passive plant killer

[delta9nxs]

thank you, i knew i had seen one somewhere. good ole heathie! clear and to the point.

i want to announce my first non-sweet tooth to top a lb. it is an og nukush from cck. the first one was a seedling and yielded 8.7 something i think. the second, which was the first cutting, was 10.9 approx. and this plant, the second cutting, just dried to 16.4 oz.

we should compile a list of plants that get big in this thing.

you all may remember the rene x nuken. i have dropped it and destroyed them all. four plants, non over 10 oz's and the worst was 6.7 oz's.

if the high had been outstanding i would have at least kept a mother for a while but it was mediocre at best. bland, medium potency, not much flavor.

 

[gregor_mendel]

Let me apologize in advance for the off topic question, but since I plan to use ppks:

The room I have available is 8.7 feet by 6.8 feet. I am allowed 6 plants. (3/3)

Option 1:

I had been planning to have 2 independent rooms with 3 plants in each and a small hallway in the middle. Rooms to be staggered, scrogging with horizontal lighting.

This would give me a harvest every 4 or 5 weeks.

I really prefer vertical growing when using low plant numbers. Which leads to

Option 2:

Run 4 plants in the given space, each two weeks apart.
This allows for two plants to veg the 4'x4' tent I hadn't told you about, and that my wife would rather I not use. But go with it...

These two plants are also staggered two weeks, allowing one 4 week vegged plant to go into flower every two weeks.

For the problem: How do I light my 4 plants?

The traditional five light / 4 plant setup (I think) is unworkable.

I have run those in spaces from 8'x8' to 12'x12'.
The 8'x8' is really tight, and I think my almost 7' by almost 9' would be just as bad.

So my ideas are

Option 2a:

2-4 lights in a column in the middle of the room, surrounded by 4 plants trained to individual 1/4 circle screens

Option 2b:

Take the traditional 4 plant / 5 light setup (lights in 'corners' and center) and rotate 45 degrees. Because of the shorter dimension of the room, 2 lights disappear.

Now we have a horizontal line of 3 lights.
One plant in each 'corner', one light in the middle, and one each up against two walls (in cooltubes)

D9, ImaginaryFriend, Disciple, any others with vert experience with ppks, please chime in.

If my explanations are bad, let me know, and I will draw some pictures.

I am about to flower my last non ppk plants. It is the beginneng of the end, and new beginning...

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

GM,

I ran a six plant perpetual as you describe it, on a seventeen day rotation (i.e. 34 days of veg, 68 days of flower). Although it was of no great concern to me, it would be very hard to argue that the fourth plant in flower is in fact in flower... that is, it is pretty easy to say that it's still 3/3.

I had specific reasons for doing what I did, and in retrospect, they were not good... so I'll skip the details. If I wanted to run six plants in tight quarters, I would definitely use screens and train the material away from the light, setting it up 24-30" away from a 1k and such that they can reach flower material in about a foot off the screen and still be outside of the photo toxicity range. That demands about at least a five by five space, maybe six by six, not considering how you are going to tend to them. So the four pretty much take up your dedicated space, and you need to buy your wife some flowers and set up the 4x4 for veg...

I would take the time to build some custom screens that are semicircle... (Just because it seems fun, and lends an element of absurdity to the grow.)

I would also consider trying to crowd your vegging plants under a horizontal... say something silly like a 1.5x3' veg space footprint, lined with something nicely reflective, with the light far far away. If you're going to screen, you don't need great stem development, and you really need them to be much taller than they are wide. (Five feet tall, three feet wide (in the screen).) It has been the observation of many growers that many phenos will grow wide rather than tall during stretch if they are exposed to vertical light.

Maybe build your base buckets in a fixed postion, and rotate the plants through it, such that the newest ones are closest to the entrance. I suspect most of your stretch will be done four weeks into it (or whatever your rotation works out with your strain), so you have easier access to them when you need to train them.

I think I did something like that... or I had to remove the front plant to harvest the back one, then moved the front to the back and replaced the front. That may not make too much sense the way it is written, but I'm not remembering very clearly right now.

