Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[foomar]

This chem killed a bad infestation last year , active component is cypermethrin which is a synthetic pyrethrum , used as a soil drench with no harm to the plants , not approved for this use and unexpectedly effective.

The typical half-life of cypermethrin in the soil is 30days.
The average half-life of cypermethrin on foliage is 5
days , fast enougth to use till early flower.

As an analog of a natural compound generally recognised as safe , i dont see much risk in its use.

 

[ballplayer 2]

Hey guys awesome thread. I first thought I had a spider mite problem, however after reading this thread I think they may actually be root aphids. The fact that I found what I thought were a couple fungus gnats was basically the clincher. I had two plants that seemed to be heavily infested, I scrapped them.

I am going to go purchase the Bayer Tree/Shrub or the citrus,whatever I can find. I am 9 days into flower. Do you think I can get away with 1 or 2 doses this run? I figure the strain would be harvested around day 60-65. So about 50-55 days from now.

Was the basic effective dose determined to be 7.5 ml/G? If I absolutely have to I will scrap this run and start over, but I would at least like to try and salvage if possible. What do you guys do about the ones crawling up the side of the containers and hanging around the rim? Should I spray the outside of the pot as well? Or do we figure the ones crawling up the side of the pot will eventually try to feed on roots and perish?

Thank you for all your help and hard work put into this thread.

BP2

 

[F. Dupp]

O.K.
A couple of things:
Bayer Complete has two active ingredients: Imidacloprid (imid), and B-Cyfluthrin. Imid is systemic, B-Cyfluthrin is a contact killer, however, it does NOT kill RAs. It kills fungus gnats, springtails, etc. Any RA deaths had to be from imid, just as in all other imid products (Citrus, Tree & shrub, Merit, and many other manufacturer's versions, etc.). I never heard of "Tempo". Maybe you are in Canada where they might have a different formula or are just using a different name for B-Cyfluthrin?
Imid is systemic, but plant has to absorb enough for it to work.
I am thinking that in a recirculating system, it takes longer for it to be absorbed in sufficient amounts, and longer for RAs to be killed. Also, after thinking about this last night, i think I know why they are more difficult to get rid of in hydro. Bugs are constantly flowing through the system. Not all of them are lucky enough to latch on to a plant and feed enough to take in a lethal dose before they are washed away, but new ones are constantly being born, as these things are essentially born pregnant, so their numbers increase exponentially. How they survive under water is a mystery.
I see that Evergreen 60 also contains piperonyl butoxide.
This may very well make the difference from regular pyrethrins, which I tried and found not to work.
Now we need a guinea pig to try a run of that solo.
By the way, how much does it cost, and are your plants improving?

Tempo is an insecticide made from B-Cyfluthrin, I looked into getting some, hence the confusion. Sorry.
How do you know B-Cyfluthrin doesnt kill RA's? Where are you getting this information? Have you used it on RA's? If so, have you used it on the specific type of RA's that I have? Its pretty apparent by reading every thread I could find on the subject that it takes different things to kill different types of RA's.

Stifling the idea that anything other than Imid will kill these bugs is not helpful. Imid did not work for me. For whatever reason. I ran it through my system for a week at a time. My plants had no choice but to absorb it. I was also applying a foliar spray of it. Yet as soon as I removed it the bugs came back, which shows that the B-Cyfluthrin was killing the bugs, no? Or was Imid killing them on contact?

The fact is that when the Bayer Complete was in my rez the bugs were either dead or dying. The minute the Bayer was removed they began making a comeback. The crawlers numbers would immediately increase as would their rate of speed, and I would notice more fliers. I witnessed this on each round of plants that I was able to dose with the Imid. I have obsessed over this and watch my plants very closely. I am not mistaken.

I am currently running Evergreen solo. It kills RA's better than the other products I have used, and its the only one that hasnt fucked up my plants. Its also is far more compatible with my system than the others.

Evergreen is $115 a quart. It is run at 2ml/gal. There is another brand called ExciteR, which is essentially the same product. Its more readily available and can be bought by the pint.

I have noticed a slight improvement in my veg plants since using the Evergreen, but my flowering plants are past the point of fucked. My plants were actually healthier when I didnt know I had RA's. The Bayer, and especially the Botanigard, while both having killed some bugs, have also added to the plants deterioration.

 

[zor]

Its pretty apparent by reading every thread I could find on the subject that it takes different things to kill different types of RA's.

