Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[michigan.mmma]

I have been following your posts, and it sounds like you are being re-infected from outside. If you had them in your outside garden, flyers will get in the house and zero in on your plants with their incredible sense of smell.
If you are in coco, and you treated when the pots were dry and plants thirsty, it should not be a problem. It takes a while for them to die as they have to munch on treated roots first. But if they are outside, they will keep coming back, which is what I think is happening in your case.
Also I would forget about experimenting with other products. The only things that work are imid products and Botaniguard ES. This has pretty much been proven. Imid will kill them.
Do you have a big back yard?
If so, your entire yard is probably infested, and they are in the soil.
Anyway it does take a while for the imid to work so give it a few days.


PS: Your plants don't look bad at all. Not seeing any damage.
Keep at it. They eventually will be killed. Might take several applications due to re-infection.

yes i treated the 3 gal coco pots when the plants were thirsty. 15ml/gal bayer T&S and 5ml/gal bayer complete. I am watering these 3 times per day and watered each time with imid and 1/2 strength nutes for about a day and a half for a total of 4 waterings. watered them until a little runoff each time. i know its overkill but i wanted to try a stronger application since they came back after previous treatments. i know it will take a few days since i just treated sunday but im not optimistic.

"Did you treat when the pots were dry and were the plants still drinking?"
i let them get very dry on my first application so they absorbed a lot and also kept treating them for 3 more waterings just to experiment. all the plants are using a good amount of water. the larger plants about 3/4 gallon each today and the ones in the pics from before about 1/2 gallon. plants are still in a fairly healthy state(not for long) so they are drinking pretty normal.

the backyard is not a large one - 80X120 lot. i am puzzled however as to why the large aphids reacted to the IMID in such a manner and these micros seem like they are immune. i think you are right and they are coming from outside - thats the only thing that makes sense at this point. my neighbor put in a garden next door that was looking great and then i saw about a week ago what looks like aphid total devastation - its fried.

the plants in the pics were 1 day before going to 12/12 so the real damage has not set in yet. since the switch to coco and H&G, things have looked a little better, especially the roots. At this point in rockwool and DWC the aphids would have done much more damage but in the coco there are still lots of fuzzy hairy roots even though there are tons of aphids now. it may be from the roots excelurator i am not sure. even in flowering on one of the older plants, the damage i saw at two weeks in the other mediums i did not see until after 3 weeks in the H&G & coco. that is another reason i thought the aphids were gone - things look so good in the veg stage while they are building their numbers. i also think the root growth can be so fast in this stage, the plant does not show many signs of a problem, then 2-3 weeks into flower the real damage starts. on my plants, the leaves start yellowing but then quickly turn brown and crispy at the top and bottom of the plant. the branches all get very weak and start falling even before the buds start developing and plants stretch really bad. the buds and yield are so bad they are not worth the time and electricity it took to produce them. probably 8-10 TIMES less than what they would be. Usually i can only make BHO to salvage what they produce. they definitely do NOT look like F.Dupp's pics - i cant believe those buds were grown with RA micros - Damn. my pics were deceiving - those plants will go to shit soon.

the more i see with my eyes and read, i think these micros just dont respond like the larger aphids to imid. i have treated the DWC buckets and rockwool cubes only to see them return. i also treated these plants in coco when they were younger just to be safe.

 

[RetroGrow]

No doubt then if you see them in your yard and your neighbors yard, they are in your neighborhood and keep getting in the house.
Do you have a dog?
They can hitch a ride on the dog too.
By the way, the stuff they use on dogs to kill fleas is imid. It's called "Spot On". I've used it for 30 years.
When I used imid in coco, one application of Bayer complete was all it took.
Not another RA since.
You can also use as a foliar spray, but I think you have given them enough.
It will work, but don't know how you will keep the outside ones outside.

 

[michigan.mmma]

I am wondering if it isnt possible that Michigan.mmma doesnt have RA's but the Hypoapsis things that Beta was talking about. I mean if he has never seen a flier could it be RA's? I thought his plants looked pretty damn good. None of the spotting or yellowing death look associated with these bitches.

Michigan, maybe you could nab a few of them and bring them to a local university agricultural dept or something.

I did get a better picture of one of the fliers. Real ugly little fuckers.

