banana buds builds a butane extraction and recovery system

[banana buds]

I run two Appion pumps and like them a lot but they are a bit light duty for this application.

But until I can afford a bad ass puppy like this: http://www.bauer-kompressoren.de/en.../mitteldruck/oellos_baureihe_15/d51/index.php

I'll have to rebuild the little farkers once in a while.

Peace RB

i really would love to be able to build a bigger unit, and fully intend to when i figure out the first issue i am seeing which is surface area on the vessel you're evaporating from. the only bigger pressure pot i find in the paint stuff is 15gal and 14.25" dia. too tall of a unit though IMO. i was looking at various vessels used in industry but there is a distinct lack of any middle ground between 15 gallons and 1500 gallons (ish, talking about huge factory vessels). if i could find something that would allow me to efficiently deal with 10lbs of butane per soak that would be awesome.

but for now we make this one work, and if we can't figure out how to scale it up bigger then we just build more machines! hehe

 

[Gray Wolf]

and you said you're packing 240g of material in your 1-1/2" x 24" column? doesn't seem like that's going to fit without some pretty seriously tight packing....

The leasee running the current Terpenator Mk I, with a 1 1/4" X 24" column is providing we with her actual numbers, and reports 237/240 grams of prime bud per load, but less than that with trim.

Her bud is dried in a 200F oven until frangible enought to scrub through a 10 mesh screen, to size it and remove all the stems

I look forward to the larger 1 1/2" column improving that slightly and have a spare column, that I will go load with her prepared material, weigh myself, and report back.

 

[Gray Wolf]

I just want to clarify my point on water temp.

GW is obviously correct, but I have a system that has a lot of surface area in the tank that's heated and 200deg F would overwhelm the pumping capability.

However, there's another reason 200deg makes my butt pucker and that's pump failure. Now again I have a system with a water jacket and can't remove the hot water from the pressure pot like the OP's system.

But... If the pump fails and you need to shut it off the tank may sit in the water bath for a while. The Appion pumps are the best I've found so far but when seals fail they usually leak to atmosphere. Which means closing all the bloody valves quick.

And nothing makes my blood pressure rise faster than a large volume of butane being heated and watching the pressure gauge going up, and up... and up...

Anyways... For safety I just think the water temp should be kept to a lower value (under 140 deg) in case the pump fails and you forget your pot of butane in the water pot. Those paint pressure pots probably don't have a great safety factor.

I've had the Promax pumps fail twice and one of the Appion pumps have a large seal failure (read big leak) but at least it made enough noise to let me know something was wrong. So If I can add anything useful, pay attention to the noise level and recovery rates. If you hear a hiss, or a change in noise level and the recovery rates slowing, Pay fucking attention.

Pressure test the pump every 10 runs or so. I do this by closing the outlet valve and pressurizing the inlet with 30-40 psi. This is done from a separate valve on the inlet line so the pump inlet valve can remain open.
If your pressure drops quickly you have a seal problem.

I run two Appion pumps and like them a lot but they are a bit light duty for this application.

But until I can afford a bad ass puppy like this: http://www.bauer-kompressoren.de/en.../mitteldruck/oellos_baureihe_15/d51/index.php

I'll have to rebuild the little farkers once in a while.

Peace RB

Thanks for your sage input, as always bro!

Several good points, which leads me to believe that we are talking about the wrong measurement.

What we should be talking about is pressure inside the collection pot that is being heated. It doesn't matter what temperature the hot water is, what matters is how much pressure is produced as a result of it.

The prime purpose of the heat in my system, is not to boil off the butane, but to keep the system from grinding to a halt, from the refrigeration produced by the high boiling rates produced under vacuum.

I try to keep the system under positive pressure (<30 psi) as much as practical, instead of vacuum, because it not only pumps faster, but the seals on the pump last much longer than if they are run essentially dry under vacuum.

I went through the first set of seals relatively fast developing a process, and rebuilt when the rate dropped off, but after the first rebuild and adding more heat, the pump already has 10X more hours on it and is still holding pressure.

Thanks by the by for the information about the catastrophic seal failures on the Appion and to put it into perspective, I believe it was you that turned me onto the Appion in the first place!

