Calling all RDWC & Undercurrent Pros

[Shafto]

If your tote is "static" and you don't recirculate at all, then you'll definitely have to use an air stone to stir it up so it all comes into contact with the nute solution surface in the tote.

Or, if you put a water pump in the bottom, and had it recirculate just within itself, pump nute solution up from the bottom and through the hydroton back into the solution, then you wouldn't have to use any air, and your roots would be happier without the turbulence and vibrations caused by the air.

I know you disagree with me, but I'm sure you haven't actually tried this to compare the results either. I have, and I can say for sure that the water pump method is better, not only for oxygenation, but because it takes away the turbulence and vibration.

The nute solution spreading out over the hydroton gives a huge surface area for fresh air to recharge it with oxygen using atmospheric pressure. The surface area of the nute solution in the tote is far less than the surface area of the hydroton, you just can't match that kind of oxygenation.... Any chemist will tell you, more surface area = more reaction.

 

[thefalsediviner]

Cool as man,Thanks for the explination bro.

no problem at all

can you tell us more on the parameters on using H2o2 with bene's?

Actually I started and have stayed close to pH's application ratio's on his cannastats page. This is a good article on h202 and should give you more info.

Have you evidence to back this up bro?

Only whats going on in my grow room, the reasoning behind my stratagy, and the rediculous weed I'm smoking. Here are some 1.3 megapixel nug shots from my 10 y/o nikon.

White Widow x Big Bud, White Widow, KC-36, Hippy Crippler, AK-48

I could start posting cola shots as the current run develops if you like. I have the current run under a scrog so the roots will have to wait until harvest to be famous for 15sec..

What made you go this route?

I started putting all this together when my wife got diagnosed with a second malignant melinoma. I had already been researching hydroponics for several years and growing with hydro for the last two years. That and the resulting cancer and dietary research got me to where I'm at now with my stratagy. Frankly we as a family and gardeners have all bennifited from this info. I would encourage everyone here to self educate on raw foods in general. My organic permaculter food farm neighbors use kefir whey like EM-1 in their animal and agriculture opperations. Their whey is from the grains I gave them so I have a big broad spectrum of nothing but results from this magical stuff.

Ive never heard of kiefer whey, so ill have to look into that stuff.

Here you go bro.
http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#composition-of-KG
This is a good read on EM-1
http://www.agriton.nl/higa.html

With the maxibloom, it was the cost & growers like Evilme that got me interested in it in, cant wait to give it a try, id prolly go with some Koolbloom too, your roots sound v-happy.

Oh shit I failed, thanks man, I use Koolbloom powder weeks 3-6 of flower at the recomended dose. Then I flush with the AACT, h2o2, and water for the finish. I'll jump back and correct that.

any pictures of your grows knocking about around here man?

My signature dude. I'll be posting pics here and linking to a couple of future tutorials I have planned. I think that this thread could be fun if a few DWC geeks started having a geek festival. I got some resent pics of my veg cabinet after a major mum collection bonsi prune/root prune.

Clockwise from upper left Hippy Crippler Mum, White Widow Mum, KC-36 Mum, White Widow x Big Bud Mum


Clockwise from upper left Hippy Crippler Cutting, Cheese Quake Mum, AK-48 Mum, KC-36 Cutting


Clockwise from upper left AK-48, White Widow x Big Bud, White Widow, Hippy Crippler all cuttings


An AK-48 and KC-36



Two itty bitty Cheese Quake cuttings in my Bubbler/Fogger Hybrid Flux Capacitor Clone-O-Matic Thingy


peace,
tfd

 

[thefalsediviner]

Six days later.....



and a White Widow @ 12 days 12/12


peace
tfd

 

[MediRI88]

MediRI88 thats one hell of a nice Rig you got there, v neat!k

G'Luck!

thanks,yea you gotta be neat and as clean as you can its a med so if it dirty or has buggs its no good .. but thansk i have other threads iv always run coco and love it said i would never switch in til i seen what RDWC can do its crazy so i Run both just for the heck of it more trim more hash I keep the water cold 65-68 keeps the slim away and they grow crazy healty ... for clonning and early veg warmer temp thru 80-85 are better

so let anybody else got setup pics i wana see how other people have there system set up

 

[MediRI88]

All so if you run RDWC OR ANY TYPE OF HYDRO YOU NEED SOME TYPE OF PPM METER<PH METER<

just becous you have air stone in each bucket doesnt mean shit if your running 5 gallon or bigger you need a big air pumpp ! A big lol you really need to make its bubble on top with splashing.,,, dont forget roots need 02 buds need c02 too get huge yeilds are in 10-16 oz off one plant ..

