Help designing NGB-style cabinet w/LEDs

[Socrates]

Hi again all.

Note: I have changed the plan since I first posted, and edited this accordingly.

I've been out of the game for some time, but it's good to be back! I am operating under some serious space constraints at the moment, so I am in the process of designing a stealth cabinet, probably NGB style but a bit larger. I'd really appreciate some advice from all you micro experts!

In order to minimize heat, and therefore ventilation requirements, I'm looking at flowering with LEDs this time around, though I've never used them before (I've got a few runs with HPS/MH and fluoros under my belt). I'll be vegging with two 32W 6500k CFLs. I don't need the best of the best for yield, just enough for my partner and me and the occasional friend. Will likely be just doing a few plants scrogged in organic soil.

After reading some threads here on ICMag, I think I'm looking at cheaper versions of lights like the BlackDiamond Raptor Elite X3 or Diamond Series XML - so around 130-140W. Here's the light I'm currently leaning toward: http://www.bsled.com/led-grow-light/h158d-140w.html

In terms of ventilation, I'm going for negative pressure with passive intakes in the veg cab (about 2:1 ratio to exhaust), through flower chamber, and then have two 120mm fans with decent static pressure stacked, pulling through a can filter. Cab size would be about 11"W X 19"D X 32"H for veg and 20"W X 19"D X 58"H for flower. I'm hoping that if the temps stay reasonably low with the LED, I only need a little negative pressure to make sure air is being scrubbed and isn't leaking out. Stealth is more important to me than yields at this point, so keeping noise low is a priority.

Thanks for reading through this long thread (apologies!). I've done as much reading as I can, but it would be really helpful to hear specific advice on my situation from the pros.

Much love and respect.

 

[grouchy]

Do you already have the cab on hand? A good decoy can allow you more noise without blowing your cover. If you used a dresser or stand to hold a fish tank on top you could cover up the noise with an air pump and some water trickling. This would also allow you to keep a good source of water that you can keep ph'd and oxygenated.

I have wanted to do an LED grow in a fish tank stand for a while now. I imagined building my own diy LED panel on a water cooled heatsink. I could then route some tank water through the heatsink to cool the lights and heat up the water for the fish without using a heater.

Pulling your air through the veg chamber without enough cfms can really heat up your flower room. I have struggled with this in my current ngb cab trying to use two 120mm fans and a scrubber with no hint of noise standing right next to it. I am also not working in a temp controlled environment to start with so I need the warmth from the veg chamber for lights out in winter but dread it for lights on in the summer. I just use a couple different types of lighting depending on what I can get away with while keeping temps in check.

 

[Socrates]

Thanks for the response! I dig the fish tank stand idea, but I already have the armoire and don't have much extra space, so I will probably stick with it for now. I've checked out your cab before and really like it a lot - kickass work. Your cab's still quiet with the two fans running through the scrubber and the cooltube exhaust? Do you think this is because of the peel-n-seal? I may look into getting some if you recommend it. Do you think that with LEDs (and two CFLs for veg) that the temps would be more manageable than with all CFLs/HPS, or would you plan for a bigger fan?

Thanks again for the help. I'm trying to learn as much as I can before I build so I don't spend more time and money than necessary, though I'm sure some trial and error will still be involved.

 

[qscftffboy]

Hey love the fact that your going LED!

Dont have much time atm to read your posts to in depth but my first thought was that you should make sure if your getting a LED panel that has 3watt LED's in it that you have the headroom to run it! my 150 true watt led panel with 3w led's will bleach plants that get within a foot of the light directly below in the "hot spot"...

Will prob be back little later to re-read everything maybe give my 2 cents again for whats its worth but just thought you might want to know bout that if you didnt

 

[qscftffboy]

Also if your going for "super stealth" (Witch I have realized is harder to get then what i may have first thought) might want to see what LED panel has ?quieter? fans... A buddy got a panel and fans where so loud we actually changed them out for some nice ones.

