Ron Paul 2012!!! Your thoughts on who we should pick for our "Cause"?

[Avenger]

I'd like to recomend some reading to you that might help you understand the free market and how it would handle the things that you say are of "common concern".

THE MYTH OF NATIONAL DEFENSE:

FREE MARKET TRANSPORTATION:
DENATIONALIZING THE ROADS*

Education: Free and Compulsory

If You Love Nature, Desocialize It

All of that and more can be found at Mises.org, and another good daily reader is http://www.lewrockwell.com/

Sic semper tyrannis

Ok, what Disco is saying here helped me realize a nagging concern I have about Paul. For example, Paul's site says: "Cuts $1 trillion in spending during the first year of Ron Paul’s presidency, eliminating five cabinet departments (Energy, HUD, Commerce, Interior, and Education), abolishing the Transportation Security Administration and returning responsibility for security to private property owners..."

I find the idea that a private corporation or individual should handle tasks of great common concern illogical and undemocratic. A transfer of control of things like security, education, military, and energy use from government to private, along with a decrease in regulation of the private sector, could lead just as quickly to corporate tyranny in these aspects of our lives, as dangerous if not more than a government tyranny.



I don't see where Paul says that, but if its true, doesn't transferring control of some of these departments and projects to so many states sound like a logistical and bureaucratic nightmare?



But why should a private owner be given ownership of something of value to the whole community, sometimes the whole nation? How does any other individual (real person) participate in the caring for and protection of a park or land that is controlled by a private entity with no democratic structures in place?




But what makes sense to one person (who happens to own a land) might not make sense to another. In the case of private ownership of a federal or communal land, the private owner has no obligation to consider the wishes of anyone other than themselves with respect to their property, right?



This seems like a contradiction to me. The federal government shouldn't own land. Why? The American people are the government, in a democratic society. Government ownership of the land then is a way of communal ownership where the property is of concern and value to a whole community of people and not just one individual.

Transferring ownership of such things to the state pretends to solve this, and probably does in some cases. But rarely does private ownership make sense to me. I would like to see more details about what Paul proposes for certain federal departments, properties, etc. and whether he advocates state or private ownership. If you can point me to these details, I'd appreciate it.

In general my concern is what concerns me about American libertarians in general. The singular focus on individual freedom and private ownership can be a threat to democratic society where it is supposed that a balance between individual interest and communal interest must always be kept, and the structures for such a balance and for the participation of the individual in the interests of the communal is called democratic government. A government that doesn't govern with democratic structures is a tyranny. But the transfer of ownership of communal interests to private entities easily becomes corporate tyranny, which sounds worse in my mind. A corporation doesn't even pretend to be structured democratically, neither inside within the ranks of employees and decision making, nor outside in its complete lack of transparency to the community. Is it that libertarians have completely lost hope in our ability to maintain democratic structures in government, so they just say, to hell with it, the democratic project failed, only the individual's freedom and self-interest remains?

 

[Cojito]

Are you here just to type a bunch of non sense?

i've written several things in this thread. be specific. if i've posted something in error - have at it.

I feel bad that your having a hard time interpreting reality. I'm not blaming you...because you aren't thinking for yourself, your perception of reality is based on what the sewer stream propaganda machine has told you. It's psychological warfare and your a victim. Unfortunately we all are. Until you admit that or even try to break your conditioning, your life was just a dream.

ok. i confess. i'm confused. hence the dialectic. that's how i learn. what about you? - how exactly did you break your conditioning? and why do you prefer insult to argument?

 

[Bluenote]

I agree with all this my question to you now is

You say Paul has been bought but until I see him put the groups who fund him above his core beliefs and voting record I don't buy it

Can you show any proof he has contradicted his beliefs to keep the support of any group

I already pointed out a couple of egregious examples , for clarity explore his connections with the John Birch Society and the Christian Reconstructionist Movement , you will note that the latter is *nothing* whatsoever but thinly disguised neo-Calvinism of the Dominionist school of thought.

And nobody seems to wish to discuss his stance on abortion , and in that particular case it rather seems that his concept of " Freedom" stops at a woman womb.

Pretty clear conflicts with Paul's alleged " Libertarian" stance.

And eliminate Social Security? And those folks who worked all their lves and whom are existing ( barely a great many of them)on S.S. are supposed to do what?

