lucas formula

[spurr]

Spurr,
What are the GMB volumes per gallon to get the 3-1-4 ratio?

Edit. You posted before I got mine in. I thought you were using GH 3 part to get there.

Below is my General Hydroponics mix (using Pro-TeKt), you will find the volumes per gallon listed in the top row. In the spreadsheet below, I compared my mix to the PH/Lucas mix in terms of ppm profile, ratios of elements and relativity of elements.

I posted my mix for base salt compounds for Delta, sorry if I made it confusing!

Please note, that when using a three part mix like GH, one cannot get exactly N|P|K of 3|1|4. I came as close as I was able ...

• my mix has N|P|K of 2.59|1|3.55
• PH/Lucas mix has a N|P|K of 1.22|1|1.72

 

[Snow Crash]

***Edit: Note: I was typing this as Spurr posted. These comments are not directed towards him or the subsequent conversation.

The sad thing is that you guys know some things about nutrients, but not enough to avoid confusion. Labeled percentages are not NPK.

They are N, P2O5, and K20. P2O5 is only 44% Phosphorus. K2O is only 83% Potassium.

If 3-1-4 is the final ratio you want for NPK Then you have to remember to calculate the PK numbers so that you get the same labeled percentages you will find on a bottle. For a 3-1-4 distribution of NPK the bottle would have a lable of 3-2-5 because only 44% of that "2" is actually phosphorus, which actually makes it <1.

There is a HUGE amount of confusion when it comes to labeled ratios versus calculated ratios because the heads here that have figured this stuff out for you guys did not feel it would be necessary to address that MFG labels are not completely accurate. If you did run a 3-1-4, as listed on the label, then you'd need 19ml per gallon to hit the 150ppm mark on the Nitrogen you guys are talking about. Except in this case the elemental concentration of Phosphorus would only be 22ppm, while Potassium would only be 165ppm. A 3-2-5 labeled concentration will give much closer ppm numbers to what has been listed as ideal numbers for the elements N, P, and K.

It is unfortunate that simple confusion is allow the perpetuation of this ratio as the ideal label to look for, when it simply is not the case. It is also egregious that Calcium and Magnesium are completely overlooked in these formulations. Calcium is required at nearly the same level as Nitrogen, and you may find yourself using more Magnesium then Phosphorus at times. To simply not even worry about these absolutely vital elements in this ratio only further demonstrate a lack of complete understanding when it comes to suggesting a nutrient ratio. They are called "Micro Nutrients" but don't let that fool you into thinking they are any less important or in a lower volume as the traditional "Macro Nutrients."

Something I'd like to point out is that CNS17 from Botanicare is a one part nutrient which sells for $20 to $25 per gallon or $90 to $100 for 5 gallons. CNS17 Grow Coco/Soil is a 3-2-4 nutrient and is extremely undervalued as a nutrient in these KISS communities. It also contains plenty of Calcium (although a little extra mag during flowering wouldn't hurt).

If you guys are all so hyped on keeping shit easy then why the hell are you buying and mixing two nutrients when you could be getting the same results out of just one. And at $0.0053 per ml on the 5 gallon... This system barely costs $0.10 per gallon to get the levels you guys want. For a grower like myself who uses 5 gallons of solution per day at the peak, this system costs me about $30 on a 90 day with a 1lbs minimum harvest. Not that it is the absolutely cheapest system on the market (Thanks Jack's Professional) but it sure is damn close.

Add in a little Cal-Mag Plus for some control over N, Ca, and Mg, and maybe a choice Potassium supplement in case you have a finicky strain that likes a little extra K, and you're pretty much set. Personally... I find that having Phosphorus levels around 60ppm (about 20% more than 50ppm) has made a good impact in my grow room. I don't think anybody needs to push huge numbers of high PK bloom supplements, but just 2ml per gallon of Botanicare Hydroplex 0-10-6 has really helped out my harvest weights on some strains. I prefer to run CNS17 Coco/Soil as it is suggested, and find the 3-2-4 Grow, the 2-2-3 Bloom, and the 1-5-4 Ripe to all be useful in my garden.