Just food for thought.
I also personally like the negative air pressure with passive intakes, Going through the bottom with pvc piping is easy way to light proof and control airflow

 

[Socrates]

Thanks for the input! Though I've read through most of the LED-related threads, there doesn't seem to be a ton of information about the lights I'm looking at in terms of heat / fan noise, so if anyone has specific recommendations, I'm definitely all ears. Qscftffboy, if you don't mind my asking, what's the 150W panel you're using, and would you recommend it?

With regards to the 3W vs 1W issue - I hadn't considered the problem of bleaching, though I've read that the blue diodes especially can hurt the plants if they get too close. I am planning to LST/SCROG and flower pretty early, so hopefully I'll be able to keep them a decent distance from the lights, though I was planning on leaving more like 8-10". Are 1W diodes much better in this regard? Though they are generally more efficient (I believe), and some of the best diodes (CREE) only come in 1W flavors, it seems difficult to find reasonably priced lights with enough wattage and 1W chipsets. I'm trying not to spend more than $350 on a flowering light, so my options are fairly limited.

I'm definitely planning on passive intake (blacked-out PVC elbows) on the bottom and an exhaust at the top - I just want to make sure I have enough power from the computer fans to push through a Can 705 or small homemade scrubber. Anyone have suggestions about how to best achieve this with 120mm radial fans? I was thinking of having one pulling through the scrubber to the outside of the box, and another (maybe slightly lower cfm?) pushing air into the scrubber from the flower chamber. Does that make sense, or is there a better way to do it?

Thanks again for the advice!

 

[qscftffboy]

Howdy! My panel is a spectra from GLH. Im almost through my first whole run with this LED so ill let you know how I feel about it in 2 weeks. So far so good! I think I might hit a QP of good DENSE! buds, really though these things are harder then rocks... but anyways that's in just under 3 square feet (floorspace).. but back to you...

I think the Eshine will be a better product all around... Guessing you will need at least a foot of headroom for it though, I called GLH when i got my light and he said id need atleast 14" but at 11 inch's (roughly) a few tips bleached.. And guessing since you will have more power then me you will need same or more headroom??

Think the Eshine fans may be slightly louder then the other panel but much ?easyer? to change out for some nice 120mm's, plus with fans that size you will be stirrin up a lot of air and that's always a plus in my eyes.

As far as your fan situation I dun know if Case fans will do a filter the size your going to need unless they are pretty scary fans (your going to need a good filter, LED makes them stink in my opinion...) I guess some of the new dynamic fluid fans get pretty nice all around (really though) but pretty spendy. just do like 2 that are slightly spaced (doesn't really work if directly stacked) before and figure out a way to do one more fan after? think the ones before filter are maybe a little more inportant and if the are before the filter the filter will act as a muffler!

Guess that's my 2cent (we up to 4 cent now!)

Will b around! Q

 

[Socrates]

Thanks again for the help, qscftffboy. In order to make sure I don't run out of headroom and run into bleaching issues, I'm actually redesigning my cab to be split vertically rather than horizontally. So less floor room (about 19X19 for flower, 12X19 for veg), which rules out the eShine and makes a square or UFO-style light more suitable. So now I'm looking at these two:

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...hipping-hot-sale-in-USA/111219_608292600.html

http://www.bsled.com/led-grow-light/h158d-140w.html

Any reason to go with one versus the other (the prices are fairly comparable)?

Also, I'm thinking of just using a couple of daylight CFLs for the veg chamber to cut costs, rather than a 45W LED panel. However, I'm concerned that, combined with the main flowering light, they will put too much heat for a computer fan or two pulling through the scrubber. I may just try it and upgrade to an LED panel if temps are a problem. Thoughts?

 

[grouchy]

If a couple cfls are to much just go with one. If the mothers are not producing enough sprouts for clones with just one then upgrade. Moms and clones do not need much light.

