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What's wrong with these plants?

highstandards

New member
Ive been helping my brother get his first grow going and of course I encouraged him to go organic. So, we basically replicated what I am doing (with success) but we cant seem to replicate the results. In fact, his grow isn't looking too good at all now and to be honest i'm not really sure why.

These are Bubbas in 7g Roots pots with amended Roots Organicspotting soil. The soil mix was 10 bags of Roots, 5 cups mexican guano 10cups indonesian guano, 2 cups dolomite, 40lbs worm castings. It was allowed to sit for a few days before use and I have used much more guano on this strain even earlier on with no ill effects after having no time to sit.

His room is brand new, freshly drywalled, texture coated, and painted. having only been done a couple days before the plants were moved in. They were uppotted to the 7g's with this soil mix for about 5 days before being moved into the room, and they were in perfect condition when they were moved. Since then, the rate of growth doesnt seem to have slowed, but there are some serious problems with the leaf surfaces now and with their coloration. These plants have very thick stems and trunks, robust and bright white root systems and otherwise seem to be very healthy.






Thy look alot like the soil was too hot for them, but im growing the same strain (clones from the same batch even) in a much hotter mix and not seeing any issues. And I didnt think the mix was very hot anyway. There has also been some underwatering going on. He was watering consistently but the bottoms of the pots dried out while the top stayed moist. OR is it an environmental issue since the growth rate and all other signs of the plants health are good?

Ive instructed him to use ACTs as much as possible until the problem corrects itself but a decision is going to need to be made soon on whether or not this crop can be salvaged in time to flip them at the proper height.

Any opinions appreciated!
 
10 bags of Roots plus 40lbs of Castings is at a minimum 70 gals of soil. An aeration amendment should have been used.

The thing that really stands out is 2 cups of dolomite lime. Thats 32 tablespoons which is less than 1/2 tablespoon per gallon.

The guanos you added provide plenty of N and P. Where's the K?? Kelp meal should have been added.

From the info provided, I would give them some CalMag. Topdress with Kelp and Ewc. Make teas with EWC, kelp meal and molasses.

Peace
 

highstandards

New member
10 bags of Roots plus 40lbs of Castings is at a minimum 70 gals of soil. An aeration amendment should have been used.

The thing that really stands out is 2 cups of dolomite lime. Thats 32 tablespoons which is less than 1/2 tablespoon per gallon.

The guanos you added provide plenty of N and P. Where's the K?? Kelp meal should have been added.

From the info provided, I would give them some CalMag. Topdress with Kelp and Ewc. Make teas with EWC, kelp meal and molasses.

Peace
They've been given kelp meal tea as well as been top dressed with the remaining kelp and it seemed like it was right after that that the problems started. Also been given ewc tea with molasses. They've also been top dressed heavily with castings a couple of times now.

Are you suggesting this is a calmag or a K deficiency? I've been able to grow plants this far on plain roots alone, so that would be surprising.

There is still a whole lot of perlite in this mix also, do you think not enough aeration amendment is an issue?
 
B

BlueJayWay

^^^^ I'd agree with all that (rancho deluxe), especially given 'em some kelp meal tea.

When you say basically replicated, what makes it basically and not exactly?

That's where I would start to find out why an otherwise identical grow is not performing identically.

I would've done at least 5 cups of lime, 10 cups of both guanos, and additional 10 cups kelp meal and probably some limestone, gypsum, alfalfa, azomite that I have too much of layin' around :D

and plenty of additional aeration material like rice hulls/perlite to offset the added castings.

The top pictures though look like results from undermixed soil/not "cooked" (pockets of too high nutes from guanos) or overamended/under "cooked" (which bag of roots were used?) bottom pics look like pictures i've seen of magnesium deficiency
 

highstandards

New member
^^^^ I'd agree with all that (rancho deluxe), especially given 'em some kelp meal tea.

When you say basically replicated, what makes it basically and not exactly?

