passive plant killer

[delta9nxs]

Delta9, I think what happened is that I forgot to fully drain (tilting to eliminate the pwt) the turface during the initial prep. process. It's the only thing I can come up with. It's not the wicking material or the plant. It's not the smaller "latch" container. Humidity was never above 55% in the room with the clones. It's a small, empty, clean bedroom, shades pulled, no mildew on the window glass. One of three that survived has started to slowly yellow. The covers have been off for two days. none of the perlite cuts have wilted or rotted. the perlite that i use is graded as coarse. big pieces, rinsed to remove the dust. i'll take some more in a few days and put them in turface.

i don't know, zeke, my wicks drain the pwt automatically. it is obvious that your containers stayed too wet, though.

something we haven't discussed is air embolism. with hollow stems i turn them upside down in water and thump them lightly a few times. but that really isn't too likely in your case. i could see one or two once in a while but not a large percentage of cuts at once.

don't feel obligated to use turface if you are more successful in perlite.

good luck with the next batch.

 

[zeke99]

i don't know, zeke, my wicks drain the pwt automatically. it is obvious that your containers stayed too wet, though.

My wicks do too, but when I'm pre-soaking for cuttings, I'm not waiting around for the things to drain. I'm draining them myself and moving on to the next task. That's the point. When I put those first cuttings in turface, I think I poured off as much water as possible and than just dumped the turface into the container and put the clone right in.

 

[delta9nxs]

My wicks do too, but when I'm pre-soaking for cuttings, I'm not waiting around for the things to drain. I'm draining them myself and moving on to the next task. That's the point. When I put those first cuttings in turface, I think I poured off as much water as possible and than just dumped the turface into the container and put the clone right in.

i gotcha now. thanks for letting me know what's happening.

 

[Snook]

I'm going to get it on with the turface and rice hulls.... I think. I like the idea of not pre-loading, alot. but cant find either (on the web) in my area (same like the atami, you used to use). where are you getting it from? you are going almost full circle, back to turface (w rice hulls, 3:1)? do you have a source link? I'll have it shipped..

 

[dgr]

Snook,
You can call these guys and order a pallet. Or they might tell you if there is a retailer in your area.
http://www.mallardcreekinc.com/

 

[delta9nxs]

http://www.turface.com/distributors/state/ i pay 10 bucks a bag locally.

http://www.hhydro.com/PBH-Rice-Hulls.html these people only charge 15.95 for a 50 lb bale, but i'm sure there is someone closer to you.

with shipping it would still be under 45 dollars. i did the math on it and one bale at the 3/1 ratio is enough rice hulls to pot up over 60 of my 3.5's.

in stuttgart, ark. they will sell you a 50 ft trailer full for 140 a ton. i think the guy said they could get 6 tons on the truck.

http://wikimapia.org/6136786/Sem-Chi-Rice-Mill these people are the only rice mill in florida. there will be shit piles of rice hulls there.

 

[Snook]

Snook,
You can call these guys and order a pallet. Or they might tell you if there is a retailer in your area.
http://www.mallardcreekinc.com/

Great dgr, thanks... I couldnt imagine whaqt they'll charge for shipping..a pallet of the stuff but I go there now.. be back later w results> the othere side of the coin: shipping cant be bad for the rice hulls, once I find 'them'. HAHA! I'm thinking, also, about my buying RO @ $1.50/5gallons but I do not like going there. think it would be cost efficient if I bought another dehumidifier and plugged it in, outside (florida=HIGH! humidity) on a timer, on top of a 25-30gal tub and collect condensate? cost efficient??, I dont think so but tell me I'm wrong. I've used condensate during this run with no ill effects. I do knot know how to do the math. I draw the line at about $3/gallon, I guess $3-400 for the dehuey has to be factored in and the electricity....??? ROI? good idea? bad? EDIT: I'm wasted! site IS for the rice hulls!

So much for that dgr, she said the freight would be "hundreds"! but I'll keep looking.