Magnified 600x
View attachment 130560

Root Aphids- The latest weapon in The War on "Drugs"

i wish i had those and not RAs!!! lol

when the lights turn on i will get some pics of some carnage. hahaha

i wanted to post those pics to show people that plants that look like that can still be heavily infected at the root zone. no gnats and no fliers. Hard as hell to detect before there are tons in the rootzone. just appear to have beginning stages of Mg deficiency. then you flip 12/12, RA numbers growing and growing, and plants that look this healthy are fucked. for me, plants that are vegged that normally would produce 4+oz only produce about 1/2 oz in the end - plants that are 60" tall. thats why these RAs are so hard to detect - people see the damage like mine in the pics and start looking at Mg or some nute deficiency and would never even think to look at the root zone for a bug. thats what i did!

i have a friend that lives about 40 mins from me. He kept wanting me to stop over to help him with a yellowing problem we was having. for the last year, my confidence in growing has been shit. i also thought i forgot how to grow so i never helped him. i saw him about a week ago and we talked about RAs. i told him what to look for and to read this thread. after hearing his symptoms i was convinced and he called me the next day and identified the micros also. poor bastard.

love that pic! lol

 

[michigan.mmma]

No doubt then if you see them in your yard and your neighbors yard, they are in your neighborhood and keep getting in the house.
Do you have a dog?
They can hitch a ride on the dog too.
By the way, the stuff they use on dogs to kill fleas is imid. It's called "Spot On". I've used it for 30 years.
When I used imid in coco, one application of Bayer complete was all it took.
Not another RA since.
You can also use as a foliar spray, but I think you have given them enough.
It will work, but don't know how you will keep the outside ones outside.

no dogs or pets that go outside. i never water or mess with outside plants or mow grass then go into growrooms. only after shower and change of clothes and dont wear shoes in the house.

i have been seeing the occasional house fly in my flowering room as i have for years. it has co2 enrichment and i thought i heard some years ago bugs are attracted to that. could they be bringing them in? i have NOT seen any in the veg room which is about 50' away and the plants definitely have RAs before they get to the flower room.

i have been thinking lately if i can find the source, i will have a much better chance of battling these things. so if this is where they are coming from i guess i am making some kind of progress. thanks for the direction.

i hate to say it but the info has been in front of my face the whole time if this theory is correct. these burning bushes i have been talking about are located literally on the other side of the cement wall of the flowering room. the plants in the basement are on the floor and the bushes outside are above at ground level but they are probably within 10 feet of each other. i have lived at this house for about 5 years and never saw an aphid in the growrooms or outside in the yard/garden EVER until this year. i did not think the micros in my hydro were coming from the bushes for a few reasons.
1. the appearance of the 2 are so much different. the black ones could not have the micros as offspring could they? or produce the micros somehow?
2. the different reaction to IMID treatments
3. the location of the aphid on the plant. the micros are only in the root zone and the burning bushes had them at the very tops of the branches.
4. i had them all through the cold months. would they be alive through the winter to make their way in?

What kind of RAs did you have?

 

[cyat]

mm try the 2 in 1 and be done i had em for years not now

 

[zor]

the more i see with my eyes and read, i think these micros just dont respond like the larger aphids to imid. i have treated the DWC buckets and rockwool cubes only to see them return. i also treated these plants in coco when they were younger just to be safe.

michigan, your experience AND pictures are exactly the same as MANY people's experience, including mine.

There is even a uni study that tells of phloxerra eggs living in 7 mins dipped in bleach! If this is the case, i believe these particular ones would laugh at imid as many have experienced.

 

[zor]

If you think you have a better solution, let's hear it.

I don't have a better solution other than for growers around the world to share there experience and knowledge.

Again, i'm imploring you to share your evidence for your claims so that as a community, we can make progress on these issues.

I understand that you used imid once and were immediately ok. But i assure you, many people WISH it were that easy. If you don't know what i'm talking about, nor have read these horror stories from VERY experienced growers, then you have ALOT of reading to do before you go making claims of what works or does not.

You assume that your 2 remedies work and then go on to make theories as to why they don't work in some cases in order to support that. I'm pretty sure based on your posts that you are genuinely tryin to help. But i believe that because you havent read some of the threads on the other boards about this, you are actually
perpetuating false information.

 

[RetroGrow]

I don't have a better solution other than for growers around the world to share there experience and knowledge.

Again, i'm imploring you to share your evidence for your claims so that as a community, we can make progress on these issues.

I understand that you used imid once and were immediately ok. But i assure you, many people WISH it were that easy. If you don't know what i'm talking about, nor have read these horror stories from VERY experienced growers, then you have ALOT of reading to do before you go making claims of what works or does not.

You assume that your 2 remedies work and then go on to make theories as to why they don't work in some cases in order to support that. I'm pretty sure based on your posts that you are genuinely tryin to help. But i believe that because you havent read some of the threads on the other boards about this, you are actually
perpetuating false information.