That's where I would start to find out why an otherwise identical grow is not performing identically.

I would've done at least 5 cups of lime, 10 cups of both guanos, and additional 10 cups kelp meal and probably some limestone, gypsum, alfalfa, azomite that I have too much of layin' around :D

and plenty of additional aeration material like rice hulls/perlite to offset the added castings.

The top pictures though look like results from undermixed soil/not "cooked" (pockets of too high nutes from guanos) or overamended/under "cooked" (which bag of roots were used?) bottom pics look like pictures i've seen of magnesium deficiency
He didn't have any kelp meal at the time he mixed he soil so we went without it, considering I have grown plants to this stage in plain roots, I i didn't think it would matter too much. And more importantly, they were looking great by the time we applied a kelp meal tea and the problems seem to have started after that.

This is the Roots potting soil, idk if you guys are familiar with it or not but it has alot of perlite to start with. I've used subcools soil mix with it and even more worm castings without any problems in the past. I'm definitely leaning towards it most likely being a lockout or "uncooked" soil. There are some clear signs of what looks like a cal/mag deficiency so the advice of calmag we're going to apply in the form of a foliar spray tonight.

The only things that are different between his and my grows are that I used about double the amount of Mexican guano per gallon and that I'm in 10g roots pots compared to his 7g and my soil sat a little longer before use. I figured using less Mexican guano would've prevented any problems from not "cooking" long enough, and I surely thought the ACT would handle the rest but the pants are still complaining weeks later.
 

skullznroses

that aint nothing but 10 cent lovin
Veteran
uncooked soil is not the problem... its PH leading to lockout

you don't need cal if you used lime... your PH is off Im telling you

Ive seen tons of plants grown without Kelp (low K) or Calmag
 

highstandards

New member

I just read that link and a couple of things stick out to me:

First cause listed is "a specific mineral deficiency.. Magnesium"

And secondly "A soil ph at which mineral become Unavailable for consumption"

I would also have thought that "waterlogged roots" might have played a role but these plants have been too dry if anything.

So this could be a magnesium deficiency (which could be caused by improper ph, which in turns causes a nitrogen and calcium deficiency)
 

highstandards

New member
uncooked soil is not the problem... its PH leading to lockout

you don't need cal if you used lime... your PH is off Im telling you

Ive seen tons of plants grown without Kelp (low K) or Calmag

I think youre right. Why would it be off? How am I supposed to adjust it? I thought the worm castings and ACT would help self regulate ph
 
Id be leaning on ph related issues before anything else and in that regard my first impression is your a little high. Also someone said no K...roots has greendsand,coco, kelp meal and alfalfa, all those contain K and if he just transplanted that is for sure not the answer..
 

Ember1

Member
What water are you using? Tap/RO? Are you adjusting pH at each watering? How are they being watered? Anything being added to the water/tea? Maybe something he is adding without your knowledge.
 

nukklehead

Active member
uncooked soil is not the problem... its PH leading to lockout

you don't need cal if you used lime... your PH is off Im telling you

Ive seen tons of plants grown without Kelp (low K) or Calmag

Not starting a urinating match but as much as I like to adhere to the organic culture, my local water is so high in ph that I have to intervene. I think for the most part if you are organic and the ph of your tap is reasonable there is no problem. Some of us live with extreme ph water and have to deal with it. Im not a pro but looks like ph lockout to me
 

bignugs

Member
Roots organic is ph balanced and should be good to go right out of the bag..Of course your not going to have a water only grow for an extended amount of time without amending the soil with NPK meals and fertilizer.
What makes the difference in a balanced soil ph in organics is the compost and quality....

The guanos you amended the soil with take a long time to break down and don't think your getting any benefit from that at this point...
Adding kelp, as an act or, otherwise is not going to show the symptoms you have and is one of the top meals you can add to a soil blend...

When subcool blends his soil(roots organic)he only uses 1 cup dolomite lime to (8) 1.5cf bags and your using 5 cups...