Great point. There are soo many reports around the web of good growers that know what they're doing, having imid, botaniguard fail. There is flat out, no proven one size fits all solution. If there was one, I'm sure alot of people would be thrilled to find it. But as it is now, these aphids are adapting themselves to indoor and outdoor grow environments like a plague.

 

[qupee]

Hey guys awesome thread. I first thought I had a spider mite problem, however after reading this thread I think they may actually be root aphids. The fact that I found what I thought were a couple fungus gnats was basically the clincher. I had two plants that seemed to be heavily infested, I scrapped them.

I am going to go purchase the Bayer Tree/Shrub or the citrus,whatever I can find. I am 9 days into flower. Do you think I can get away with 1 or 2 doses this run? I figure the strain would be harvested around day 60-65. So about 50-55 days from now.

Was the basic effective dose determined to be 7.5 ml/G? If I absolutely have to I will scrap this run and start over, but I would at least like to try and salvage if possible. What do you guys do about the ones crawling up the side of the containers and hanging around the rim? Should I spray the outside of the pot as well? Or do we figure the ones crawling up the side of the pot will eventually try to feed on roots and perish?

Thank you for all your help and hard work put into this thread.

BP2

Personally, id be a lil uncomfotable using imid that late. You'll certainly have more of it present at the end. Now, its not terible stuff, but half life is longer indoors iirc.

Id consider botaniguard as its safe. I think there are pyrethrum products that can be used this late, and spectracide can be used as a contact killer still.

 

[ballplayer 2]

I am going to pick up the spectracide and the Bayer. I also have a bottle of azamax for the "mite" problem I thought I had. Can I mix the Azamax with the spectracide to create a more potent soup? Would the Azamax be better applied as an alternate after initial application of spectracide? Is azamax effective at all?

So the Bayer is a no go even at 50 days out?

Are these things like mites that will hang around in the room until the next crop? Obviously I will clear the room and take a bleach solution to my pots, room, and equipment.

I am thinking of hitting with spectracide first. However, if they are determined to stick around I may just sacrifice these plants as bait to get them centralized and blast them to hell with Bayer. Hopefully that will devastate their population enough for me to finish off any stragglers with the bleach spray. Then, next round I will take precautions in veg to be sure these are killed if they are present in my soil.

Lastly, do I need to spray around the outside of my containers where they seem to hang out sometimes?

 

[qupee]

Azamax is ineffective. It may marginally help dissuade them from colonating .. marginally.

Bleach is also ineffective. Their eggs have been shown to survive 7 minutes of submersion in bleach.

They will hang around, which is why regular inoculation with a systemic may be quite effective. That's your Bayer. Also, I assume, that even tho they'll hang around outside a plant, a plant's rootzone is where they want to be. Most if not all of them will go there and feed there.

As to being a no go at 50 days ... sort of a judgement call. Personally, I'd rather not. But I wouldn't be afraid to smoke it either. Your call. Judge by who's going to get the end product and how safe you feel. There are several other usually effective products that can be used in flower so I would say why risk it with Bayer.

Spectracide should give you a quick knock down of 90+% of the population in most cases (unless your aphids laugh at it).

You shouldn't have to spray Bayer around the pots. It works by becoming systemic in the plant and killing the aphids when they eat the plant. It is not a contact killer (some formulations of Bayer include a contact killer, but from what I gather they are usually not very effective against aphids).

Spectracide you could spray around the room, as it is a contact killer.

 

[Critter]

I dosed my plants with a small amount of imid and i plan to harvest 17-20 days later. If its safe for fruit at these time est. Im good with that. I only smoke my product so i guess im only hurting myself but i put this crap ON my dog every month and she only has a few growths/lumps on her

 

[ballplayer 2]

I will likely scrap the current grow. However, if anyone has any tips of how to sterilize my room I would really, really apppreciate it. Such as: How to properly chop plants and dismantle root balls to avoid contamination into the room itself, what should I sterilize with on room floors, walls, ceilings, reflectors(?).

Will these things stick around in a room that is dormant for a few months? or perhaps move on to more fruitful areas. Either way the room will be getting sprayed down with whatever is necessary.

Thank you for the help and education guys.

BP2

 

[RetroGrow]

"How do you know B-Cyfluthrin doesnt kill RA's? Where are you getting this information? Have you used it on RA's? If so, have you used it on the specific type of RA's that I have?