Screens might make it more challenging to move (make 'em modular like Verdant Green), but I kept overgrowing the shit out of a 5x5 space and suffered for lack of light penetration. I attribute to a lack of organization in my canopy, and the fact that there was way more material there then space would support; I should've thinned more, and the screen would have told me where.

I think PPKs do well with perpetual.

I really prefer the broken up workload that the perpetual provides--take your time processing and curing a single plant before the next one has to be addressed...

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Hey... There's a wierd point of diminishing returns with regard to flat vs. vertical garden with regard to exploting the maximum potential of the bulbs... You need to have a minimum foot print for vert to work. I think 5x5 might be it, with through training...

 

[delta9nxs]

hi, gregor mendel!

8.7 x 6.8 = 59.16 sq ft. with 6 plants is less than 10 sq ft each. that is not enough space for most plants unless they are extremely columnar in form. with four plants that's 14.79 sq ft each.

my flower room is 6.5 wide x 18.5 long. 120 sq ft with 9 plants at 13.33 each and that is not enough.

i like the scenario you described with 4 plants and lights in 3 positions. 1 dead center in the middle of the room and 2 more at the ends.

since i'm out of floor space i'm going to grow taller.

we need vines. auto flowering, evergreen vines. that grow in the dark. with no ferts or water.

does the ppk make you lazy?

 

[gregor_mendel]

Thanks IF.

So you support the vertical column. I was leaning that way.

Considering my space and your response, using 6'x6' of my space would put the buckets on 5' centers, and leave me some room for a volume tank and getting behind each plant.

I would still veg in the tent with horizontal light.

The biggest challenge will be the semicircular screens.

 

[gregor_mendel]

Thanks D9.

So one vote for each type.

The pros/cons as I see them:

Column:

Pro - easily fit volume tank in room, simpler venting of lights
Con - complicated screens with lots of training

Three position:

Pro - less training, possibly easier to move around, fit larger plants
Con - volume tank doesnt fit, could be the dealbreaker

does the ppk make you lazy?

Just reading about them does. I have had six black buckets and tire valves for over a month now. All I have done is drill out tire valves, destroying one in the process.

 

[jump /injack]

Could this be 3/8 ID??

Could this be 3/8 ID??

3/8" OD 5/16 ID, black tubeing. It took me a while to find it. dripper?

http://www.thepondoutlet.com/home/tpo/page_4766_117/black_vinyl_tubing.html

No muss no fuyss, fits the valve stem like a golve. Maybe som goop for safety

I've went to the site noted [thepondoutlet] but can find nothing there with a 3/8 OD designation, could this be a slip of the typing fingers and be 3/8 inside diameter instead? Trying to make these exactly because they work. Been following this now for a year and am putting my material list together and buying things. A very good read!

 

[gregor_mendel]

we need vines. auto flowering, evergreen vines. that grow in the dark. with no ferts or water.

Add no odor until it is dried, after the leaves naturally fall off (self trimming)

Any house with a crawl space, an attic, basement, extra room, closet, under the bed, space for a tent, unused pantry space...

 

[gregor_mendel]

I have mentioned here that the 3 positon scenario moves my bulk reservoir out of the room.

But the room is in a basement with a window.
Maybe I could put it outside at ground level.
Now I have to go outside to mix nutes in the winter with a frozen water hose.
Probably a bad idea.

Elevate the bulk rez in the garage (also subgrade) and run a hidden water line through two rooms somehow?

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Con - complicated screens with lots of training

Well, the screens don't have to be complicated. They should be attached to your buckets (in my opinion).

Regardless of the lighting arrangement, in such a compact space, you'll really have to control their growth and structure.

And that's going to require intensive training somehow.

 

[delta9nxs]

I've went to the site noted [thepondoutlet] but can find nothing there with a 3/8 OD designation, could this be a slip of the typing fingers and be 3/8 inside diameter instead? Trying to make these exactly because they work. Been following this now for a year and am putting my material list together and buying things. A very good read!

hi, jump /njack! i didn't get my stuff from thepondoutlet so i'm not familiar with their products but i'm using 1/4" id 3/8" od polyethylene tubing from us plastics. it works great with the tire valves and the 5/16" id latex tubing connectors.

 

[jump /injack]

US Plastics, so thats the place.