As 1-part systems go... CNS17 Coco/Soil has the right ratios and the right price. If you didn't know about the system it's because Hydro Stores HATE the stuff. They can't make any money selling you all that other bull crap. The dude at the store even told me "I can't make any money on the stuff so I don't carry it anymore." He didn't say it wasn't popular, or it didn't sell, just that the price point on it couldn't justify the shelf space. Know what the hydro store guy doesn't want you to. Know about CNS17.

 

[spurr]

The sad thing is that you guys know some things about nutrients, but not enough to avoid confusion. Labeled percentages are not NPK.

They are N, P2O5, and K20. P2O5 is only 44% Phosphorus. K2O is only 83% Potassium.

If 3-1-4 is the final ratio you want for NPK Then you have to remember to calculate the PK numbers so that you get the same labeled percentages you will find on a bottle.

Sorry to say, but it seems you're the one who is confused. The 3|1|4 value is not in regard to weight of N, P2O5 and K2O in the bottle. Please see what I wrote about how to find relativity of ppm, ex., 3|1|4:

The 3-1-4 'ratio' (really it's a form of relativity) is what I and others (like tester, YosemiteSam, Analog, Avenger, etc.) have developed (together and separately) using cannabis tissue assays and tissue assays from other higher green C3 plants.

I have been testing and using 3-1-4 for a long time, and it works exceptionally well from veg to harvest for coco, peat, water culture, etc. The low (yet sufficient) P is a key factor, esp. for veg and pre-flowering, as is the increased N. At this time, my mixes are the only ones using ~3-1-4, that I am aware of; I know YS likes to use lots of various relativity to see what he likes.

There are at least a dozen people testing my General Hydroponics mix meant to replace the PH/Lucas formula and Rez formula, as well as my formula(s) using base salt compounds. So far, at least a half a dozen people have tested my GH mix, and found it's far better than other mixes (from GH and otherwise) they have used before. I think that's because my mixes are based on science ...

In terms of K-Ca-Mg, I have found (as have others) that 3-2-1 works very well.

FWIW, I would put my mixes against any commercial brand there is; and I would bet as much money as I have, that my mixes will beat the shit out of any commercial mix.

To find N-P-K (what I term N|P|K) and K-Ca-Mg (what I term K|Ca|Mg), the following math is used:

If:

• N = total ppm of ammonicial and nitrate
• P = total ppm of P
• K = total ppm of K
• L = represents element with lowest ppm

And:

• N = 150
• P = 50
• K =200
• L = 50

Then:

• N/L = 3
• P/L = 1
• K/L = 4

 

[spurr]

@ Snow Crash,

I just read your edit, after I posted the above: "***Edit: Note: I was typing this as Spurr posted. These comments are not directed towards him or the subsequent conversation."

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

Thanks spurr.
I was afraid I needed a bong hit as shit wasn't making sense in your conversation with delta9

 

[spurr]

NP

Oh yea, the mL per gallon of my General Hydroponics mix, in screenshot I posted, are the columns colored light blue. The white columns are so people can mess around with various mL per gallon, and calculate their final ppm profiles.

 

[Snow Crash]

@ Snow Crash,

I just read your edit, after I posted the above: "***Edit: Note: I was typing this as Spurr posted. These comments are not directed towards him or the subsequent conversation."

Yeah, I figured you missed that. I posted, and there were like 4 new posts I hadn't read and it was like... Well shit... There's what I was talking about.

I think we're on the same page... just different paragraphs

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

Are you using straight boric acid or borax (sodium tetraborate) like in 20 mule team?
I use the borax in my spa for more stable water.

 

[spurr]

I'm using boric acid, it's better than using borax. Sol-u-bur is an option for B, which is also better than borax. You can get a small bottle of boric acid at any pharmacy, for like $5. And that's more than enough to last a long time.

 

[cyat]

sounds like ionic grow hardwater 3-1-5

 

[spurr]

Hey Cyat,

If that is the values on the bottle, then it's not the same thing. The values I and Delta posted, i.e., 3|1|4 is by elemental ppm profile.

 

[delta9nxs]

Hey buddy



I agree it's interesting, but Erik is wrong on a few points. And he appears to lack critical depth of understanding, at least his article lacked said depth. Ex., he makes claims as fact, which are not fact, such as:

"In the late flowering phase, when the plant is ripening, and in some instances producing elevated levels of essential oils, a slight “spike” in phosphorous levels will induce a level of stress that can help to enhance crop quality."