The "other boards" are for the most part horrific and a complete waste of time, and you have contributed nothing but negativity to this thread.
You have no idea what you are talking about, and haven't come up with any of your own solutions.
You keep saying imid or Botaniguard don't work, when many other people besides myself know they do work. If the plants roots are fubr, there's nothing that can be done. If people discover the RAs too late, there is nothing that can be done.
If RAs are all over the house and outside the house, they will continue to invade. There is a plague of RAs in certain areas, and they are mobile.
I have never put anyone on ignore before, but you are very close, because your whining is getting old and you contribute nothing. There is only one cannabis site that is "the shit" and that's here. This is where you will find the knowledge. Those other sites are a waste of time. When you come up with a better solution, let's hear it, otherwise put a lid on it.

 

[F. Dupp]

I found 3 crawlies and a flier today. I am going to hang Hot Shot No Pest Strips in the rooms today. I doubt it will affect the crawlies, cause they are enclosed in the system, but I have had it with the fliers spreading their disease.

 

[michigan.mmma]

some people commented that my plants looked ok. i wanted to post the same strain that is a few weeks farther along in flower, and leaves from another that is about 2 weeks to finish. the problem with the RAs is that when people discover they have them and finally see this very identifiable damage, its way too late.
so the first pics you will see plants a few weeks longer into flower than the nice green pics from before with a small Mg deficiency. You can see the chlorotic spaces between the veins getting more pale and starting to turn necrotic. the tips of the leaves also get paper thin and crisp up. from this point they just get worse every day.

the next pics are the leaves from one at about 40 days. i cant take a good pic of this plant under the hps with my phone.

 

[michigan.mmma]

here are pics of the neighbors garden i was talking about and also some pics of the burning bushes. this corner of the house is where the flowering room is located. Just keep in mind, i am getting the RAs in the veg room which is at the front of the house before things even get to that room.

i dont want to paint the picture there are RAs all over tons of vegetation right outside the house. the plants treated that lived are looking fine and the other plants along the house are showing no bad signs.

 

[zor]

The "other boards" are for the most part horrific and a complete waste of time, and you have contributed nothing but negativity to this thread.
You have no idea what you are talking about, and haven't come up with any of your own solutions.
You keep saying imid or Botaniguard don't work, when many other people besides myself know they do work. If the plants roots are fubr, there's nothing that can be done. If people discover the RAs too late, there is nothing that can be done.
If RAs are all over the house and outside the house, they will continue to invade. There is a plague of RAs in certain areas, and they are mobile.
I have never put anyone on ignore before, but you are very close, because your whining is getting old and you contribute nothing. There is only one cannabis site that is "the shit" and that's here. This is where you will find the knowledge. Those other sites are a waste of time. When you come up with a better solution, let's hear it, otherwise put a lid on it.

ive contributed my experience as well as countless hours of searching this site as well as the other sites. Your claim that this site is the only site with good info on it is ironic to say the least.

I never said the methods you suggest do not work at all. I'm only trying to clarify to anyone else that it is not 'proven' as you claim. If it is proven, then back it up and contribute in a significant way. We are all here to learn. I'm sorry if that is offensive to you. It is by no means my intention. I seek to help myself and other growers combat these pests as i believe you do as well.

 

[overgrowit]

retrogrow, why do you think coco would be best in terms of killing them or preventing.

I was thinking of using a ebb and grow with net pots to keep an eye on the roots. Also, It seems like it would be easier to submerge the whole root mass in insecticide for extended times. That is one thing i havent been able to try.

Maybe smaller pots of coco would work also as they would be easier to treat or dunk. Im in 7 gallon pots of promix now and it takes alot of chems to properly soak the medium.

Ive heard of people having RAs in hydroton or net pots but im not sure if they were the micro sized ones

 

[RetroGrow]

retrogrow, why do you think coco would be best in terms of killing them or preventing.

I was thinking of using a ebb and grow with net pots to keep an eye on the roots. Also, It seems like it would be easier to submerge the whole root mass in insecticide for extended times. That is one thing i havent been able to try.

Maybe smaller pots of coco would work also as they would be easier to treat or dunk. Im in 7 gallon pots of promix now and it takes alot of chems to properly soak the medium.

Ive heard of people having RAs in hydroton or net pots but im not sure if they were the micro sized ones

They are just easier to treat in coco, and lots of soil mixes have RAs in them. Also in hydro systems, they are more difficult to get rid of, although I don't know why.
In coco, just let the pots get dry and drench with solution until run off and you are good to go. The plants soak up the solution very fast when the coco is dry. One application for me was all that was necessary. Never saw another RA after that.
Use Bayer Complete Advanced, not Tree & Shrub, as it's made for flowering plants and food products and doesn't linger in the medium as long due to lower concentration. Also has a contact killer which will wipe out fungus gnats and other pests.
Others have had problems with net pots. Check about ten pages back.