US Plastics, so thats the place.

hi, jump /njack! i didn't get my stuff from thepondoutlet so i'm not familiar with their products but i'm using 1/4" id 3/8" od polyethylene tubing from us plastics. it works great with the tire valves and the 5/16" id latex tubing connectors.

Thank you very much D9, that stuff is hard to find, no one seemed to have it. Trying very hard not to reinvent the wheel. A great read and I have enjoyed it, now its time to make one. Wonder if a 3 gallon air pot inside the upper 3.5 would work, just don't put the bottom into it, not going to do it but just throwing it out for consideration. The dry weights you're getting is mind boggling, a list of strains that give this type of production would be a real help, what you get off one plant is equal to 8 of mine.

Just ordered: 100', $17.46 including shipping. Thanks again.

 

[delta9nxs]

specifically, #58035 3/8" OD x .062 Wall Black LLDPE Tubing 100' $12.66

they also sell 500' rolls. not as flexible as vinyl but very tough shit. you can put a bucket of water on it and it won't compress and shut.

 

[jump /injack]

US Plastics, so thats the place.

US Plastics, so thats the place.

specifically, #58035 3/8" OD x .062 Wall Black LLDPE Tubing 100' $12.66

they also sell 500' rolls. not as flexible as vinyl but very tough shit. you can put a bucket of water on it and it won't compress and shut.

I had been to this site before but thought you had to buy in very large amounts but that is not the case. They seem to have every type of connector that you might ever need and you can buy single items, good place to peruse. Thanks again for the info D9.

 

[mrcreosote]

Hey D9, Howdy

Hehe,
US Plastics is right behind Home Depot as your one stop grow room shopping spot. That place is the shit.

Check this out for relays:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Relays_-z-_Timers/Electro-Mechanical_Relays/Power_Relays,_Open-Style,_40A_%28AD-PR40_Series%29/AD-PR40-2C-120A

Made in China but pretty damn cheap compared to Magnacraft/Schnider hecho in Mexico at $33. Can they be that much worse?
It would be nice if someone knew a way to run 5 relays off one timer since they are all going to switch at the same time but it will take a bigger brain than mine to suss out.
Might be worth looking into building a contactor relay board for your power to the ballasts if you don't already have one.
Ballast timer turns off ballasts at 12:00, relay timer flips lights @12:01, ballast timer turns ballasts back on 12:02.
Supposed to save arcing on the relays and burning them up sooner because they're never live when they flip and doesn't hurt the ballast at all.
This is what I gathered from the flip threads and this is how the guys who design these things do it.

Not that I know, of course, as I'm learning about this stuff myself but I already have a plan for a 2 ballast 4 light air cooled flip all stuck in one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000I0WL6I/ref=ox_sc_act_title_10?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER

I just want to sex it up with a double throw switch to run single light ballasts, flip the switch and ...Voila...2 lights per ballast with a ballast timer as per above and a relay timer to switch from room 1 to 2.
When my second ballast kit gets here I'm going to have to put it all together anyway, so for about $75 (2 relays and a wall timer) I can set it up for bigger things down the road.
I just don't know where to loop the switch in or if I even need it if the flip timer is turned off, the the power stays at the non-coiled (or constant) poles and the ballast timer does the 12on/off work.

Hmmm. I think I just answered my own question...No switch needed.

Sorry for jacking your thread...i shouldn't post while er...medicating. i really can't tell if any of the above makes sense to anyone but me.
and i ain't too sure I get it either...

Anyway...If you stick them relays in a box you'll want to cool em cause those coils will get pretty warm while they're juiced.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001TJUX30/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5?ie=UTF8&m=A1IBW2HULNJLEY

Saves fartin' with a 12 volt wall wart.

