Trying to avoid installing a sub-panel - thoughts?

[simpleword]

get under that house and stop being a pussy. the widows dont bother ya. was just under my pad running a line myself.about 45 minutes in a tight crawl space with friendly spiders.

Haha, I am, I am. Understand that I've done this before but the house I own now has literally the worst infestation of black widows I've ever seen, I'm talking thick webs draping from top to bottom, everywhere. There's literally hundreds upon hundreds of them, not just one here and there. This will be quite an endeavor!

 

[northstate]

Sounds like a job for a Tyvek suit, headlamp and a mask. Looks good and you know what your doing, no sweat. Rives has LOTS of electrical knowledge and just wanted to say thanks for helping folks stay safe.NS

 

[supermanlives]

my pad is the same way. me and the spiders have an understanding. i dont kill them and they dont bite me.i did wear my zip up suit tho as its dirty under there lol. had a few crawl on me no big deal i aint a bug.my pad has only one entrance so i had to crawl under the whole house to get where i wanted.not something i would want to do often

 

[Maj.Cottonmouth]

Do you not have an attic you can run the line through? All my wiring is in my attic.

 

[simpleword]

Do you not have an attic you can run the line through? All my wiring is in my attic.

Unfortunately no, modular home.

my pad is the same way. me and the spiders have an understanding. i dont kill them and they dont bite me.i did wear my zip up suit tho as its dirty under there lol. had a few crawl on me no big deal i aint a bug.my pad has only one entrance so i had to crawl under the whole house to get where i wanted.not something i would want to do often

Hahaha, good deal. I just ordered a cheap tyvek suit on Amazon. Same here, one entrance, right by the main breaker, however the room is on the opposite side of the house, so I'll be going the distance.

 

[Shafto]

Interesting device, Shafto, but at that price it would scare the shit out of me. The following link is for a mid-grade 1 kva transformer, which would theoretically have half of the capacity of the all-in-one unit that you linked. I was talking about a code-compliant installation with UL approved components, thus the ground rod for the derived neutral.

Think about it - the unit you linked is roughly the same cost as a replacement ballast for a 1kw hps. No enclosure, no fusing or breakers, no switches or receptacles, and an autotransformer ballast which is a fraction of the price of a power transformer. Cute little gadget, though!


http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ACME-ELECTRIC-Transformer-4WUD5?Pid=search

Rives I'm not so sure you should be so quick to judge just because you aren't familiar with it.

I have been using two of these in my shop to allow myself to draw more amps from the panel for well over 8 years, and never had a single issue with anything, even using devices with massive inductance like a table saw.

The link I posted is just one of the top links on google, you can find similar prices for similar devices all over the net. If you want to spend a bit more you can get one with a CSA or UL certification.

By completely discounting this advantageous solution you could be costing the op a lot more money, and even a nasty spider bite!

I encourage the op to do their own research on using a voltage transformer. This is not a weird or dangerous device, you have transformers all over your house already in various devices.

By far and away the best solution to this problem.

 

[rives]

Rives I'm not so sure you should be so quick to judge just because you aren't familiar with it.

I have been using two of these in my shop to allow myself to draw more amps from the panel for well over 8 years, and never had a single issue with anything, even using devices with massive inductance like a table saw.

The link I posted is just one of the top links on google, you can find similar prices for similar devices all over the net. If you want to spend a bit more you can get one with a CSA or UL certification.

By completely discounting this advantageous solution you could be costing the op a lot more money, and even a nasty spider bite!

I encourage the op to do their own research on using a voltage transformer. This is not a weird or dangerous device, you have transformers all over your house already in various devices.

By far and away the best solution to this problem.

Glad that they've worked out for you, Shafto. Those converters may be fine, but without being able to personally examine one I have to rely on 30+ years experience with transformers and other electrical components. When I see a complete device that costs a fraction of what one mid-grade component in it would cost on the domestic market, red flags go up. Transformers are certainly not a weird device, but they damn sure have the potential to be a dangerous one, hence the extensive requirements by the NEC on their installation. Yes, transformers are ubiquitous in electrical equipment, but they are usually tiny and electrically remote from the end user. Even those are relatively expensive for quality components - the transformers that I used in my light fixture's peripheral power supplies were only rated for 15 watts and were about $15 each.