Now that you've rebuilt a few, do you know where to find the seal components for less than the ghastly $250 Appion charges for a kit? Everything but the metal plates would be just ducky, as I now have two good sets.

I really saw the effects of the heat when I placed a 2 liter glass beaker inside the pressure vessel to catch the butane, and because of the poor heat transfer from the tank bottom and none from the walls, recovery dragged into over an hour, when I finally opened the vessel and poured the butane out of the beaker into the tank, closed it up, pumped it off, and burped my collection tank of non condensable gases.

The Terpenator runs under 30 psi unless you dump a double column load into a hot dry pot, and then it hits about 75 psi. A double load is when you run a column load of butane through, so it is in the lower chamber processing, and then open the dump valve so that the column drains.

Another way to do that is to forget close the lower dump valve and open the column flood valve.

After playing with the Mk I test sled and noting those two things, I picked an ASTME rated vessel for the Mk II, and the Mk II has the pressure relief valve replaced with a rupture disc, so as to also be suitable for vacuum.

Any system should be rated at least three times its greatest operating pressure, and my pressure vessel is only certified for 120 psi, but I picked it knowing that to be certified at 120 psi, it had to be designed for over 360 psi.

Most paint pots are not ASTME rated and are usually rated closer to 60 psi, so selection is key here.

The Mk II system is also automated, because both I and every skunk pharmer who has operated the Mk I manual system, has forgotten to close the lower dump valve more than once.

The Mk II system also goes into an exhaust enclosure, so that if something does go wrong, venting butane won't build to explosive proportions, and has air operated explosion proof automatic valves. The butane valve has a spring return, so that if power and air are both lost, it closes.

The Mk II uses a stainless collection tank because the customer demanded it, but a ASTME carbon steel lower end would work as well, with a suitable bag liner, that was large enough to have good contact with the bottom and walls of the vessel.

Because of the high price of stainless ASTME paint pots, I actually designed my own and put them out for bid at local CNC water jet cutting and machine shops, only to get bids at about what I was able to buy a certified vessel for.

Of course, the moment I removed the safety valve and started re-plumbing the vessel to suit myself, the certification was lost, but at least I am assured it started out that way and I can concentrate on the plumbing, which is all rated at far higher pressures.


Good advice on the noise, and also pay attention to the likely leak spots. Any small leaks in most of the system will turn amber and sticky as the exiting butane deposits the oil.

I also recommend periodically pulling a hard -29.9 hg vacuum on the system, and do a leak up rate over 4 hours, then repeating it with air pressure for leak down rates. If you wish to really check it out, use helium for the pressure and a helium sniffer to detects the leaks.

Big leaks do change the sound and that is how I learned to retighten my lid bolts by hand, after the pot was under vacuum, because the first two times I double dumped and the pressure went to 75 psi, I discovered that the lid seal leaked.

Hopefully the automated Mk II won't be double dumping, but that does highlight that in its enclosed ventilation cabinet, the sound feedback is lost, so I will review that issue.

Hee, hee, hee, that is a nice pump and reminds me of the one that Joe found for unloading LPG tank cars. I'll see if he still has the link.

 

[banana buds]

The Terpenator runs under 30 psi unless you dump a double column load into a hot dry pot, and then it hits about 75 psi. A double load is when you run a column load of butane through, so it is in the lower chamber processing, and then open the dump valve so that the column drains.

Another way to do that is to forget close the lower dump valve and open the column flood valve.



The Mk II system is also automated, because both I and every skunk pharmer who has operated the Mk I manual system, has forgotten to close the lower dump valve more than once.

The Mk II system also goes into an exhaust enclosure, so that if something does go wrong, venting butane won't build to explosive proportions, and has air operated explosion proof automatic valves. The butane valve has a spring return, so that if power and air are both lost, it closes.



Hopefully the automated Mk II won't be double dumping, but that does highlight that in its enclosed ventilation cabinet, the sound feedback is lost, so I will review that issue.

did this ONE time and spent hours recovering 10lbs that had gotten out the dump before i realized my error. never again! and i won't let anyone else operate the machine

could you possibly put in a check to control for dump valve being in the wrong position? i.e. if you had a pressure sensor on the column and the pot each, you could see if there was not a pressure differential during fill - which would indicate an open valve. i think we would all do well to have plenty of safety built into our machines when we hand them off to a microcontroller.