And then there is of course the question of those of us who have paid in for decades...............ya shut it down I want my damn money back.

And his foreign policy is a sieve that will bleed away money , along with what little industry we have left in this country.

Tell you what , I'd *like* to be wrong , I'd like to be back here in a few years saying " damn but you guys were right about Ron Paul and things really did work out for the best." and taking a good natured ribbing over it all.................but it won't happen.

We'll either get another four year of the product of the Chicago machine , and whom has for some of his closest confidante's folks who *hijacked* a lot of what might have been worth saving from the late '60s and perverted it , people who were sniveling about the establishment and then ultimately became the establishment.

Or we'll get a corporate raider who sent scad of American jobs offshore during his tenure with Bain Capital and become filthy rich doing it.

I doubt we'll get Gingrich , hopefully Calif and the rest of the primaries left will shoot that egotistical waste of protoplasm down.

 

[Bluenote]

Are you here just to type a bunch of non sense? I feel bad that your having a hard time interpreting reality. I'm not blaming you...because you aren't thinking for yourself, your perception of reality is based on what the sewer stream propaganda machine has told you. It's psychological warfare and your a victim. Unfortunately we all are. Until you admit that or even try to break your conditioning, your life was just a dream.

ROTFLMAO............you mean like being conditioned to the same degree as Pavlov's dogs as goes reaction to anyone stating the truth as regards Ron Paul.

See what Cojito stated was the exact *truth*. You can deny those connections all you care to , they already *happened*.

And frankly if your beef is about Christian Reconstructionist theology and it's inherent doctrines and how they are seeking political power.............if you're looking for some sort of confrontation on that issue , well then.


I'm your huckleberry.

 

[Bluenote]

then He wasn't bought off. He is being supported by people who share his views

Uhhhh , you might want to explore the subject of Christian Reconstructionism prior to making that statement above , lets just say that it doesn't put Paul in real good company.

 

[Bluenote]

For y'all's amusement , and sums up my feelings about it all after decades of watching this crap........



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiTikduJ15Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zC1ML5D3-A&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FBKGSuIxuE&feature=related

 

[dagnabit]

I already pointed out a couple of egregious examples , for clarity explore his connections with the John Birch Society and the Christian Reconstructionist Movement , you will note that the latter is *nothing* whatsoever but thinly disguised neo-Calvinism of the Dominionist school of thought.

you may want to review the doc's voting record to see in many instances he keeps his religion separate from his politics unlike the group that has no ties to him you keep on touting.

And nobody seems to wish to discuss his stance on abortion , and in that particular case it rather seems that his concept of " Freedom" stops at a woman womb.

weird:
Voted NO on barring transporting minors to get an abortion.
Voted NO on federal crime to harm fetus while committing other crimes.
Voted NO on forbidding human cloning for reproduction & medical research.

Q: [to Paul] Sen. Santorum believes that the Supreme Court was wrong when it decided that a right to privacy was embedded in the Constitution. And following from that, he believes that states have the right to ban contraception, although he's not recommending that states do that.

SANTORUM: The Supreme Court created through a penumbra of rights a new right to privacy that was not in the Constitution.

PAUL: No, I think the 4th Amendment is very clear. It is explicit in our privacy. You can't go into anybody's house without a search warrant. This is why the Patriot Act is wrong, because you have a right of privacy by the 4th Amendment. As far as selling contraceptives, the Interstate Commerce Clause protects this; it was originally written not to impede trade between the states, but it was written to facilitate trade between the states. So if it's not illegal to import birth control pills from one state to the next, it would be legal to sell birth control pills in that state.

Q: You have said that you believe that life begins at conception and that abortion ends an innocent life. If you believe that, how can you support a rape exception to abortion bans, and how can you support the morning-after pill? Aren't those lives just as innocent?

PAUL: They may be, but the way this is taken care of in our country, it is not a national issue. This is a state issue. And there are circumstances where doctors in the past have used certain day-after pills for somebody with rape. And, quite frankly, if somebody is treated, you don't even know if a person is pregnant; if it's 24 hours after rape, I don't know how you're going to police it. We have too many laws already. Now, how are you going to police the day-after pill? Nobody can out-do me on respect for life. I've spent a lifetime dealing with life. But I still think there is a time where the law doesn't solve the problems. Only the moral character of the people will eventually solve this problem, not the law.

i could go on but on the good doc you seem to be willfully illinformed....