To draw an example more from your field, would you expect to get the same level of functionality out of a LED fixture that cost 10-25% of what quality LEDs alone would cost?

*edit* If you have the option of running a load like a table saw at 240v rather than 120v, you will get far better performance from the motor at the higher voltage. Voltage drop sharply impacts motor torque, and if you can run at a higher initial voltage the losses are much less.

 

[Shafto]

Think about it - the unit you linked is roughly the same cost as a replacement ballast for a 1kw hps. No enclosure, no fusing or breakers, no switches or receptacles, and an autotransformer ballast which is a fraction of the price of a power transformer. Cute little gadget, though!

Your pricing rational is flawed as I see it. You are comparing grainger prices to direct from China prices, you're gonna pay 5X as much for the same thing right off the bat.

Also, these units use an autotransformer, not an isolated "power transformer".

If you take a 1000Watt HPS ballast which costs about $70-80 from a lighting supply place, add an enclosure and exchange the igniter and the capacitor for a couple plug receptacles and $0.10 fuses, you can easily see how a device like this can be produced for that cost.

If you think something like one of these transformers is unsafe, then you had better get rid of every magnetic lighting ballast in your house, all your fluorescent and HID lighting, cause it's basically the exact same thing.

Using grainger and comparing an industrial/commercial transformer component to an all in one unit from overseas is ridiculous, but I think you knew that already and were just trying to make your point.

Check grainger for an HPS igniter or capacitor, it'll be $20-25 each, if you use that price to try and rationalize how an entire HPS ballast can sell for $70, it wouldn't make much sense either.

Edit, I just checked cause I was curious. That caps and ignitors are more like $50 each! An entire 1000W mag ballast on grainger goes for over $500!!!!! Crazy ridiculous... I'm sure you can definitely see now that one of these units I've been posting about isn't so bad after all with your price rational, in fact they're perfectly fine.

 

[rives]

Using a transformer and 120V actually causes the saw to spin up faster and have more torque than straight off of 240V because of the inductance stored in the windings of the transformer.

Your dreaming, Shafto. A 10% reduction in nameplate voltage causes results in 80% motor torque. A 20% reduction drops you to 64%. If you are pulling 10 amps on a 240v circuit, 12 gauge wire, 40' from the panel you will see a .66% voltage drop. Same load converted to 120v, now pulling 20 amps, results in a 2.64% voltage drop.

Regarding the autotransformer, they are rarely used in power circuits because of their undesirable impacts on the power lines. Their sole advantage is that they are cheap.

 

[Shafto]

Shit.. you quoted that before I deleted it, I thought it would draw things off topic and it did...

Back on topic,

Your price rational was flawed based on ridiculous inflation from grainger, and the $70-80 transformer doing basically the same job as a $70-80 magnetic ballast is perfectly safe to use.

I'm sure you can see this, your a smart guy and the evidence is irrefutable at this point.


If I was the op and I didn't know about electricity in depth, I would probably be leaning towards a sub panel myself, as that's what everyone here is saying, because that's all anyone here knows.

Check it out for yourself, get more amps freed up in your grow for more lighting or what-not, and no need to spend the money and time running the wire. You can buy a 240V-120V UL listed, CSA approved, completely compliant with your home owner insurance transformer, plug it into a 240V receptacle, and then plug 120v devices directly into it. Very simple, very effective, no downside what-so-ever.

Maybe these guys should send in their transformer for Rive's approval, probably a hell of a lot cheaper than UL or CSA testing, and seems to carry more weight.

 

[rives]

Shafto, what you are advocating would be similar to me insisting that a half-wave rectified 120vac line feeding a string of leds is the equivalent of a Meanwell driver. As I said, glad it works for you, and as a short-term solution, it's probably ok. I wouldn't even consider it for a permanent installation.

 

[Shafto]

And what gives you the authority to say that a device rated for constant use by UL and CSA should not be used for such things?

The fact is Rives, neither of us are qualified to make that designation, it takes a team of people, which has been done, by CSA, and UL, at the cost of thousands of dollars.

It's like me trying to tell you that you got your computer for too good of a deal and you shouldn't be using it cause it's unsafe... It really is that ridiculous. Transformers are prevalent and in everything around you, in all electronic devices.

 

[rives]

Authority? I don't need no steenking authority!

