Dicomaco's Vertical Redemption/reboot Summer 2011

[gardenbug]

Looks great Dico

I usually chop those weak branches that stay in the dark pretty early. 5 or 6 weeks from now you'll be happy you did. If you've already thinned out the fan leaves, and can't space the branches apart from each other....whoever is the least productive will have to go. I try to keep my wall canopy only a couple inches thick.

Don't be afraid to prune bro. I prune quite a bit, and at the end of the grow, I always wish I had pruned more. Its a learning curve for sure tho


Badass grow so far bro.

I agree with pretty much all of that.
I would chop that branch unless it is now in direct light, even then it might not catch up.

I almost always wish I pruned more. Last time by the end my total vegetation removed probably equaled the total amount left on the plant. I remove in steps though. I tend to trim the backs and lower branches, wait a week or two then defoliate the inside, wait a few more weeks and defoliate some more. Each time it stalls them a few days but makes up for it in the end. I may have done a little too much last time. I've added more light this round so I'm trying a bit less pruning to see if the extra light is able to fill them out.

The bigger the light the thicker your canopy can be. Try to keep the buds spaced out from each other. If they are touching each other they are not getting lights to the part that are touching. I used to train them closely to a screen but found the canopy was too dense and no light penetrated more than about 2 inches. I now tie them to the screen and let the branches lean inwards. They shade each other less if the branch is growing more horizontal. The branches grow horizontal and then the buds grow up vertical, this way they get light from the top of the buds and not only the side. I still haven't got it perfect, it requires a lot of training early and you won't know if you did it right for another month until they finish stretching.

 

[Dicomaco]

I agree with pretty much all of that.
I would chop that branch unless it is now in direct light, even then it might not catch up.

I almost always wish I pruned more. Last time by the end my total vegetation removed probably equaled the total amount left on the plant. I remove in steps though. I tend to trim the backs and lower branches, wait a week or two then defoliate the inside, wait a few more weeks and defoliate some more. Each time it stalls them a few days but makes up for it in the end. I may have done a little too much last time. I've added more light this round so I'm trying a bit less pruning to see if the extra light is able to fill them out.

The bigger the light the thicker your canopy can be. Try to keep the buds spaced out from each other. If they are touching each other they are not getting lights to the part that are touching. I used to train them closely to a screen but found the canopy was too dense and no light penetrated more than about 2 inches. I now tie them to the screen and let the branches lean inwards. They shade each other less if the branch is growing more horizontal. The branches grow horizontal and then the buds grow up vertical, this way they get light from the top of the buds and not only the side. I still haven't got it perfect, it requires a lot of training early and you won't know if you did it right for another month until they finish stretching.

Awesome post!

I did some pruning yesterday, removed the inner most branches, 2-3 of each plant, plus a few fan leaves here & there.

I'm in week 3 now, but I'm thinking, isn't the plant already using a lot of unnecessary energy on all those branches that are going to get pruned off anyway? I mean if you only remove a little each weak, eventually you're at week 5, and you still remove branches at that point? How long into flower do you remove branches?

About the thickness of the canopy, I'm using 2x600watt with a distance of at little less than 2 feet (50-60 cm) between the light and the outer most flowers. Still should I only keep my canopy a couple of inches thick?

So many questions, I really hope I'll make the right decisions, because the potential is so great this time compared to my last run!

Please keep an eye on my thread, I will post some better perspective pictures of my plants every week, and hopefully some of you experienced growers can give some hints on how much to prune etc.

BTW important question, could I risk getting a less harvest by pruning too little? Or is the main reason that you prune so much that less bud sites means bigger buds and less pop corn?

Cheers

 

[gardenbug]

As the plant grows it will keep putting out more new little branches that will need taken off as they will never mature in time. If you can tell it's not going to grow up to be worth keeping then cut it off now. That's the tricky part, knowing what to trim early on. Once it gets to about 5 weeks it is usually obvious what isn't going to mature. I'm sure you can dial it in based on each strain, but I run multiple strains and don't have much time so it gets done whenever I notice little airy buds that I can tell won't turn into anything. My plants are usually about 6ft tall, 3ft wide, 2ft deep so they are quite big and can handle a few branches being removed without any trouble. Smaller plants will stall out more if you trim too much.

With 2x600 I would try 1ft-2ft away from lights with a 1ft-2ft thick canopy. It really depends on how dense it is. If you can stand behind the plant and still see a little light you are probably good, if no light penetrates through then the canopy is probably too deep or too dense.

Pruning a little will usually increase yield. Pruning a lot will lower yield, but the stuff left will be better quality. For me anything that isn't top quality goes into hash, and I usually have more hash than I need. I also hate trimming the fluffy buds, so another reason that it just goes into hash.

I think the most important part is keeping the fan leaves on the inside of the circle removed so they don't block light. With pruning you mostly just want to keep the small airy branches pruned off so they don't get in the way of the bigger buds. If they aren't blocking light to better buds you can leave them there. I've found direct light to a bud means that bud will be bigger and more mature than it would have been if left in the shade.

I've also found the bud at the end of a branches will end up the biggest. If I decide a branch needs to go I try to leave the last few buds on a branch and trim the little side branching off of it instead.

 

[Dicomaco]

As the plant grows it will keep putting out more new little branches that will need taken off as they will never mature in time. If you can tell it's not going to grow up to be worth keeping then cut it off now. That's the tricky part, knowing what to trim early on. Once it gets to about 5 weeks it is usually obvious what isn't going to mature. I'm sure you can dial it in based on each strain, but I run multiple strains and don't have much time so it gets done whenever I notice little airy buds that I can tell won't turn into anything. My plants are usually about 6ft tall, 3ft wide, 2ft deep so they are quite big and can handle a few branches being removed without any trouble. Smaller plants will stall out more if you trim too much.