Two reasons why I don't believe B-Cyfluthrin doesn't kill RAs:
1. I had these bastards for a year and a half, and they ruined several crops. I tried unsuccessfully to kill them with everything I could get my hands on.
I was capturing these fuckers and putting them in shotglasses, and pouring various things on them to see if they would die. They didn't. They would crawl up the sides of the glass and get out. When I first heard about imid, I tried it with Complete in the shotglasses,and they were still walking away!
So that tells me the contact killer in Complete was not killing them.
2. There are dozens of makes of imid. Only Bayer Complete contains B-Cyfluthrin , yet all the different makes kill RAs, so one can deduce from this that the killing agent is the imid, whether it be in Merit, one of several Bayer products, or one of many other products.
As far as you thinking that you have a different unique variety of RAs, only you could test that, since you are assuming that I had a different type.
You could do the board a favor and try using just the "Tempo", and see if that works. I'm guessing it wouldn't, but prove me wrong. Simple enough.

Stifling the idea that anything other than Imid will kill these bugs is not helpful. Imid did not work for me. For whatever reason. I ran it through my system for a week at a time. My plants had no choice but to absorb it. I was also applying a foliar spray of it. Yet as soon as I removed it the bugs came back, which shows that the B-Cyfluthrin was killing the bugs, no? Or was Imid killing them on contact?

I am not stifling any idea. I am open to any ideas, but I can only recommend the things that I know work, without harming the plants. I don't surf the internet and throw out names of products that don't really work, like one well known troll does.

The fact is that when the Bayer Complete was in my rez the bugs were either dead or dying. The minute the Bayer was removed they began making a comeback. The crawlers numbers would immediately increase as would their rate of speed, and I would notice more fliers. I witnessed this on each round of plants that I was able to dose with the Imid.

That makes sense, because when you change the res, basically you are flushing your plants. Remember, when you are in hydro, the plants are always fully hydrated, so they are not going to absorb chems the way they way they would in coco for example. In coco, if you let the pots dry, and the plants begin to wilt, they will immediately and completely absorb the chems. So the RAs are eating nothing but imid and that means death.

I am currently running Evergreen solo. It kills RA's better than the other products I have used, and its the only one that hasnt fucked up my plants. Its also is far more compatible with my system than the others.

I'm glad it worked for you. Hopefully we can get someone who discovers they have RAs and uses that alone from the get go, and they can report results. It's about 10 times as expensive as Bayer, so that's going to be a consideration for some.

I have noticed a slight improvement in my veg plants since using the Evergreen, but my flowering plants are past the point of fucked. My plants were actually healthier when I didnt know I had RA's. The Bayer, and especially the Botanigard, while both having killed some bugs, have also added to the plants deterioration.

Once your plants are damaged enough, nothing's going to help them. I suspect that's the case in your situation. When the plants are weakened, they are also susceptible to all kinds of other things, especially in hydro. Trust me, if you hadn't treated them, they would have died. I had plenty of dead plants on my hands from these things, until I learned to treat them. Never had to use Botaniguard, but I can assure you that imid, in proper dosage will not fuck up your plants. You can test it on any common houseplant in proper (mild) dosage, and it will not hurt them. Also, Botaniguard has been used successfully by many, as reported in this thread. Would like to see some photos of your plants if you can post them.

 

[RetroGrow]

I am going to pick up the spectracide and the Bayer. I also have a bottle of azamax for the "mite" problem I thought I had. Can I mix the Azamax with the spectracide to create a more potent soup? Would the Azamax be better applied as an alternate after initial application of spectracide? Is azamax effective at all?

So the Bayer is a no go even at 50 days out?

Are these things like mites that will hang around in the room until the next crop? Obviously I will clear the room and take a bleach solution to my pots, room, and equipment.

I am thinking of hitting with spectracide first. However, if they are determined to stick around I may just sacrifice these plants as bait to get them centralized and blast them to hell with Bayer. Hopefully that will devastate their population enough for me to finish off any stragglers with the bleach spray. Then, next round I will take precautions in veg to be sure these are killed if they are present in my soil.

Lastly, do I need to spray around the outside of my containers where they seem to hang out sometimes?

Yes, you can use imid in early flower. Use Citrus, or Bayer Advanced Complete, as they have a lower concentration of imid than "Tree & Shrub", and they are approved for food crops if used anywhere from 7-21 days before harvest. Read the label. I would not get into mixing different chemicals. You don't know what might result.
You don't need to spray around containers, but it can't hurt. They eat roots, and if the roots contain imid, RAs will die.

