PH question for ebb and flow(from newb)
- Thread starter skinzilla
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I believe this is what is refered to as "Drift". Your PH and PPM will change often. Keep them in line/tune. Watch your gurls,in hydro good and bad shows up quickly ime. Also when ever you think you are gettin an odd readin recalibrate you meters>>
good luck
ur420pal
good luck
ur420pal
What did your EC do during all this?
Freezerboy, my PPM goes up slightly after each flooding. I assumed this would be because the girls are using a little more water than nutes. It seems I'm having to add PH down 2 or 3 times a day to stay around 5.8, and I just wasn't sure if it's normal to have to adjust your PH so often. I am flooding every 2 hours if that has anything to do with it(only once when lights are out).
Having to adjust multiple times daily ain't good. If for no other reason than it's a pain and prevents vacations.
In a DWC, EC and pH move in opposite directions and the quick adjustment is to feed in direction of pH movement. However both your EC and pH are rising ...d'oh!
It may be that aeration is causing the pH drift as aeration drives CO2 out and CO2 exists in the water as carbonic acid (less acid, higher pH) The E&F involves a waterfall of sorts (waterfalls being the most effective aeration method) Are you also using an air pump/stone? Are you using RO? RO is far less pH stable than tap.
In a DWC, EC and pH move in opposite directions and the quick adjustment is to feed in direction of pH movement. However both your EC and pH are rising ...d'oh!
It may be that aeration is causing the pH drift as aeration drives CO2 out and CO2 exists in the water as carbonic acid (less acid, higher pH) The E&F involves a waterfall of sorts (waterfalls being the most effective aeration method) Are you also using an air pump/stone? Are you using RO? RO is far less pH stable than tap.
I have 2 air pumps(4 stones in my 150 Litre reservoir which is covered with plexiglass). Do you mean exposure to air can cause PH drift? Should I cover the areas of my table that don't currently have plants? I'm waiting on my clones to be ready/come to life, so I'm only using about half the table right now, the rest is just covered in hydroton. I've seen some people cover their table with the white/black reflective plastic, would that help?
I feel the need to say this isn't my method. We need to get you a real live E&F grower.
As a non-E&F'er, allow me to blather on... E&F doesn't require the same level of aeration in the water as DWC because, in E&F water is not the oxygen delivery media, thats what the ebb is for. Maybe replacing the air pump with a re-circulating water pump or put the air pump on an intermittent timer, say 15-30 minutes before flood.
I've heard some E&Fers speak to keeping the res light fast to control pH drift.
.... now, I'm drawin' blanks so, if nothing else...
BUMP
As a non-E&F'er, allow me to blather on... E&F doesn't require the same level of aeration in the water as DWC because, in E&F water is not the oxygen delivery media, thats what the ebb is for. Maybe replacing the air pump with a re-circulating water pump or put the air pump on an intermittent timer, say 15-30 minutes before flood.
I've heard some E&Fers speak to keeping the res light fast to control pH drift.
.... now, I'm drawin' blanks so, if nothing else...
BUMP
Yeah, I rinsed the hydroton really good(mainly because I was worried about the dust plugging my pump). There's lots of hydroton in my table though, so maybe that's what's causing the rise in ph. The ph stays stable in my reservoir, so I can't see how the air stones would be the cause. It's more like exposure to either air or hydroton(during flood) is causing the rise. If it's the hydroton, will feeding and reservoir changes eventually fix the ph rise?
I'm thinking it's the dust/residue from the hydronton too. That shit can be brutal. Been running E&F for around 10/11 years and the only time I have ph issues is when the water level needs to be replaced and nutes added.
Do yourself a huge favor and forget those pellets. That dust is abrasive and will eat your pumps over time. I used to use rockwool cubes but moved on to 2 gallon smart pots filled with a mix of 75% coco and 25% chunky perlite. Seems the perlite gives the roots an unimpeded area to grow bigger. Won't use anything else anymore unless forced too.
I use 1 air stone per res. Always have. Just my preference. Have had no problem with them.
I also have at the moment 1 40 res with a pump continuously running to keep the nutes mixed and the other 40 gallon one does not. So far I see no benefits. As a matter of fact, the res with the extra pump running in it seems to get more nute fallout in it over the 2 weeks between changes. Years ago I did notice that the hydronton in waterfarms changed my ph on a regular basis. If the plants haven't been flushed in usually more than a month, and I don't think that's the case with your setup right now, that can start throwing ph off too due to the high salt buildup left in the medium over the month. Some nutes cause more buildup than others.
So,,,,,
Change the res at least every 2 weeks(I've gone longer without problems)
Flush at least every 4th week before doing a res nute change
Get away from those damn balls
Also, I find that with E&F tables, less nutrient is more. I use ro water, calmag, Floralicious Plus, a product named Pot O' Gold, and my base nutrient. I keep the ec around 1.2(that's about 840 ppm) and I have been getting my biggest harvest yet. Seems that's the sweet spot for me.
Good luck!
What nutrient line are you using?
Do yourself a huge favor and forget those pellets. That dust is abrasive and will eat your pumps over time. I used to use rockwool cubes but moved on to 2 gallon smart pots filled with a mix of 75% coco and 25% chunky perlite. Seems the perlite gives the roots an unimpeded area to grow bigger. Won't use anything else anymore unless forced too.
I use 1 air stone per res. Always have. Just my preference. Have had no problem with them.
I also have at the moment 1 40 res with a pump continuously running to keep the nutes mixed and the other 40 gallon one does not. So far I see no benefits. As a matter of fact, the res with the extra pump running in it seems to get more nute fallout in it over the 2 weeks between changes. Years ago I did notice that the hydronton in waterfarms changed my ph on a regular basis. If the plants haven't been flushed in usually more than a month, and I don't think that's the case with your setup right now, that can start throwing ph off too due to the high salt buildup left in the medium over the month. Some nutes cause more buildup than others.