It looks like your plant is suffering from a mag deficiency caused by the additional lime and locking out magnesium. It's most important to have calcium and magnesium balanced or, they will work against each other.

The only other possibility I can offer is their is something in the GR causing off gassing like the paint etc...
 
It's pretty much standard operating procedure for most people to add 2tbs dolomite lime per gal.

I don't want to get into the great pH debate, it's not your problem...that's all I'm sayin.

How long have the plants been in the current soil mix? Were they in 2's 3's or 5's before being transplanted? Out of curiosity what is the RH of the room? Low RH can cause K uptake probelms...I'm battling that myself right now. Same mix that works great in the fall/winter/spring gets pissy in the summer when its super dry.

Did you add kelp meal to the soil your plants are in? Oh yeah very familiar with Roots Organic. Yes I would add more aeration amendments to your mix still. Big difference between a 7g pot and a 10g. I didn't mention it before but if those were my plants I would have transplanted them yesterday.

Curious when SeaMaiden, CC, Scrappy and the rest chime in.
 

Gascanastan

Gone but NOT forgotten...
Veteran
Lockout....
...topdress with EWC or compost.

Then remember this standard rule....
1 cup of dolomite lime per cubic foot of peat....(1 to 2 tablespoons per gallon)...NOT soil mix....for the PEAT MOSS...Or if you had built a complete organic soil the humic material from EWC or compost would take care of it.

Adding kelp to an incomplete organic soil mix will compound your problems....like even possibly putting the ph up around 10.0...yeah really.

I use this lime mix...for the % of peat moss in my soil on the initial mix....but after that and 3 years later on the same soil the only ph adjusting I need anymore comes from EWC or compost added on later re-amends.

The 3-way lime mix based off Steve Soloman's lime mix....used by a few around here.

1 part dolomite
2 parts oyster shell powder
1 part agricultural gypsum

..oh yeah,and don't trust bagged soil mixes....they are inconsistent. If I were to buy ANY peat based bagged soil mix I would automatically add an appropriate lime mix and a small % EWC or compost.
 

highstandards

New member
When subcool blends his soil(roots organic)he only uses 1 cup dolomite lime to (8) 1.5cf bags and your using 5 cups...

It looks like your plant is suffering from a mag deficiency caused by the additional lime and locking out magnesium. It's most important to have calcium and magnesium balanced or, they will work against each other.

The only other possibility I can offer is their is something in the GR causing off gassing like the paint etc...
He only used 2 cups. It seems unlikely that off gassing would be the problem but how would one even know? Just curious.
 

highstandards

New member
Lockout....
...topdress with EWC or compost.

Then remember this standard rule....
1 cup of dolomite lime per cubic foot of peat....(1 to 2 tablespoons per gallon)...NOT soil mix....for the PEAT MOSS...Or if you had built a complete organic soil the humic material from EWC or compost would take care of it.

Adding kelp to an incomplete organic soil mix will compound your problems....like even possibly putting the ph up around 10.0...yeah really.

I use this lime mix...for the % of peat moss in my soil on the initial mix....but after that and 3 years later on the same soil the only ph adjusting I need anymore comes from EWC or compost added on later re-amends.

The 3-way lime mix based off Steve Soloman's lime mix....used by a few around here.

1 part dolomite
2 parts oyster shell powder
1 part agricultural gypsum

..oh yeah,and don't trust bagged soil mixes....they are inconsistent. If I were to buy ANY peat based bagged soil mix I would automatically add an appropriate lime mix and a small % EWC or compost.

You make some good points here and I'll keep that lime mix in mind for the future. Can you elaborate on how the kelp would raise ph? The problems seemed to start directly after the kelp application.
 

ixnay007

"I can't remember the last time I had a blackout"
Veteran
I think kelp has a fairly high PH, lots of the liquids use acids to lower the PH to around 5, I believe.
 
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