Here's a video on RAs. Note comments below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqRKkHFN_cY

 

[budlover123]

the internets are full of lies.

garlic powder, not much, sprinkled on the surface, it can't hurt and it works for me despite everyone here who will say different even though they weren't even there, i've seen garlic work 3 for 3 times, twice on gnats

 

[Guest 88950]

at what level ppm of CO2 is needed to kill RA's and for what duration?

 

[Graham Purwatt]

anyone have any idea if you have them in hempy buckets of perlite,the tank beetle looking ones,would the bayer tree & shrub work plus watering in some diatamateous earth and throwing in some hot shot no pest strips possibly? whats the best thing to go with from home depot? considering a perpetual setup with 2 sets of plants,half just put in to flower,the others at 30 days flowering

 

[Graham Purwatt]

alright,i just put up the pest strips, applied about a half a cup of diatamaceous earth per plant and watered it in with a dilution of 3/4 a tbsp per gallon of bayer advance vegetable and garden spray w/cyfluthrin. hoping this will work to kill the bastards and keep them gone. any reason why not?

 

[RetroGrow]

The Bayer will kill them. The basic idea is to let the pots dry, even let the plants start to wilt a bit and then drench them. When pots are dry, they will suck the imid right up quickly, and those bastards will be history, as long as your roots are not damaged to the point where plant is not drinking. Diatomaceous earth probably not necessary. It is usually used on the surface to repel insects. Takes a while for them all to die so be patient. Be careful of no pest strips. Not good to breath in the vapors.

 

[RetroGrow]

the internets are full of lies.

garlic powder, not much, sprinkled on the surface, it can't hurt and it works for me despite everyone here who will say different even though they weren't even there, i've seen garlic work 3 for 3 times, twice on gnats

Garlic not going to kill RAs.
End of story.

 

[slowandeasy]

I am having a similar problem with some of my plants, but I am not sure if it is RA's or not. I tried looking tonight at the roots, and saw nothing. The problem is that I added another 600 and upgraded bulbs, which made a hotter than normal environment for a week or 2. So, it could be light intensity/ heat stress. Just so happens I used a new bag of Coco around the same time as I changed lighting.

I turned off the 1 600 and have the other lights plenty far away. My temps are about 80 F during the day and 73 at night. I used my digital camcorder and an LED light to inspect the root system of 2 plants and did not see anything. It seems like they all started getting wacked out around week 4 flower, a weird cal-mag def look And the plants I am flushing are yellowing really fast this round. I am hoping it is light intensity/ heat stress. I will keep an eye on the roots as well.

 

[Graham Purwatt]

thanks retro.i went back and got the bayer complete with imid & cyfluthrin instead and flushed them good with that.this morning nothing is flying and there are little dead black things already all over the floor.i am in perlite right now but going back to coco,i soaked my coco in the complete too as a preventive measure for when i start using it. my veggers don't seem to have the bugs but everything in flower sure does. the sad part is if it wasn't for 40 amps to freedoms thread and a friend having found some in his grow i probably never would've noticed them in mine.i need to tighten up.as far as the diatomaceous earth,it is pretty much useless in perlite,it all washed right through.

 

[RetroGrow]

I am having a similar problem with some of my plants, but I am not sure if it is RA's or not. I tried looking tonight at the roots, and saw nothing. The problem is that I added another 600 and upgraded bulbs, which made a hotter than normal environment for a week or 2. So, it could be light intensity/ heat stress. Just so happens I used a new bag of Coco around the same time as I changed lighting.

I turned off the 1 600 and have the other lights plenty far away. My temps are about 80 F during the day and 73 at night. I used my digital camcorder and an LED light to inspect the root system of 2 plants and did not see anything. It seems like they all started getting wacked out around week 4 flower, a weird cal-mag def look And the plants I am flushing are yellowing really fast this round. I am hoping it is light intensity/ heat stress. I will keep an eye on the roots as well.

Depending on stage of life, RAs can be very small. You will not see them with the naked eye. I use magnifying goggles and a bright LED flashlight to see them. You can use a loupe if you don't have the goggles. You sometimes have to stare at on spot for a minute or two before you will see one move. They are tricky little bastards, but if they are there, you will see them with magnification and patience.