 

[disciple]

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

disciple

D9 runs a 'homerun' line from control to each bucket. He's recently increased it's diameter.

I've played with the same. Currently I'm only growing one plant with an attached control with an ID of 1/2"... and it's still not as fast as I"m looking for.

My point is that it is currently being experimented with.

For me (and I've been active on this for some time) it is a departure from my very first feelings towards common solution (I overlooked, somehow, that equilibrium is a two way street (actually, I thought there might be enough upward current to meaningfully prevent downward equalibrium trends, but was wrong))... [Shit, that was a lot of parentheses.]

With regard to 40 trees, I imagine there are more logistical concerns than just how to attach them all to one reservoir... but even if there weren't, the load on just one pump to feed 40 points might start to become rather demanding.

If I were in your hypothetical position, mono-cropping, (or at least steady-rotation cropping), well... I have some ideas, but too much speculation.

If your gonna push a set up that size, or help design one, add in more details as they become apparent. I have some general ideas of how to approach the scale, but it would need to be dialed into your actual application to be meaningful.

Not to mention, there are a lot of other clever, bored growers lurking (and participating) in this thread who would love a little mental exercise...

 

[delta9nxs]

Delta9nxs or Imaginary Friend:

FOUND THE ANSWER TO THIS (DUHHHH) - no need to answer guys sorry!!! Is the pulse feed bucket (with the pump in it) plumbed from the control reservoir? I do not recall if this detail was mentioned in any of the previous (160) pages and several rather comprehensive searches did not reveal this info (but obviously it makes complete sense for simplicity and nutrient composition consistency). FOUND THE ANSWER TO THIS (DUHHHH) - no need to answer guys sorry!!!

When the pump pulse-feeds the plants does the level in that bucket drop faster than the solution in the pump bucket is replaced? would a larger I.D. line to the pump bucket from the control bucket help?

Any thought on how many PPK's per control-bucket and pulse-feed-pump bucket if you were going to run say (40) trees?

Any advantage to running larger I.D. lines throughout the system?

thank you!

hey! the pump puts the solution out in a relatively short duration time frame. since the interval between pulses is much longer there is sufficient time for it to refill. i think the same diameter line you use to the reservoir buckets should be fine.

until recently all my lines, both the sub-irrigation and the pulse feed, were all the standard 1/4 od, .170 id drip tubing they sell at lowes. it worked fine but after about a year started to clog up regularly. and it also put a back pressure penalty on my pumps.

the largest plants, including the 22 oz one, were all grown like this.

i decided to increase the sub-irrigation lines to 1/4 id, 3/8 od tubing, go to a faster medium, and improve the pulse delivery. i am doing this one plant at a time in an attempt to shorten the length of time it takes for the system to come to equilibrium. this, in turn, allows more time for the sub-irrigation to work between pulses. i have now accomplished the sub-irrigation system changeover and am about halfway through the media changeover. i intend to change the pulse feed on 4 plants in veg at one time and nine plants in flower at one time.

your question about how many buckets to put on a control/pulse set up is hard to answer. i used my mag drive 950's just because i already had them left over from another type of system.

with 40+ plants and my pumps i would put 10-12 max to a control/pulse group plumbed with the 1/4 id 3/8 od line and then plumb all four to the volume tank(s) with 1/4 id 3/8 od line individually with a tire valve installed per group. or run a single 1/2" supply line to all four with t's and grommets or bulkhead fittings.

or run all buckets off a single control bucket and single pump bucket. the sub-irrigated feed does not need equal length lines to function so a single 1/2" line from the volume tank going around the room splitting off with t's to each reservoir bucket. a 1/2" line from the control to the pump bucket. this method would require a larger, more industrial float valve and a big honking pump. Both the pump and control buckets would have to be much larger to handle the volume. this would cut down on the total length of line required.

No matter how you plumb the pulse feed the lines need to be equal length to get equal delivery volume. Commercial greenhouses all use pressurized systems with controlled volume emitters to get equal delivery. They are very expensive to buy and trouble prone to operate. The way we are doing it here is trouble free. I have had absolutely no problems with it. No failures, no breakdowns, total reliability and cheap.