 

[Gray Wolf]

did this ONE time and spent hours recovering 10lbs that had gotten out the dump before i realized my error. never again! and i won't let anyone else operate the machine

could you possibly put in a check to control for dump valve being in the wrong position? i.e. if you had a pressure sensor on the column and the pot each, you could see if there was not a pressure differential during fill - which would indicate an open valve. i think we would all do well to have plenty of safety built into our machines when we hand them off to a microcontroller.

Not sure how to do it with a check, but a simple magnetic reed switch can be used to indicate valve position and a solenoid could lock out the butane valve unless the dump valve was in the proper position.

As a cheap simple minded approach, I suppose you could also take the handles off both valves and use just one to operate one or the other. You might be more inclined to notice the position, if you had to take the handle off of it.............

 

[banana buds]

just realized i don't know how i'm going to run that 3/8" line to the appion's inlet. the inlet fitting screws onto threads that are 1/4" but smaller threads than NPT....help!

 

[Gray Wolf]

just realized i don't know how i'm going to run that 3/8" line to the appion's inlet. the inlet fitting screws onto threads that are 1/4" but smaller threads than NPT....help!

I picked up a 1/4" to 3/8" flare adapter at RDS refrigeration supply. I first screwed on my inlet filter and then the adapter.

 

[knowhere]

what 3/8" reclaim hose are you all using, the one I got is black and smells horrible it also has EPDM seals in it, goodyear printed on the side of the tubing, I will only use this on the high vacuum pump for finishing oils, dont want to contaminate my butane with this hose. Might just build my own out of PFA 1/2" tubing and available hose bard to flare fittings.

 

[banana buds]

I picked up a 1/4" to 3/8" flare adapter at RDS refrigeration supply. I first screwed on my inlet filter and then the adapter.

good call, picked up an adapter at the refrig supply house i got my 3/8 line from.





in other news, it's occurred to me that you could potentially build a hybrid recovery machine using appion parts. i'm envisioning something with more effective condensers (maybe water cool the appion ones?) and more cylinders. APPION G5 V-8

putting the new configuration together, will be pressure testing and then test running it later this evening!

 

[Gray Wolf]

what 3/8" reclaim hose are you all using, the one I got is black and smells horrible it also has EPDM seals in it, goodyear printed on the side of the tubing, I will only use this on the high vacuum pump for finishing oils, dont want to contaminate my butane with this hose. Might just build my own out of PFA 1/2" tubing and available hose bard to flare fittings.

EPDM is unsuitable for butane! Check this site for compatability.
http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance


I use neoprene hoses, and viton, buna n, PTFE, seals in my system.

 

[Gray Wolf]

in other news, it's occurred to me that you could potentially build a hybrid recovery machine using appion parts. i'm envisioning something with more effective condensers (maybe water cool the appion ones?) and more cylinders. APPION G5 V-8

putting the new configuration together, will be pressure testing and then test running it later this evening!

Maybe a V-8 with a Rootes blower?

Good idea on more condensing! It would be easy to add a water cooled condenser in the return line from the pump to the storage tank. It would hopefully be oriented so that the condensate self drained and didn't add back pressure.

 

[banana buds]

well today has been a bummer. appion suddenly started making horrible screeching noises during recovery. had to go into oh-shit-jesus-fuck mode - chem suit + mask + gloves - and vent the system to atmosphere while partner stayed in another room with several fire extinguishers.

after disassembling the appion it turns out the gearbox on the fan assembly ate itself. the gear that is attached to the fan's shaft somehow got ground down until it had few enough teeth to disengage from the gear driven by the appion's motor shaft.

hopefully the refrig supply house has a fan assembly on hand. i would repair it myself but the gears aren't sold by themselves. i suppose the good news is the rest of the unit appears to be fine. lesson learned: keep spare parts for these units if you don't want downtime.

besides that, after disassembling the unit and seeing its inner workings and parts, i really think that i could build a unit more suited to our purposes using a combination of appion g5 parts and some custom machined bits.

any theories as to where larger condensers could be sourced that would be up to the task? the appion's are only hooked up via simple copper lines and nuts. looks like it'd be trivially easy to rig it up with alternate condensers.