And eliminate Social Security? And those folks who worked all their lves and whom are existing ( barely a great many of them)on S.S. are supposed to do what?

And then there is of course the question of those of us who have paid in for decades...............ya shut it down I want my damn money back.

you really should read the doc's plan.
it has nothing whatsoever to do with what you posted here

And his foreign policy is a sieve that will bleed away money , along with what little industry we have left in this country.

how?

 

[SpasticGramps]

And his foreign policy is a sieve that will bleed away money

I must not understand what you are saying. That strikes me as a nonsensical statement.

 

[SELFHEMPLOYED]

Dr. Paul is speaking in my home town tomorrow morning, really pumped to see him.

 

[Bluenote]

I must not understand what you are saying. That strikes me as a nonsensical statement.

Really? Care to tell me what Paul is going to do to foster the regrowth of industry in this country? To bring BACK some of what's gone offshore?

Do you deny the fact that a good portion of American industry has departed.......

 

[Bluenote]

you may want to review the doc's voting record to see in many instances he keeps his religion separate from his politics unlike the group that has no ties to him you keep on touting.


weird:
Voted NO on barring transporting minors to get an abortion.
Voted NO on federal crime to harm fetus while committing other crimes.
Voted NO on forbidding human cloning for reproduction & medical research.


i could go on but on the good doc you seem to be willfully illinformed....



you really should read the doc's plan.
it has nothing whatsoever to do with what you posted here


how?

Care to back off on that " touting" , you might need to look up the definition of the word , 'cause I sure as hell am not " touting" Christian Reconstructionist philosophy.


And I see it's back to the " you're stupid" line again , oh yeah you thinly disguised it as " you're willfully misinformed" , same old song and dance.

As goes abortion Paul has openly stated that he's against abortion. You can go roundy round all you want.

Nor can you escape the fact that he borrowed scads of stuff from Rockwell but failed to learn the lessons available. And bottom line is that no matter how many of his warts and foibles are pointed out , his racist stances in the past , the fact that his structure would inevitably end up even more top heavy than this one , that it would accentuate the already out of control " haves versus the have nots" syndrome........no matter what you've gotten on his bandwagon. That's your choice , it's not mine.

Here's an irony for you , some Ron Paul supporters closely resemble fundamentalist Christians in their fanaticism and willingness to take the low road should someone dare to state they don't much care for the man.

And this went 'bout as usual , I should have trotted my stupid , unAmerican , uneducated , shiftless , must be a demorepublileraconserval on along and left folks to their new version of .....

Hope and Change



Worked out right nicely the last time 'eh.......

 

[whodare]

Really? Care to tell me what Paul is going to do to foster the regrowth of industry in this country? To bring BACK some of what's gone offshore?

Do you deny the fact that a good portion of American industry has departed.......

The severe economic crisis America has experienced over the past several years, including growing inflation, rising gas prices, trillion-dollar budget deficits, immoral bailouts, and the ever-declining value of the dollar, is just the tip of the iceberg if our nation does not immediately change course.

UNHEEDED WARNINGS
As the crash approached, Ron Paul was heavily criticized by the establishment media and even many of his fellow Republicans because he would not back down from his warnings about where big government policies were leading America.

When those warnings came true, however, our President and leaders in Congress didn’t let the crisis “go to waste” and used it as an excuse to expand government intervention and power on an unprecedented level.

Excessive spending, artificial credit, and market manipulation crashed our economy, and no one should be surprised that these same policies continue to prolong the suffering for millions of Americans.

We need a President who is not afraid to make the tough decisions necessary to restore America’s economy and guarantee future prosperity.

REAL SOLUTIONS
As President, Ron Paul will lead the way out of this crisis by:

* Vetoing any unbalanced budget Congress sends to his desk.

* Refusing to further raise the debt ceiling so politicians can no longer spend recklessly.

* Fighting to fully audit (and then end) the Federal Reserve System, which has enabled the over 95% reduction of what our dollar can buy and continues to create money out of thin air to finance future debt.

* Legalizing sound money, so the government is forced to get serious about the dollar’s value.

* Ending the corporate stranglehold on the White House.