​

I would challenge him to prove those claims with legit scientific data, on cannabis. I'm not claiming he's wrong, but I am calming he can't make such a factual statement without references and proof, of which he provides none. IMO he is simply using hearsay and the logical fallacy "argument from common belief", etc.

Also, the following claim is totally wrong. The last thing a grower wants to do is spike P before the stretch in per-flowering is over. That is, unless the grower wants longer internodal lengths and a plant that stretches quite a bit more than when using lower P. Also, the claim that bloom boosters, a'la Big Bud (et al.) "have other components in the formulation that help to control vertical growth" is hogwash; unless Erik would be so kind as to state the "components" to which he is referring in a very unsubstantiated manner:

"For the first week of flowering to help trigger the natural plant stresses that amplify the plant’s flowering process, it’s okay to give the crop a dose of bloom boosters that have higher P to K ratios in the NPK values stated on the label. Usually, these types of bloom boosters that are formulated for indoor crops at the onset of flowering will also have other components in the formulation that help to control vertical growth; stacking internodes and flowering sites tighter together for each foot of vertical growth to give maximum yields."

​

Besides those points, a few others, I agree with the thrust of Erick's article.

i think good ole eric is covering his ass a little bit here so he doesn't appear to be shooting down vendors products. after all, who pays for maximum yield?

 

[Snow Crash]

This is what you get for asking a question about Gallons to Liters on ICMag...

sounds like ionic grow hardwater 3-1-5

Hey Cyat,

If that is the values on the bottle, then it's not the same thing. The values I and Delta posted, i.e., 3|1|4 is by elemental ppm profile.

I told you! Confusion in the masses!
Just so we are clear here...

The goal is to have One part Phosphorus, Three parts Nitrogen, and Four parts Potassium.

Labels do not list the exact values of the elements

"N"
Nitrogen at 100% (although there is discussion to be about about the sources).

"P"
Phosphorus is labeled as P2O5, which is only 44% elemental Phosphorus.

"K"
Potassium is labeled as K2O which is only 83% elemental Potassium.

To get a 3|1|4 ratio from a one-part nutrient you need to calculate what the number will be for P2O5 and for K2O to get that number.

If 3|1|4 is the ideal elemental ratio then...

3 - 2.27 - 4.82 is the ideal label
​

I would also suggest at least 2 parts Calcium and 1 part magnesium, more or less depending on time of life and system. Plants in coco for certain, and some particular phenotypes, would benefit another 1 part Calcium for Veg and .5 parts magnesium for flowering in addition to the first bit.

The last thing to consider is that what is labeled is not what is in the bottle. Period. They don't have to list every ingredient, and the percentages listed are only what is guaranteed in the mix. In many cases there is a little extra in the system which is unlabeled that you simply cannot know about. Having a nutrient system that isn't this ratio doesn't make it a bad system. There are all kind of factors that come into growing cannabis, and given the variation across phenotypes, methods, kinds of environment enrichment and control, that will all impact the "perfect" ratio.

Notable 1-part systems for comparison:

Pure Blend Pro Bloom 2.5 - 2 - 5 (low on Nitrogen)
CNS 17 Hydro Grow 3 - 2 - 4 (low on Potassium)
or Bloom 2 - 2 - 5 (Low on Nitrogen)
Ionic Bloom 3 - 2 - 6 (High on Potassium)
FloraNova Grow 7 - 4 - 10 (High on Nitrogen)

If the Ionic Bloom has enough Cal-Mag and trace in it then that'd be pretty good stuff I think.

This took me a while to type up because I'm high and distracted. If someone already said the same thing then

 

[delta9nxs]

No, but I have made something better IMO (see below), using Peter's Hydro-Sol, Calcinit, etc. I'm testing the following mix starting this month, the ppm values are well proven in lots of my previous testing. There are about 6 other people that will be testing my ppm values, including thefatman.

Direct addition to 100 liters in reservoir (no stock solutions):
(not shown below is boric acid at 0.095 grams)

​

Stock solutions, per gallon for mix A, B and C (not direct addition to reservoir); used at 10 mL per liter, for A, B and C:
(not shown below is boric acid at 0.361 grams into mix B)


Here is a thread worth checking out, my posts with respect to this post start on page 9 or so. In my posts I provide many links to great lit on these topics, as well as my mixes, info on how to properly mix fertigation water (ex., add ferts to 1/2 volume of total water, then add other 1/2 volume of water), etc.:

DIY Nutrients formulations, recipes, chemistry etc.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=199034
​

Here ya go, esp. see the last two pages. A buddy of mine will be doing at least 100 assays in the coming month/s. And my next grow I will be sending in petiole samples once a week for assay.