EDIT: got crafty and mated a starting collar up to the rear grate panel of the appion so now i can hook it up to a blower fan and run the unit as usual.

 

[Rickys bong]

bb, I found the best place for parts was online. Century tool has given me really good service in the past but there are others.

I called Century at like 3 minutes before the UPS guy showed up and they had him wait around so my order could be processed and go out that day...

http://www.centurytool.net/Appion_G5_Twin_s/16907.htm

On the condensers, get hold of some catalogs from refrigeration supply houses.
The condensers on the Appion (and other) pumps are rather minimal so make sure you feed as much air as possible. That's why they gear up the fan speed.

However, I made a water cooled condenser which works great. I have some pictures but I think they are on a dead computer so I'll have to transfer them to another machine.

Nothing complex, but being an engineer with my own machine shop helps...

Basically a 4" aluminum tube 20" long with some 1/4" copper tube in a spiral coil inside.
Welded one end up and made a o-ring sealed flange at the other. Swagelok fittings for feed-thru.

The water being fed through the cooler is fairly cold (45-50deg. F) but the pumping time was cut in half, although I'm recovering a lot of butane...

Peace RB

 

[banana buds]

so now it could just be me, but it seems that my macguyvered fix for the fan has actually sped up recovery. i have a couple ideas why:

1) the appion's motor is no longer having to power the blower fan, so it is able to devote its full attention to pushing the cylinders

2) the blower i'm using is able to push air through the machine better, cooling the condensers more effectively


at any rate, the new smaller column is definitely a lot better as far as per-batch times. once everything is shaken down again i'll time some runs to see if i'm matching gray's times. i have a feeling it will still be a good amount behind as i'm still using my single port tank and the colder bath, as well as the fact that i've got a teflon bag insulating my stuff.

 

[banana buds]

bb, I found the best place for parts was online. Century tool has given me really good service in the past but there are others.

I called Century at like 3 minutes before the UPS guy showed up and they had him wait around so my order could be processed and go out that day...

http://www.centurytool.net/Appion_G5_Twin_s/16907.htm

On the condensers, get hold of some catalogs from refrigeration supply houses.
The condensers on the Appion (and other) pumps are rather minimal so make sure you feed as much air as possible. That's why they gear up the fan speed.

However, I made a water cooled condenser which works great. I have some pictures but I think they are on a dead computer so I'll have to transfer them to another machine.

Nothing complex, but being an engineer with my own machine shop helps...

Basically a 4" aluminum tube 20" long with some 1/4" copper tube in a spiral coil inside.
Welded one end up and made a o-ring sealed flange at the other. Swagelok fittings for feed-thru.

The water being fed through the cooler is fairly cold (45-50deg. F) but the pumping time was cut in half, although I'm recovering a lot of butane...

Peace RB

INTERESTING!

now what about using a colder bath in the condenser? seems like maybe if we could get a system that would be cold enough to condense the butane on its own, coupling that up with a recovery machine would be insanely fast.

how much butane are/were you dumping into the pot at one time with this one? and what are the dimensions of the pot you did this with?

with my 4x24 column i was running around 5lbs at a time, are we thinking that maybe despite the lack of surface area, it might be possible to actually get up to reasonable cycle times using a modified recovery system? i definitely don't regret moving to a small column for now, but i am sure as hell keeping my 4x24 in the event that there's a way to quickly suck up 5lbs of butane out of a 12" diameter pressure pot.

 

[Flying High]

bb, I found the best place for parts was online. Century tool has given me really good service in the past but there are others.

I called Century at like 3 minutes before the UPS guy showed up and they had him wait around so my order could be processed and go out that day...

http://www.centurytool.net/Appion_G5_Twin_s/16907.htm

On the condensers, get hold of some catalogs from refrigeration supply houses.
The condensers on the Appion (and other) pumps are rather minimal so make sure you feed as much air as possible. That's why they gear up the fan speed.