* Driving down gas prices by allowing offshore drilling, abolishing highway motor fuel taxes, increasing the mileage reimbursement rates, and offering tax credits to individuals and businesses for the use and production of natural gas vehicles.

* Eliminating the income, capital gains, and death taxes to ensure you keep more of your hard-earned money and are able to pass on your legacy to your family without government interference.

* Opposing all unfunded mandates and unnecessary regulations on small businesses and entrepreneurs.

These are just a few of the steps we can take to put America back in place as the world’s leading economy. Taking a stand for these principles has often been a lonely fight in Congress for Ron Paul, but, now more than ever, our nation needs a President who will champion sound money, responsible spending, lower taxes, and free market enterprise.

I posted on page 142 all the stances from his website this is just one of many

 

[SacredBreh]

Ok Cojito.... you convinced me!

Ok Cojito.... you convinced me!

Ron Paul wouldn't have to "contradict" his beliefs. the aforementioned christian re-constructionists, (the ones who want to bring back the stoning of sinners), love Paul because they both seek a decentralized society and weak federal government.

I guess I share some views of the "christian re-constructionists" too as well as Ron Paul on those paticular positions..... oh and am pretty sure as a Satanist... I would have to agree with those positions too.....

Peace

 

[draztik]

i've written several things in this thread. be specific. if i've posted something in error - have at it.



ok. i confess. i'm confused. hence the dialectic. that's how i learn. what about you? - how exactly did you break your conditioning? and why do you prefer insult to argument?

I don't want to insult you I would rather help you open your eyes and expand your knowledge of reality and be one step closer to enlightenment. In order for your to break your conditioning you must keep and open mind,. We are all conditioned, it's a sad and horrible truth that most folk's never acknowledge. I naturally rejected the system as teenager. A few things I experienced in my life also helped opened my eyes to the corrupt system. One was reading and understanding what the federal reserve is. The other was 9/11. I'm sure the majority of folks don't even want to touch on the subject of 9/11 but as a logical thinking sentient being that is a force of the universe I cannot ignore the blatant lies and fairy tales the system has force fed down our throats. This is a very emotional subject for a lot of people but this single event has change everyone's life. The smoking gun is WTC 7. Buildings don't collapse at near free fall speed from fire. That building is collapsing into it's own footprint with zero resistance, that doesn't make alot of sense. I sat home glued to the TV that day waiting for them to report on the possible type of explosives used to bring the buildings down. That day turned into weeks then months then years waiting for the explanation. If everyone can remember they had to be forced to investigate 9/11 and the outcome of that investigation was both laughable and extremely frightening. Keep an open mind because the rabbit hole goes deep my friend.

 

[whodare]

America is the greatest nation in human history. Our respect for individual liberty, free markets, and limited constitutional government produced the strongest, most prosperous country in the world. But, we have drifted far from our founding principles, and America is in crisis. Ron Paul’s “Restore America” plan slams on the brakes and puts America on a return to constitutional government. It is bold but achievable. Through the bully pulpit of the presidency, the power of the Veto, and, most importantly, the united voice of freedom-loving Americans, we can implement fundamental reforms.

DELIVERS A TRUE BALANCED BUDGET IN YEAR THREE OF DR. PAUL’S PRESIDENCY:

Ron Paul is the ONLY candidate who doesn’t just talk about balancing the budget, but who has a full plan to get it done.

SPENDING:

Cuts $1 trillion in spending during the first year of Ron Paul’s presidency, eliminating five cabinet departments (Energy, HUD, Commerce, Interior, and Education), abolishing the Transportation Security Administration and returning responsibility for security to private property owners, abolishing corporate subsidies, stopping foreign aid, ending foreign wars, and returning most other spending to 2006 levels.

ENTITLEMENTS:

Honors our promise to our seniors and veterans, while allowing young workers to opt out. Block grants Medicaid and other welfare programs to allow States the flexibility and ingenuity they need to solve their own unique problems without harming those currently relying on the programs.

CUTTING GOVERNMENT WASTE:
Makes a 10% reduction in the federal workforce, slashes Congressional pay and perks, and curbs excessive federal travel. To stand with the American People, President Paul will take a salary of $39,336, approximately equal to the median personal income of the American worker.