I've been thinking a lot about larger rooms lately and have other ideas. I'm sure at this point we have others with large plant experience in these things who probably have ideas to improve it. Imaginary Friend is doing some cool things experimentally on his thread.

I consider this to be like linux. Open source and continually improved. By the people.

Disciple, if you can put up a scale drawing of your room showing plant locations I can do a better job of designing some plumbing options for you.

later

 

[delta9nxs]

here is the first g13 clone to go to flower. just over 31" at exactly 4 weeks. right on schedule. same time it took with coco or the coco mixes. this one is in the 3/1 turface/rh mix shown below.

the g13 has a unique growing trait. the meristem is not the tallest part of the plant. the seedling was the same. on both plants the meristem was surpassed by one of the adjacent branches.

this clone has much more branching than the seedling. tighter nodes. i think clones, because they are already more mature than a seedling, put on more mass in the allotted time frame.

well, that's all folks!

 

[Snook]

http://www.turface.com/distributors/state/ i pay 10 bucks a bag locally.

http://www.hhydro.com/PBH-Rice-Hulls.html these people only charge 15.95 for a 50 lb bale, but i'm sure there is someone closer to you.

with shipping it would still be under 45 dollars. i did the math on it and one bale at the 3/1 ratio is enough rice hulls to pot up over 60 of my 3.5's.

in stuttgart, ark. they will sell you a 50 ft trailer full for 140 a ton. i think the guy said they could get 6 tons on the truck.

http://wikimapia.org/6136786/Sem-Chi-Rice-Mill these people are the only rice mill in florida. there will be shit piles of rice hulls there.

How do you find these places? I've been looking hard and come up with zero. That sem-chi place is within 'reasonable' driving distance from me but I can not get there in the next couple weeks, so going with the hhhydro.com place, shipping is $37.50 but I'll have it in a week. Now about turface... you prefer MVP. I've found turface locally but not MVP (yet) they have 'professional' will this work? I'm sure it will but will it drive me crazy screening for larger granules? I have been useing napa 8820 for clones (I realize it is diotomaceious earth) and it works well. Your reaction to the use of 8820 is?

Kinda ironic... rice patties in Florida. who would of thought? Florida crystals = Big sugar!

 

[disciple]

 

[mrcreosote]

Hey D9,
I thought I'd pop in to see how the battle goes...

Damn man! Those fans are HUGE. I'd be very careful in that room if I were you...
Those plants look like they could turn carnivorous on you at any time. Think of Seymour.

Got my stent yanked out last week, no problem. no new one, finally (guess his car is paid for) and stomach biopsy says I'll live.
I went to pick up my turface. Sold out. Big rain finally flooded the state and they bought this guy out.
Good old local NAPA had the 8822 so since it holds more water than turface (according to the garden web turface guru) I mixed it 3-2 with perlite and my little sprouts seem to like it fine. It's finer than I thought it would be but screened wet in a kitchen strainer (about the same mesh as window screen) left a very small amount of fines, easily less than 5%.
I put a couple of cotton wicks in 22oz foam cups and set them on my wicked germ tray with the same mix and just top water daily. This will do until I grab some tailpieces and make a proper media wick pots.
Wicks are sheer genius. Impossible to over-water (within reasonable timing)
Since I'm going to grow much smaller plants when I can clone these, I thought about using a fine mesh 8" net pot (mostly because drilling a zillion tiny holes is like work) that will hold about a 1 1/4-1/2 gallon of media.

I'm thinking that the reason this works so well for you is the large amount of available air to the roots and the pulsed top watering can compensate for the almost certain increase in evaporation that a net pot will have.

Or I could just be a barking lunatic. We shall see.

I'm still undecided on the best use of my 2'x4' closet space. Whether to go with a 3 plant modular scrog or a 2 plant vertical single 400w. I have plenty of time to make up my mind.
No big deal to get a bigger bucket and try both ways, I suppose.