 

[Socrates]

Awesome, I'm going to go with two 32w 6500k CFLs for the veg chamber at the moment. Thanks!

Last question for now: would you go with the Can 705 or the Can 2600 for this space? I've got the space for either. I have two decent 120mm fans (one 69CMF with I think 2.6mm H2O static pressure, the other ~90CFM with around 2.8mm H2O I believe) that I now want to set up pulling stacked, but with some space between. So I would have one fan right on the cab, a few inches of ducting, second fan, ducting, then the scrubber horizontal right above the LED fixture, so that its fans are blowing at the scrubber.

First option, the 705 (http://www.canfilters.com/canfilters_700series.html). Even with the pressure drop, my fans should be able to handle this. It says it has a max effective CFM of 26. My whole cab is about 19 CF. Will this thing allow me to move enough air? Also, does anyone have any idea how to attach one of these things to ducting? It doesn't seem to have a way to attach a normal flange like the others.

The other option: Can 2600 (http://www.canfilters.com/canfilters_2600.html). This might be overkill for my fans, but it might also have less pressure restriction since it's larger.

As you can tell by the flange question, I'm not very experienced with ventilation (wasn't a concern with my previous arrangement). I'm not even sure how I'm going to attach my fans to the ducting, except perhaps with a lot of aluminum tape. So, any advice you all have about how to set this up would be very much appreciated.

 

[qscftffboy]

Hey Socra! glad to see your still making progress!

Wish i could help you more about your venting questions but from what i have found is that that the only way to get venting figured out is to test many things, Or over do it the first time and call it good. If you go the testing route yes alot of foil tape will be consumed! Think we all have been there.. Also recommend hot glue and zipties!

As far as filter take the one you get the best vibes from... I don't really know that much about those smaller filters But i do have a feeling your going to need more fan power for rest of box just for general air circulation. have you looked into the dynamic fluid fans? they are pretty silent! and cheap for the small ones work great for canopy breeze!

Cannot remember where but somewhere on this great site a fellow micro boxer had a great method of attaching case fans of multiple sizes.. hmm... cant find it (sorry fellow inovator!)... used a drain thing

http://www.lowes.com/pd_115333-676-2_0__?Ntt=nds+4"+square+grate&productId=3514296&rpp=16

(Sorry don't know if i was alowed to put up a link like this!)

One of these things and cut out the grate and glued square side to fan, and other side to PVC or whatever works! !!!

Anyway hope this helps!

 

[grouchy]

If you have a walmart close by you can just build a filter. I used an idea I saw in verdant green's thread but changed it slightly for square fans. I think it works great and you can increase or decrease the amount of carbon you are pulling through. It also provides the spacer needed for the two fans and is very compact. It can be mounted straight to the ceiling of the cab and vents right out.

It is a square snap lock food container, some aquarium activated charcoal, a little aluminum mesh (gutter guard) and some polyfill quilt batting. I cut a hole in the lid and mounted one fan on the outside of the lid and straight to the box. I then cut a hole in the bottom and mounted the other fan to the outside. On the inside I put some aluminum mesh over the fan hole followed by some quilt batting and then filled it up with carbon. Then just snap the container to the mounted lid/fan and plug em in.

Hope that helps!

 

[Socrates]

Hi all,

First, I know this is a lot to read through with no pics. I will work on getting some up as soon as I scrub the EXIF data. Thanks for your patience!

Here's where I am currently. I've got things set up with two 32w CFLs in the veg chamber. A PC fan is blowing on the CFLs toward the vent to the drying chamber (directly above the veg chamber), which then opens into the flowering chamber. There, I have a 140w LED and a small carbon scrubber. It's only rated for 26CFM, so I'm just using one 90cfm computer fan with adjustable voltage for exhaust.