There is no way in hell that the "converter" that you linked is UL or CSA approved. You obviously need to research autotransformers and their intended usages, as well as what they are specifically not recommended for. I find your vehement defense of some cheap Chinese crap both surprising and amusing, but contradictory to my impression of you. I think that you are arguing for the sake for argument.

 

[Shafto]

The link I posted is just one of the top links on google, you can find similar prices for similar devices all over the net. If you want to spend a bit more you can get one with a CSA or UL certification.

.

 

[rives]

Check it out for yourself, get more amps freed up in your grow for more lighting or what-not, and no need to spend the money and time running the wire.

Not to keep this going unnecessarily, but I thought that this needed to be touched on for the sake of future readers. Changing your voltage does not "free up" some amps. Your service can supply "X" number of watts, and while you can diddle the relationship of the volts and amps, the watts remain constant. VxA=W. If you double the voltage, the amps are cut in half, and conversely if you halve the voltage, the amps double.

You will frequently hear that running things on 240v is cheaper than 120v. This is incorrect, because the power company recognizes the above relationship and bills you for your wattage used. The saving comes in the infrastructure - you can run smaller wire, conduit, etc, if you run a higher voltage because the amperage has been reduced.

 

[Shafto]

Not to keep this going unnecessarily, but I thought that this needed to be touched on for the sake of future readers. Changing your voltage does not "free up" some amps. Your service can supply "X" number of watts, and while you can diddle the relationship of the volts and amps, the watts remain constant. VxA=W. If you double the voltage, the amps are cut in half, and conversely if you halve the voltage, the amps double.

You will frequently hear that running things on 240v is cheaper than 120v. This is incorrect, because the power company recognizes the above relationship and bills you for your wattage used. The saving comes in the infrastructure - you can run smaller wire, conduit, etc, if you run a higher voltage because the amperage has been reduced.

Rives I feel like you know the transformer suggestion is now a good one, and you're trying to find something else to pick on me about.

I am really very surprised by your misjudgement here Rives. Changing the voltage most definitely does free up amps, you even just mentioned it bellow claiming that it doesn't

Your words:

"Changing your voltage does not "free up" some amps."

"If you double the voltage, the amps are cut in half"


You will pay based on the watts you use, you are correct about that, but drawing 240V from your panel instead of 120V will draw half the Amps, and therefore allow you to run double the wattage that you could at 120V, you will have to pay for it indeed, it won't be any less money, but I never said that.

Example: If you have a 10A AC and a 10A chiller at 120V, you could run them both to a 2000W transformer and run the transformer from a 240V 15A double pole breaker. Without the transformer you would need a single pole 120V 15A breaker for each. Or you can use two 1000W ballasts on 240V 15A, while you can only run one at 120V.

I'm sure you must know all of this, or that would be quite scary given your qualification. Seems you twisted the words up a bit in an effort to discredit me.

 

[rives]

Example: If you have a 10A AC and a 10A chiller at 120V, you could run them both to a 2000W transformer and run the transformer from a 240V 15A double pole breaker. Without the transformer you would need a single pole 120V 15A breaker for each. Or you can use two 1000W ballasts on 240V 15A, while you can only run one at 120V.

I'm sure you must know all of this, or that would be quite scary given your qualification. Seems you twisted the words up a bit in an effort to discredit me.

Absolutely not trying to discredit you, Shafto, just trying to clear up the muddy water. The emphasized portion above is exactly the point I was trying to make - by going to a 240v 15a double-pole breaker, you now have the precise equivalent of (2) 120v 15a single-pole breakers. It takes those same two 120v hot legs to make up the 240v. They can either be attached to (1) 240v double-pole breaker or (2) 120v single-pole breakers. There is no free lunch.

 

[Shafto]

Absolutely not trying to discredit you, Shafto, just trying to clear up the muddy water. The emphasized portion above is exactly the point I was trying to make - by going to a 240v 15a double-pole breaker, you now have the precise equivalent of (2) 120v 15a single-pole breakers. It takes those same two 120v hot legs to make up the 240v. They can either be attached to (1) 240v double-pole breaker or (2) 120v single-pole breakers. There is no free lunch.

You did imply that going to 240V gives no advantage when it clearly does, you can hook up twice the amount of equipment to the same wire. I do see the point you're trying to make, I guess we're both getting at the same thing here.