Any thoughts you can add would be appreciated as you are the PPK go-to guy.

Tell Mrs. D9 that my daughter really loves your kitty. She sent a pic of her office and kitty pic is over her work station beside Frankie and Trixie's pic, her underwear eating dogs.

 

[delta9nxs]

How do you find these places? I've been looking hard and come up with zero. That sem-chi place is within 'reasonable' driving distance from me but I can not get there in the next couple weeks, so going with the hhhydro.com place, shipping is $37.50 but I'll have it in a week. Now about turface... you prefer MVP. I've found turface locally but not MVP (yet) they have 'professional' will this work? I'm sure it will but will it drive me crazy screening for larger granules? I have been useing napa 8820 for clones (I realize it is diotomaceious earth) and it works well. Your reaction to the use of 8820 is?

Kinda ironic... rice patties in Florida. who would of thought? Florida crystals = Big sugar!

hey snook! if you look at the msds for each turface product you'll see the bulk density rating for each. all turface products except the heritage pro have bulk densities of 35 lbs per cubic ft. the heritage pro is 39 lbs per cubic foot so it will be the finest. i've only used the mvp and used to screen it for fines but with the rice hulls i'm finding that it is not necessary.

the napa 8822, even though it comes from a completely different source than turface, has almost identical physical properties. even the silica content is the same. it behaves the same. i haven't used it yet but have been meaning to try it sometime. i think mixed with rice hulls at the same % it should be fine.

but i don't know any of this for sure as i've only tried the mvp.

no matter what you get and mix test it using the crude porosity test i show. 30-40 % for a pulsed ppk.

hey, you want to start a fake argument on that new jack's hydro thread that the op started with a period?

 

[delta9nxs]

Thank you for the responses guys!!

There was a plan to put (2) per tub and (20) tubs. With the PPKs they'll be in separate units (no double up). Have mag drives on hand (250 GPH, 750 GPH, 900-ish and the big 1800 GPH) so it'll be ok in that department.

was thinking of doing RDWC before really following Dizzle's advice, then saw Janus (recirc perlite) and then had to get a rough guess on plant size to yield. Came back across D9 and the PPK. I was able to get an idea of what a 1/2 pound tree and 1 lb tree look like thanks to D9. Then wanted some real-world guidance on defoliating trees and D9 came up again in search. (Thank you for the guidance). Then saw the yields (and with 4-wks veg which is what I want) and that really drew my attention to the PPK.

i should be ok with the room layout as well as the plumbing... just needed a bit more info on specifics. My RDWC was going to be (8) trees per tank so I can easily run (5) PPK control buckets and have the same (8) PPK per system with (5) discrete setups.

I have (2) spaces to consider and the temporary space I'm using for the first run only may do well with defoliated, smaller plants partially top lit (adjust-a-wings) as well as vertical bare bulbs. going to work that out as I go and I can do either and have experience with both.

the plan (and if its not till the second run then that's what it'll be) is large trees lit on all 4 sides. It'll be 600's instead of 1K's and there may be 400 watters overhead in LR's or double-parabolic... will get 'em shorter than 5' with defoliation and then the 400W top lights will get down further... on the other hand it may be 600W over head too.... or 400W hanging bare... I'll let you know. Also going to be pulsing through perlite with as much of the media wetted each time as possible and as frequently as possible.

the following pics are:

close-up of leaf condition and color. looks ok to defoliate



then a before and after the first defoliation of (2) plants:



and then a shot of the canopy right after defoliation and then about (4) days later:



some gear waiting to be fired up:



thanks guys!

you've certainly got the pump collection. what has to be balanced is pump flow rate, tubing size, pump bucket volume, and control bucket volume.

you could use a very small pump for everything but it takes longer to pulse the needed volume than a larger pump. you can't pump more volume than the pump bucket holds so it needs to be sized right or use multiple buckets. your supply line from the volume tank needs to be either large enough to supply a single large bucket or several smaller ones independently. (more tire valves).