Hemp (Cannabis sativa L) tissue nutrient analysis data
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=181405
​

thank you, this includes the AN ones i was going to post so i'm off the hook for that one. heh! heh!

i really want to see those weekly samples and your buddy's also.

i read the earlier parts of carl's thread before you appeared and noticed shroom's remark about seedlings displaying sex in veg.

i just started 6 new strains and they all displayed in veg. females first.

little did i suspect that when i stopped here to answer a simple question all this would develop.

learning has become an addiction. pretty cool!

 

[spurr]

To get a 3|1|4 ratio from a one-part nutrient you need to calculate what the number will be for P2O5 and for K2O to get that number.

If 3|1|4 is the ideal elemental ratio then...

3 - 2.27 - 4.82 is the ideal label
​

Are you sure? That doesn't seem correct to me. What I wrote, re 3|1|4, is by elemental profile of the fertigation water, not the bottle (i.e., stock solution). The label lists % by weight to weight of bottle (or w/v), not by ppm (even though one can find ppm from %). Unless I misunderstand what you are suggesting.

I would also suggest at least 2 parts Calcium and 1 part magnesium, more or less depending on time of life and system. Plants in coco for certain, and some particular phenotypes, would benefit another 1 part Calcium for Veg and .5 parts magnesium for flowering in addition to the first bit.

I agree. I like to use K|Ca|Mg of 3|2|1. However, the old myth that there is ideal Ca:Mg of 3, is bunk. I know that's not what you are suggesting, but it's something I often read in cannabis forums so I thought I'd throw it out there.

 

[cyat]

gotcha

 

[Ninjaaa]

Hi, if I got this right, using GH euro version nuts, to get proper npk ratio of 3-1-4 by mixing this way, + proper ratio of Ca & Mg.

 

[petemoss]

.....
the jack's works right out of the box if you pre treat the coco with a 2000 ppm pour through before transplant. i used 600-750 ppm after that in coco.

Hey d9, good to see you up and about after your recent surgery. Hope all is back to normal for you. Do you really rinse your coco with 2000 ppm nute solution? That (4.0 EC) seems too strong to me. I always rinse the coco with a half-strength nute solution with a teaspoon of Cal-Mag added. That seems enough to "load the matrix" and the plants always take off with healthy growth.

 

[guineatrippin]

I'm a bit confused as always. Do you guys use the same solution for the whole grow cycle (but flushing of course)?

What I've used this far with just GH Flora 3-set, liquid silicone and some ph- :

Grow/Micro/Bloom

Clones, very early flower: 2.5ml/2.5ml/2.5ml per 10l
Veg: 4ml/4ml/4ml to 6ml/6ml/6ml per 10l
Early flowering: 0/5ml/10ml per 10l
week into flower: 0/8ml/16ml per 10l
a few weeks into flower 0/10ml/20ml per 10l
almost mid flower: 0/12ml/24ml per 10l
mid flower: 0/5ml/30ml per 10l
late flower: 0/0/30ml per 10l
very late flower: 0/0/20ml per 10l
Flush

Also I use the liquid silicone the whole cycle about 2-10ml / 10l depending on my mood, lol.

There isn't really any formula, or it's a bit modified from lucas. But I can't really imagine just using one solution for the whole cycle. Does it work or am I missing something.

The harvest I've got has been really good, but I guess it could be better.

Some pictures:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/pivitin8320114.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/f/638/harvest003a.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/190/paivitystavahan.jpg/


Also, if you would recommed something better for my setup I'd really appreciate it!

 

[petemoss]

wow, those plants look great, guineatrippin! Doesn't look like you need to make any changes to your tent grow. I see you are using the Lucas ratio of twice the amount of Bloom as Micro and phasing out the micro at mid-flower. The only suggestion I could make is to air-cool your hood to cut down the heat, although I can't see any heat stress or foxtailing from excess temps. How do you keep it cool with that bare bulb in the tent?