However, I made a water cooled condenser which works great. I have some pictures but I think they are on a dead computer so I'll have to transfer them to another machine.

Nothing complex, but being an engineer with my own machine shop helps...

Basically a 4" aluminum tube 20" long with some 1/4" copper tube in a spiral coil inside.
Welded one end up and made a o-ring sealed flange at the other. Swagelok fittings for feed-thru.

The water being fed through the cooler is fairly cold (45-50deg. F) but the pumping time was cut in half, although I'm recovering a lot of butane...

Peace RB

I don't want to hijack the thread, but since we seem to all be running Appion G5's, I am curious if the rebuild kit or parts for the G5 are on the Centurytool website or do I need to call to order these parts? I have been looking on the Century Website for days trying to find the rebuild parts; but I guess a call is in order...


On the subject of coolers, would one of these work? http://www.centurytool.net/MT69_CPS_Recovery_Submersible_Subcooler_p/cpsmt69.htm

I really don't like the copper coil, so that may be a deal breaker?

Awesome work BB, I have received my stainless parts from Glaciertank but I have yet to see my order from Century; so I just wait...

thanks for the help

 

[knowhere]

on my old promax the fan failed so i used a 6" vortex fan from an older setup I had that was laying around I noticed it really helped improve the recovery times as well, this was during winter time and the cold ambient temps I am sure helped with the larger volume of air passing through the condensers

typically when Appions fail is it these seals that need replacing ?

http://www.centurytool.net/KTG515_Appion_Piston_Seal_Kit_Both_Sides_p/ktg515.htm

or do we need the whole compressor rebuild kit?
http://www.centurytool.net/KTG520_Appion_Compressor_Rebuild_Kit_p/ktg520.htm

BB, I was thinking of picking up a 12"L x 4" sanitary fitting tube for doing longer steep baths for specific material, please let us know your recovery times on your 4 x 24" when you are done with your tweaks,

I will be posting a thread soon with the last 4 builds and 2 of my my most current ones in the next few weeks once I am done optimizing things. a pre appion condenser is in the works on my unit as well, although I think ill use PFA tubing and 316 ss hose barb to flare / npt fittings for that component.

 

[banana buds]

On the subject of coolers, would one of these work? http://www.centurytool.net/MT69_CPS_Recovery_Submersible_Subcooler_p/cpsmt69.htm

I really don't like the copper coil, so that may be a deal breaker?

Awesome work BB, I have received my stainless parts from Glaciertank but I have yet to see my order from Century; so I just wait...

thanks for the help

why do you not like copper coil? you know the appion uses copper too, right?

 

[Flying High]

I appreciate the links Knowhere; I feel kind of stupid now that I see all I needed to do was click on the G5 picture and not the G5 link down below. I must have been thru that page twenty times and not realized I needed to click on those funny little picture things they call icons. Gosh, I am feeling senile at a young age...

As for the copper, I was uncertain as to it's properties with regards to Butane, for some reason I thought it was not a suitable material for blow thru columns and just put it on the shit list. I'll check out it's properties on the link Grey provided above; I'm not sure how I got to thinking the coil on the Appion was something other than copper. I have looked at the internals on several other Recovery Machines now and they have all been plumbled with copper; now that I think about it, the picture on the Appion product page even shows or mentions the copper...

The more I think about it, that Sub-Cooler might be an inexpensive way to speed up the recovery a little bit? II may order one with some extra Appion parts to try out, I'll report back when I get my system all together and shaken out...

 

[Gray Wolf]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but since we seem to all be running Appion G5's, I am curious if the rebuild kit or parts for the G5 are on the Centurytool website or do I need to call to order these parts? I have been looking on the Century Website for days trying to find the rebuild parts; but I guess a call is in order...


On the subject of coolers, would one of these work? http://www.centurytool.net/MT69_CPS_Recovery_Submersible_Subcooler_p/cpsmt69.htm

I really don't like the copper coil, so that may be a deal breaker?

Awesome work BB, I have received my stainless parts from Glaciertank but I have yet to see my order from Century; so I just wait...

thanks for the help

Slick!