each pump bucket will have to have it's own pump. the repeat cycle timer can run all pumps only if they are the same size. if not you will need a separate controller for each bucket or set of buckets that use the same size pump.

if you use a larger tubing than the 1/4 id 3/8 od tubing for the sub system you can't use the tires valves. you will have to go to larger fittings and seals.

you have nice looking plants and know what you are doing so these are just ideas for you to consider.

d9

 

[Snook]

hey snook! if you look at the msds for each turface product you'll see the bulk density rating for each. all turface products except the heritage pro have bulk densities of 35 lbs per cubic ft. the heritage pro is 39 lbs per cubic foot so it will be the finest. i've only used the mvp and used to screen it for fines but with the rice hulls i'm finding that it is not necessary.

the napa 8822, even though it comes from a completely different source than turface, has almost identical physical properties. even the silica content is the same. it behaves the same. i haven't used it yet but have been meaning to try it sometime. i think mixed with rice hulls at the same % it should be fine.

but i don't know any of this for sure as i've only tried the mvp.

no matter what you get and mix test it using the crude porosity test i show. 30-40 % for a pulsed ppk.

hey, you want to start a fake argument on that new jack's hydro thread that the op started with a period?

Too late for arguing.. that thread is gone!

Rice hulls are on the way, I'll try the 'professional' (1 bag) and give it a go. Maybe 1-2 ppks get the 3/1 mix, the others, I can use up the remaining coco I have on hand.

 

[delta9nxs]

Hey D9,
I thought I'd pop in to see how the battle goes...

Damn man! Those fans are HUGE. I'd be very careful in that room if I were you...
Those plants look like they could turn carnivorous on you at any time. Think of Seymour.

Got my stent yanked out last week, no problem. no new one, finally (guess his car is paid for) and stomach biopsy says I'll live.
I went to pick up my turface. Sold out. Big rain finally flooded the state and they bought this guy out.
Good old local NAPA had the 8822 so since it holds more water than turface (according to the garden web turface guru) I mixed it 3-2 with perlite and my little sprouts seem to like it fine. It's finer than I thought it would be but screened wet in a kitchen strainer (about the same mesh as window screen) left a very small amount of fines, easily less than 5%.
I put a couple of cotton wicks in 22oz foam cups and set them on my wicked germ tray with the same mix and just top water daily. This will do until I grab some tailpieces and make a proper media wick pots.
Wicks are sheer genius. Impossible to over-water (within reasonable timing)
Since I'm going to grow much smaller plants when I can clone these, I thought about using a fine mesh 8" net pot (mostly because drilling a zillion tiny holes is like work) that will hold about a 1 1/4-1/2 gallon of media.

I'm thinking that the reason this works so well for you is the large amount of available air to the roots and the pulsed top watering can compensate for the almost certain increase in evaporation that a net pot will have.

Or I could just be a barking lunatic. We shall see.

I'm still undecided on the best use of my 2'x4' closet space. Whether to go with a 3 plant modular scrog or a 2 plant vertical single 400w. I have plenty of time to make up my mind.
No big deal to get a bigger bucket and try both ways, I suppose.

Any thoughts you can add would be appreciated as you are the PPK go-to guy.

Tell Mrs. D9 that my daughter really loves your kitty. She sent a pic of her office and kitty pic is over her work station beside Frankie and Trixie's pic, her underwear eating dogs.

i think i'm safe as long as i feed them.

good news on the stent procedure! my duct is holding up fine. went for a long bike ride this morning. life is good.

i like the net pot idea for small plants. but what are you going to use for a tailpiece? the regular one is way bigger than you need but will probably work fine. we need to find something 1/2" or so. maybe 3/4.

bow wow!

in a 2x4 space you just don't have much room for vertical. IF is doing a one plant scrog with two 600's horizontal and the growth is ferocious. a good way to max a tight space.

you know it's all about veg time and when to flip. less veg time more plants. more veg time less plants.

hey, can you put up a photo of the napa stuff next to a ruler? close up if possible?

later

 

[delta9nxs]

snook, can you also put up a photo of the pro turface? with a ruler please.