With 2x600 I would try 1ft-2ft away from lights with a 1ft-2ft thick canopy. It really depends on how dense it is. If you can stand behind the plant and still see a little light you are probably good, if no light penetrates through then the canopy is probably too deep or too dense.

Pruning a little will usually increase yield. Pruning a lot will lower yield, but the stuff left will be better quality. For me anything that isn't top quality goes into hash, and I usually have more hash than I need. I also hate trimming the fluffy buds, so another reason that it just goes into hash.

I think the most important part is keeping the fan leaves on the inside of the circle removed so they don't block light. With pruning you mostly just want to keep the small airy branches pruned off so they don't get in the way of the bigger buds. If they aren't blocking light to better buds you can leave them there. I've found direct light to a bud means that bud will be bigger and more mature than it would have been if left in the shade.

I've also found the bud at the end of a branches will end up the biggest. If I decide a branch needs to go I try to leave the last few buds on a branch and trim the little side branching off of it instead.

It all makes sense to me, thank you for taking your time to answer my questions

I usually take off the biggest fan leaves that has the most obvious age on them, meaning those that have darkest stems. I believe I read in the Defoliation thread that those are the best ones to take of first, since they've served their purpose and is now mainly just using energy while the rest of the plant still has plenty of smaller fan leaves to uptake CO2 & light.
I believe this was just a theory though, but it kind of make sense to me.

Flowers are slowly beginning to swollen now, at the beginning of week 4, so it will soon be obvious to me which branches have to go.

I'm glad you mentioned "I've also found the bud at the end of a branches will end up the biggest. " - yesterday when I was in the room I was thinking this exact thing, and I've already started removing the small nodes on the inner part of the branches.

I wish I could place my plants at only 1 ft distance from the light, but that would be impossible without a cooltube or a more powerful exhaust.
I bet it would do wonders for my yield though..

One very important question.. is there some way to get an idea of how high above my top canopy can be compared to the high level of my bare bulbs? Right now, because my plants got so more bushy than I expected, the top most canopy is reaching a fair bit above the horizontal plane of my bulb, which I know is fine. What I don't know is where is the limit?

Right now my top canopy is like 25 cm above the horizontal plane of where my bulb is hanging, and I have no idea if I'm losing efficiency of the light..

Cheers

 

[CannabisFox]

I removed the 600w MH and I'm now running 2x600w HPS

That is SO awesome

here some info bout ph I'll found after reading about yours.
"In hydroponics, the nutrients are often kept at about 5.5 because the plants absorb the nutrients slightly more quickly at this Ph."
http://www.jasons-indoor-guide-to-organic-and-hydroponics-gardening.com/how-to-grow-hydro.html

It would be quite nice to see your current rh and temp to calculate the VPD...
http://www.autogrow.com/1_information/1_vpd/info_vpd.html
Think thats the point for you to optimize your system! (plus more air circulation)

Have Fun & Good Luck, I'm watchin this !

Edit:

We use tan(a) = opposite side / adjacent side

Lets say the light expand at an angle of 45° to the top of canopy.
tan45°
Distance from bulb lets say 55cm.
tan45° = opposite side / 55
We want to know how high your light gets
tan45° * 55 = opposite side
tan45° = 1
1 * 55 = 55 ^^

So your canopy can be approx. 55 cm above the lamp. Well I must admit I'm not sure about the 45° angle... have read somewhere about 30° for our lamps.. but cant proof it for I dont know where to look it up -.-''
However with 30° you would have ~31cm space in height between lamp and canopy.

mb it'll help somehow

 

[CannabisFox]

I believe I read in the Defoliation thread that those are the best ones to take of first, since they've served their purpose and is now mainly just using energy while the rest of the plant still has plenty of smaller fan leaves to uptake CO2 & light.
I believe this was just a theory though, but it kind of make sense to me.

Well it wasnt just theory but it only work well in smaller spaces and full defoliation. I would recommend not to take off the big leaves. Cause I see it the other way round that they are those one who produce more energy then using plant energy for growth.
When i remember well Heath Robinson trimmed his plants only once in week 3 of flower and it makes kind of sense to me that the plants shouldnt be "overcared" for.

edit: info bout distance bulb - plants http://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/149998-heaths-flooded-tube-vertical-post3799045.html#post3799045

 

[gardenbug]

Keeping the bulb above the tops will make the tops bigger, but you lose light. I'm finding keeping the top of the bulb just a little below the tops of the plants still fills out the top buds alright and doesn't waste much light. If you were running just one light I would run it lower around the middle of the plants so no light is wasted, but with stacked lights you already have one lower to fill out the middle.

Different strains respond differently to defoliation so the best way to figure it out is try defoliating a few plants and leave a few plants alone. I've got several vertical runs done now and I'm still experimenting with different defoliating and training ideas. If you aren't sure about something just try it on a few plants and see what happens.

Looks like your plants are pretty well packed in there. Try to keep them from overlapping each other too much. I've had plants that yielded 6oz a piece but the plant between them only 2oz because it was smaller at the start and didn't stretch as much and was crowded out. The problem with a circle is the closer to the center they get the smaller your canopy gets.

 

[Bio boy]

awsome man im copying you but weith heaths urdwc setup so wil be fun comparison
whos ya best yeilder sofar