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, mrcreosote! thank you! nice site and that relay will work fine. i'm not a relay expert either so i'm learning on the run.

i did attend the Blind Melon Chitlin' School of Electrical Engineering though. i must have learned something as i'm still alive and everything i built is still working. it looks like shit but it works.

i think i'm going to run a separate relay for each fixture so that if there is any kind of problem i can still run the unaffected lights.

so i need 5 of these relays but i'm not sure on the timers. the timers i like have dual outlets so it looks like i can run at least 2 relays from each.

i don't think it takes much amperage to throw the relay solenoid.

each ballast has a timer on it to control the 12/12 photo period. the timers could be set to give the short duration off while the relays switch. i think i would fire the relays for the second 6 hour period timed to go off just after the main ballast timers switch off.

i would prefer to leave the ballast on during this switching but you say the general consensus is that the arcing damages the contacts? do you know how fast this occurs or how damaging it is?

at 20 bucks each they could be replaced regularly if it's not too often.

 

[mrcreosote]

Blind Melon Chitlin' always say;
"You ain't burn down de house den you done good."

I really can't say about the arcing or how long it take to burn up the contact points on the relay. I just am going by what ? (relay Guru, have to look him up) said and he custom builds them for folks. Seems to make sense tho and I'm sure a guy who is adamant about using all NEMA rated 600v wiring, terminals, plugs and outlets is gonna be pretty certain about whether cycling the ballasts wont harm them to achieve a no power flip.
He was not happy that someone was showing a DYI how-to with sawed off Depot extension cords (big no-no).
I guess the point being is this guy is all about safety first and building to code.
He doesn't recommend using plug in wall timers on 600w or up ballasts either. Use a DPST relay with a wall timer to just power the wee coil and let the 40 amp relay contacts do the work. Plug in timers will fail eventually and if they fail in the closed position there will be smoke, melted plastic and general unhappiness.

You don't want to meet this guy

I'm only going to have 2 400w ballast kits and $20 is the cheapest insurance in the world.
Plus I'm too lazy to have to move if I burn my own house down.
I can hear Mr. Insurance Man laughing as I file a claim for 'grow closet failure' from jail.

Then again, at $20 a relay, you could just take the ballast timers out, plug straight in and run ballasts 24/7, use the timers for the coil switch and replace the relays as needed. Safe and simple. I imagine you could even use a points file (remember them? hehe) on em if they get sticky. Them suckers look pretty damn robust.
Best to post in the flip thread for particulars cause you'll want to talk to someone smarter on this stuff than me.

Hell, you probably have cats that know more about wiring than me.

BTW quick question. When you used the roughneck tubs early on, did you use the tire valves on the thinwall tubs? leaks? I'm going that route so I can make modular scrog screens for each tub and screw em to the lids. 2- 400w can make some nice buds above a screen better than mini-trees I'm thinking.
I got 1 light now and 3 girls in there and it's a mess. 2'x4' just ain't a bunch of real estate.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

You guys are planning on flipping lamps in the same room right? (stacked bulb styles...)

One of the reasons to be super scared of a failed relay (if using it to flip room to room) is interfering with your light cycles in flower...

 

[delta9nxs]

sorry it took so long to respond, mrcreosote, my computer has contracted a deadly virus and is at my brothers being scrubbed and reformatted with linux. when i get it back there will be no microshaft crap on it. the bad part is that i'm losing all bookmarks, documents, and downloads. thousands of them. beware the Blaster Worm!

mrcreosote, the tubs worked with the tire valves and a 7/16" hole. no leaks.

i've always assembled my own ballasts from those cheap kits and have never had one fail. they are all 1k and some are 10 or more years old now. i've heard about people replacing the capacitors periodically but since getting the quantum meter i've been measuring the light output and the older ones put out the same amount as the newer ones.

i wired all of them with 25' 12 ga extension cords from wally's.

and they are wired straight off intermatic digital outdoor timers,
# HB 88 RC. i've never had one of these fail running 1k's through them.

unlike every timer in the grow store that i burnt up before i found these.

so the proposed pathway in flower is 12/12 timer to ballast as per normal. then to relay and 2 lights running alternately. switching at the 6 hour point accomplished by another HB 88 RC that just fires the relay solenoid. i'm not sure yet but it looks like i can fire all 5 relays with one timer.

later when i move i plan to run the ballasts 24/7 flip flopping 2 rooms.

i will try switching the relays without switching the ballast timer off first just to inspect the contacts and see how bad the arcing is. if it leaves no visible damage it's probably ok. these old style magnetic ballasts are like big old trucks.

later on