 

[catman]

to Delta9 and ImaginaryFriend

I love reading wise words from individuals who understand that in general, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. The openness you guys have towards ideas and change has created a very informational thread and a civil one at that. The linux analogy is fitting, though you guys have been great leaders getting this all started so please, pat yourselves on the back for the great work you have done/started.

Before I begin, I should probably explain how I understand the PPK operates as described by D9 because I've been wrong before!

The level of solution in the lower bucket regulates the PWT and one of the major advantages of PPK is that it keeps the PWT below the majority of roots while still allowing the tap root/water roots to fill in the tailpiece. Because the upper and lower buckets are sealed air tight, pulsing water causes less water to adhere to the medium and more water ending up in the lower bucket. When the water enters the lower bucket, it displaces the oxygen and whatever other gases up through the tailpiece. Watering from the top while passively watering from the bottom keeps nutrients moving around until they are used.

As it is often said, timing is everything and it seems to me that timing everything is the trickiest part of managing a PPK system. The timing is controlled by many factors including the size and properties of the medium, volume of containers and tubing, evaporation rate, pump flow rate, what water the plant uses, and of course, the actual mechanical/electrical timer controlling the pulses.

The amount of water a plant uses varies as does the evaporation rate to a lesser extent while the other variables are more fixed. What I have been trying to achieve is a theoretical model of PPK that does not use a timer on the pulse pumps. I wonder if there is a way to create a system so that the plant's use of water itself regulates the timing of the entire system.

I believe in order to achieve this, the system would have to be recirculating and would stray from the original idea of PPK, but I think such a system that I will propose still has the fundamentals of what makes a PPK system. Maybe this system is flawed already, but I have some ideas that I don't believe have been mentioned elsewhere.. but I've been wrong before!

The first aspect I would like to point out is that there is an additional bucket inside of the lower bucket. Why? This 3rd bucket will overflow and thus the height of this bucket can regulate AND sustain a constant PWT. It also will of course be emptied sooner from being wicked upwards.

To set the system in motion, it will be watered from the top until the 3rd bucket overflows enough to trigger a float valve (more like a float switch) that activates the orange pump which will quickly move a large amount of water to be fed back into the tub and will be promptly turned off. The rapid movement of water will force gases up the tailpiece just like D9's original concept.

Now, the air line. *mistress* alluded that not having the upper and lower buckets sealed air tight (by placing a round bucket in a larger square bucket) creates more contact with water and air for more dissolved oxygen. The seal between the two buckets seems to be a fundamental aspect of PPK and more dissolved oxygen is a good thing, but we can have both. The air line would run to a tube creating an 'air pump' like in a Hydrofarm and what this does in addition to moving air into the bucket, is it creates a fountain of water droplets which splash into the water; breaking the surface tension which is how I understand oxygen to actually be dissolved in water. Stirring stagnant water around with a wooden spoon does the same thing in just a plain bucket. In addition to increases DO, the air being pumped in has to go somewhere and what I'm unsure of is whether it would raise the solution level and thus the PWT and/or if it would create a bubbling effect at the top of the PWT in the tailpiece. If adding air into the bottom bucket would serve no purpose, another water pump could just be used to create a fountain effect.

So ultimately what this accomplishes is it gives us some more variables to play with to regulate timing. The height and volume of the 3rd bucket, height of the float valve/trigger, flow of air pump, and the flow rate of the orange pump.

Water still would need to be added to this system as it is used, but intuitively I think there would be a large margin of water volume that would keep the system operating properly so that solution could manually be added. There is also the overflow bucket which its height could be varied to serve as a signal as when to water again. ...or more float valves/switches could be added, but this already is complicated enough

Hopefully we can collectively figure out all the little details and finally simplify things without making them simpler than they actually are. I'll most likely be making some hand-watered PPKs in the near future instead of doing plain hempy buckets, but I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread regardless of what I do. Keep up the great work all you active, passive plant killers.