TAXES:

Lowers the corporate tax rate to 15%, making America competitive in the global market. Allows American companies to repatriate capital without additional taxation, spurring trillions in new investment. Extends all Bush tax cuts. Abolishes the Death Tax. Ends taxes on personal savings, allowing families to build a nest egg.

REGULATION:

Repeals ObamaCare, Dodd-Frank, and Sarbanes-Oxley. Mandates REINS-style requirements for thorough congressional review and authorization before implementing any new regulations issued by bureaucrats. President Paul will also cancel all onerous regulations previously issued by Executive Order.

MONETARY POLICY:

Conducts a full audit of the Federal Reserve and implements competing currency legislation to
strengthen the dollar and stabilize inflation.

CONCLUSION:

Dr. Paul is the only candidate with a plan to cut spending and truly balance the budget. This is the only plan that will deliver what America needs in these difficult times: Major regulatory relief, large spending cuts, sound monetary policy, and a balanced budget.

And one more since you can't go look for yourself

 

[SpasticGramps]

Do you deny the fact that a good portion of American industry has departed.......

No, it's all been outsourced. Why you ask? We are uncompetitive wage wise. We've gone from a productive command economy to a consumerist/fianacialized command economy. Yeah, that's sustainable lol. And we've overdosed on debt turning China into the productive state to feed our consumerism overdose.

IMHO, we've crossed the Rubicon...globally.

Mi-sallocation of capital is so absurd and distorted Jesus, nor Buddha, nor Horus, nor Zeus, nor the Easter Bunny will save us from the reversion to the mean right now.

Yeah, we've de-industrailzed our base, produce nothing, save nothing and expect to survive as a society.

Not a chance.

IMVHO.......the globe is bankrupt and this whole election is bread and circuses. It's time to pay the piper for our stateist dreams. It matters not which one man lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

We've reached the end of the debt super-cycle. That's the most salient point RP is making.

 

[SacredBreh]

I am in doubt enough change can be made to avert hitting bottom!

I am in doubt enough change can be made to avert hitting bottom!

Bluenote-- since you backed off the rant a little, you have produced some substance.... although misinformed.

I am against abortion for myself or the female in my life... in usual cases, but am pro-choice. I would not assert my will on the rights of others. That is the biggest point Ron Paul makes.... he doesn't do heroin or Cannabis but he will protect your Constitutional right to do so.

I agree it may be too late to prevent what is coming, voting for Paul will not hasten the end but just may help avert it or at least delay it. I for one am doing many more things to prepare than posting on threads and voting for Paul. It may very well come down to a violet end, but if that can be avoided by anything peaceful then I am willing to do it.

Know it is a long thread but most of all this has been discussed before.... most several times.

Think many people would have a change of heart about Ron Paul if they were doing a 5-10 years sentence for growing and assisting others with Cannabis... bet it would change damn quick! Lots of us are about 1 mistake away from that!

Peace

 

[SpasticGramps]

Really? Care to tell me what Paul is going to do to foster the regrowth of industry in this country? To bring BACK some of what's gone offshore?

Do you deny the fact that a good portion of American industry has departed.......

Looks like the jobs didn't go over to the other developed world either?

Oh, but these are structural problems that a little ink and paper can take care of.

 

[SacredBreh]

Facts don't seem to be enough??????

Facts don't seem to be enough??????

-Millions of people's lives ruined and caged for non-violent crime... Freedom with-- Presidential pardon.

-DEA and ATF redirection to deal with real crime --Presidential executive order and directed Attorney General Order and back up with fail to prosecute...

-No more pre-emptive UNCONSTITUTIONAL wars and end to present war--Order of Commander in Chief.

-Audit of Fed and immediate decreasing of power leading to eradication--Order of Executive Branch to Attorney General then disclose found secrets to public--Legislation enacted as result of outrage.

-Repeal of Unconstitution and assaultive on the Bill of Rights executive orders--sign on the line.

-NSA to focus on Terrorist and foreign threats not warrentless invasion of citezens 4th Amendment rights--Presidential Order they serve under the President.

More could be done in a relatively short time.... Lead an effort to repeal The Against Patriots Act. All by the next President of the United States.

Peace

 

[monkey5]

agreed

agreed

Agreed! SacredBreh, You bring up great points! Thank you! Vote Ron Paul! 2012~monkey5