 

[RetroGrow]

ive contributed my experience as well as countless hours of searching this site as well as the other sites. Your claim that this site is the only site with good info on it is ironic to say the least.

I never said the methods you suggest do not work at all. I'm only trying to clarify to anyone else that it is not 'proven' as you claim. If it is proven, then back it up and contribute in a significant way. We are all here to learn. I'm sorry if that is offensive to you. It is by no means my intention. I seek to help myself and other growers combat these pests as i believe you do as well.

I have contributed to this from day one.
You have contributed nothing.
The method IS proven.
If you can't get it to work, it's because you waited too long or are doing something wrong.
I suggest you take your whining and disinformation to those other sites,all of which are crap compared to this site, where you have the finest growers and breeders in the world.
You are a waste of time so I am done with you.
Go to "grass city" or one of those other sites where you have done "countless hours of research", none of it leading to any solutions.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

 

[zor]

I have contributed to this from day one.
You have contributed nothing.
The method IS proven.
If you can't get it to work, it's because you waited too long or are doing something wrong.
I suggest you take your whining and disinformation to those other sites,all of which are crap compared to this site, where you have the finest growers and breeders in the world.
You are a waste of time so I am done with you.
Go to "grass city" or one of those other sites where you have done "countless hours of research", none of it leading to any solutions.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

From what ive read and experienced, there are no hard fast cure Maybe you're right, and lots of very experienced growers are all wrong, and everybody else's knowledge of the matter is invalid. I'm sure lots of people would love to learn something knew about this.

Whatever the case, id be nice if we could continue to trade information in a civil manner. There is alot of very relevant info not contained in this thread regarding aphids and i feel this is very important to get to the bottom of. The icmag community is indeed a knowledable one, so lets bring out ALL the issues for discussion even if it presents no easy one fits all 'proven solution'.

 

[RetroGrow]

This is my last post to you.
Go back to page one & read the entire thread.
Some of us know what the solution is.
It's not a mystery.
The only mystery is how you can be so obtuse and whiney.
This is a long thread, because people come on late, don't read, and ask the same questions over & over. A lot of disinformation has been spread by the "Johnny come latelys", including yourself.
It isn't a mystery.
The only mystery is how this plague started.
Some of us, who are very experienced, know the solution.
But you go ahead to some of the other kiddie sites & get your information from the clueless.
I repeat, you have contributed nothing here.

 

[max_well]

Imidacloprid resistance
http://ricehoppers.net/2009/03/imidacloprid-from-hero-to-zero-in-the-control-of-brown-planthopper/
The way that insecticides are applied in the indoor gardening world, often without the standards of integrated pest management or natural predation to control populations, creates resistant insects. It's not surprising that many have found imid resistant root aphids in their gardens. Pyrethrin resistance can happen quickly as well.

 

[zor]

Imidacloprid resistance
http://ricehoppers.net/2009/03/imidacloprid-from-hero-to-zero-in-the-control-of-brown-planthopper/
The way that insecticides are applied in the indoor gardening world, often without the standards of integrated pest management or natural predation to control populations, creates resistant insects. It's not surprising that many have found imid resistant root aphids in their gardens. Pyrethrin resistance can happen quickly as well.

Great info max_well. The resistance to chemical poisons is a reality that many commercial farmers of all types have to deal with on a regular basis.

This is why, that a cycled approach of different types of treatments are often utilized to manage this tendency.

For those that are having persistent problems, rotation of treatments (imid, spectrazide, pyrethrin, azamax, sns 203) is often recommended.

Here is a video from a grower with an 800x microscope showing imid resistence aphids.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6d-Uhw6gkE&feature=player_embedded

 

[zor]

Some of us know what the solution is.
It's not a mystery.
The only mystery is how you can be so obtuse and whiney.\A lot of disinformation has been spread by the "Johnny come latelys", including yourself.
It isn't a mystery.
The only mystery is how this plague started.
Some of us, who are very experienced, know the solution.
But you go ahead to some of the other kiddie sites & get your information from the clueless.
I repeat, you have contributed nothing here.

Call me whatever names you want. It doesn't change the fact that many experienced growers with lots of knowledge disagree with you. This doesnt have to be a bad thing, as disagreements, coupled with sound explanations helps us all understand better.