Because I only have the one fan pulling, temps are a little on the high side - mid to high 80s in both chambers (though little radiant heat), roughly 10-12 degrees above ambient. So, I've got a few questions:

1.) Is this an acceptable temp range? I've read that the optimum heat under LEDs is actually higher than with other lighting, and that 85-90 is good, though this is contested. I'm more worried about the veg/clone chamber. Do I need to work on making that cooler?

2.) Would getting a larger scrubber (maybe one rated at 90CFM?) improve airflow even if I don't change the fan? I like the fan (panaflow?), it has pretty high static pressure and is relatively quiet. With a cab this size, though, I think I may want to be moving a bit more air. I can go to my original plan of stacking fans, but that would way overwhelm this little scrubber.

Anyway, I'd love to hear your input. What would you do? The thing is pretty darn stealthy right now: quiet enough that nobody would notice it unless they were REALLY paying attention, no light leaks, power supply hidden - just a regular cabinet. Given this, and the fact that I just need enough for my partner and myself, should I worry about temps? Or are things okay as they are, as long as the scrubber is able to move enough air to prevent smell issues (I figure that since the cab is less than 26 cubic feed, even if the exhaust only cycles the cab once a minute that should take care of smell)?

 

[Socrates]

Here's the cab closed with the lights on:

And inside (a bit before construction was completed, but you get the idea):

 

[mnitg]

nice

 

[#1cheesebuds]

wow that is a sweet looking cab...

 

[medmaker420]

looking great!

can't wait to see the results!

where is the intake air going to come from with both sections of the cabinet?

 

[StoopheadFred]

So you went with the Bysen LED eh? I've really been considering investing in these as well. Did you order straight from China?

If so, how did you pay? And what did they end up charging you for it?

 

[Socrates]

@mnitg, #1cheesebuds: Thanks, means a lot!

@medmaker420: Thanks to you too, your project has been one of the inspirations for my setup. The intake comes from two 4.5" holes in the back beneath the bottom shelf (I left about 15" below the veg and flower chambers for storage of nutes, tools, etc). The air comes up from beneath that cloning shelf, and then up through the drying box and into the flower chamber. Gonna have a few little fans circulating air within the cabinet, but I think that's about 2:1 intake:exhaust, so I should be alright (I hope).

@StoopheadFred: I did indeed order from Bysen directly. I paid with Paypal, and shipped to my door (promptly) by FedEx, the total cost was in the low $200s (I think around $230). They were very helpful, and gave me the option of customizing. I haven't had to deal with any warranty issues, so I can't comment about how that will be, but I'm hoping that the modular design will help in that regard: if a panel goes out, they can ship me a new one and I can keep the light going in the meantime.

 

[medmaker420]

Socrates on the modular design. I do agree it was one thing I too was excited to test that style out. Not compared to the #3 and #4 light ( which #4 had a driver go out on ) they too could be considered modular as far as it having multiple drivers that control certain sets of leds.

The drawback that I can see with the #3 and #4 lights I am testing would be is if actual leds themselves burn or go out as I would wonder how that would get fixed. Now with the #1 and #2 they could send a module etc but with #3 and #4 I wonder how they fix that besides having a grower send the entire unit out?

Now I am not sure how often these leds actually burn out BUT it is still a question I have and assume other grower do as well.

Congrats on getting the light and can't wait to see how your spectrum works for you. Did you go with a stock spectrum setup? I know sometimes they have decent stock setups and others it just makes sense to get something semi custom based on a growers current research.

Glad to see more jumping into the testing phase of leds though and can't wait for the yield results to come in from all our grows. I have a TON of girls under these 4 led panels now, you will see in my update which is being posted today.

I have the first set ( which you have been following in my videos ) then I have another batch which is my own cross THEN I am germinating Field Marshall Seeds strains lbk and kushy haze so there will be ALOT of different strains being played with LOL.

This is a blast!

What do you think of the temps in there? Since the veg panels I am testing are blue only I can't compare red/blue with them but I can touch these leds and don't even need an exhaust fan taking the temps out of any of the tents which blows my mind to be honest.