So,,,,,
Change the res at least every 2 weeks(I've gone longer without problems)
Flush at least every 4th week before doing a res nute change
Get away from those damn balls
Also, I find that with E&F tables, less nutrient is more. I use ro water, calmag, Floralicious Plus, a product named Pot O' Gold, and my base nutrient. I keep the ec around 1.2(that's about 840 ppm) and I have been getting my biggest harvest yet. Seems that's the sweet spot for me.
Good luck!
What nutrient line are you using?
RR, using coco and perlite, doesn't it get out the bottom of your pots and into your drain/reservoir? If so, doesn't it cause pump problems? What about roots growing out your pots' drainage holes? How do you prevent light exposure to the roots? I figured coco or promix would be easier, but I wanted to avoid the mess(I'm sloppy) and any potential pump/drainage problems. Thanks for all the help folks.
While I think you can and should get the swing to slow down, might as well use it while it's there. No one pH reading allows absorption of all nutes so a flat reading of 5.8 (were you able to achieve flat readings) actually means unbalanced feeding. Given the speed of your shift, I'd start around 5.2. If nothing else it should allow for less adjusting during the day.
No coco gets out of these. You can take a look here-(it's a link to hydrofarms page showing the smart pots)
http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=10752
It shows you what a smart pot looks like or you can google-smart pot
That will get you to their home page. The roots are air pruned as soon as they grow through the fabric. Once in a while, and usually on the veg table, the roots will grow through the pots and get a bit longer. Simply break them off if you want and continue on.
Been using these pots for a couple of years or so and I love em.
" How do you prevent light exposure to the roots?"
Not a problem, the roots are contained in the black smart pot covered by coco. At the moment I have 4 foot monsters in 2 gallons of coco/perlite. They love em. No mess, no light exposure.
Look, like I posted earlier, I have been running the tables a long time. Even back when I ran the 6 inch rock wool cubes I never put anything else in the table. Have found that the "light exposure" to the base of the plant/the roots, is really not a problem. The canopy of the plant soon shades everything below anyway. So never a need for fillers. Seriously, the only thing sitting inside my table is the smart pots.
Also important to not over water the plants. here's what you do-
Turn your pump on and TIME how long it takes to get to either half way up the medium you are using, OR to the run off return drain back to the res, which ever comes first. THEN let the pump run 2 minutes longer.
Now add both times together and that gives you your flood time. It's easy to over water a e&f table. You end up with root rot when you do that. You have to find the balance between feed times.
To determine watering intervals, you need to check how long it takes for the medium to somewhat dry out. You don't want it to get too dry. But then again, you don't want to leave it too wet either.
Personally, with my setup, I have always watered like this-
1 hour before lights come on.
Every 4 hours after lights come on
1 hour after lights go out.-This keeps moisture in the plant druing the dark period. And usually last the plant until the 1 hour feeding before lights come on. AND-if this feeding is just a couple of hours after the last one while the lights were on, that's no problem either.
I always have this issue with new hydroton. No reason to stop using it.
It is going to keep jumping for a couple weeks. I sometimes drop it down to 4, and a few days later it is back at 6. But eventually it will stabilize. Your plants will be fine
And as far as the dust ruining your pumps, I do not agree. I have not grown for 11 years but have been growing for several years, with various ops ranging from 4kw to 35kw, all using hydroton. I have had pumps fail but can not say it was due to the dust. Actually my expensive pond master pumps failed, but my cheaper eco-plus pumps have been very reliable
It is going to keep jumping for a couple weeks. I sometimes drop it down to 4, and a few days later it is back at 6. But eventually it will stabilize. Your plants will be fine
And as far as the dust ruining your pumps, I do not agree. I have not grown for 11 years but have been growing for several years, with various ops ranging from 4kw to 35kw, all using hydroton. I have had pumps fail but can not say it was due to the dust. Actually my expensive pond master pumps failed, but my cheaper eco-plus pumps have been very reliable
RR, does a 2 gallon smart pot give you enough room for a good sized root system? I'm going to try finish this grow with the hydroton, but if it gives me PH problems throughout, I'll switch to the smartpots and coco. I'm hoping that Marshall's right. It's almost been 2 weeks since I last added any hydroton, so hopefully the PH drift slows down/stops over the next week.
While I have 2 experienced table growers(Marshall and R.Ryder), any advice on good potent SOG strains that are relatively easy to grow? I'm doing Lifesaver by BOG seeds now, and I'm expecting some Golden Skunk clones soon, but more suggestions never hurt.
While I have 2 experienced table growers(Marshall and R.Ryder), any advice on good potent SOG strains that are relatively easy to grow? I'm doing Lifesaver by BOG seeds now, and I'm expecting some Golden Skunk clones soon, but more suggestions never hurt.
"but my cheaper eco-plus pumps have been very reliable"
I agree with that. They are a good pump. ActiveAqua makes a good one too.
My point was that the rock/expanded clay pellets, dust is abrasive. Abrasives on moving parts isn't a good thing. Is it? Not being a smart ass by any means about it tho. Nothing more than a respectful difference of opinion.
Here's a pic of some plants grown in the 2 gallon pots-These 3 plants produces 20oz 22 grams. I don't see a problem with that
Also meant to add that you need to cover the res with something dark. Personally I do not like light getting to my nute solution other than when it floods the table. Just my preference. Light exposure allows algae and other thing to grow while the water is sitting there.