 

[Scrogerman]

If your tote is "static" and you don't recirculate at all, then you'll definitely have to use an air stone to stir it up so it all comes into contact with the nute solution surface in the tote.

Or, if you put a water pump in the bottom, and had it recirculate just within itself, pump nute solution up from the bottom and through the hydroton back into the solution, then you wouldn't have to use any air, and your roots would be happier without the turbulence and vibrations caused by the air.

I know you disagree with me, but I'm sure you haven't actually tried this to compare the results either. I have, and I can say for sure that the water pump method is better, not only for oxygenation, but because it takes away the turbulence and vibration.

The nute solution spreading out over the hydroton gives a huge surface area for fresh air to recharge it with oxygen using atmospheric pressure. The surface area of the nute solution in the tote is far less than the surface area of the hydroton, you just can't match that kind of oxygenation.... Any chemist will tell you, more surface area = more reaction.

Thats exactly it, i need the air pumped through solution/roots, it circulates itself tbh, i have thought about adding a powerhead for circulation like i said, but they come with their own pro's & cons. My 70Lpm compressor pump, 6 x 12" airstones, in my 70L res work fine. 4 plants in my tote, theres alot of rootmass, so as you can imagine, you'd have to get a lot of flow in there to achieve what your saying, which would be going down the RDWC or UC route, which i aint got the space for. even then id be adding airpumps.

As for pushing solution down through the hydroton, yeah great, but thats more like a waterfarm anyway, very similar of course. my 4" nets get splashed & stay plenty moist in high O2 environment, why would i wanna run more solution through it? i wouldnt man.

All i can say to you man, is try running a static tote yourself, the way your talking about, i personally wouldnt be confident getting any results, well i just wouldnt do it, 4x 4" nets aint got much suface area, & it aint as much as my 70L tote. Different with Waterfarms & DWC using large nets.
I could pick holes all day but i appreciate what your saying anyway.

G'Luck man!

 

[Shafto]

All i can say to you man, is try running a static tote yourself, the way your talking about, i personally wouldnt be confident getting any results, well i just wouldnt do it, 4x 4" nets aint got much suface area, & it aint as much as my 70L tote. Different with Waterfarms & DWC using large nets.
I could pick holes all day but i appreciate what your saying anyway.

G'Luck man!

I have tried, that's why I'm offering this information.

Bubbles mixing your solution don't work as well to oxygenate it as pumping the whole solution over the hydroton every 2-3 minutes. The hydroton is very porous and has in insane amount of surface area, which the water spreads out on nice and thin as it runs down, allowing it all to be recharged with oxygen. It works very well, much better than an air pump just mixing up your solution.

The hydroton in your 4" net pots definitely has way more surface area than your 70L tote, even just 1 4" net pot full of hydroton will have more surface area. You would of course be better off though, to ditch the net pots and find a rubbermade tub to use as your 1 giant net pot, drill holes in the bottom and put all of the plants in the single hydroton bed. The more hydroton you can fit, the better.

Whatever you wanna call it, UC, waterfarm, doesn't matter, it's still all RDWC, and you don't need any more room to circulate a tote within itself with a water pump, the only difference is that it works better than air, it's quiet, your water temps stay lower, your plants take up more nutes and you end up with bigger, better buds.

If you wanna see for yourself, just try it, like I did. I know you still won't believe me, but at least this info will help others make they're own decision. I'm not lying to you to try and ruin your next grow.

 

[desertsquirrel]

Being a tester for undercurrent i have been doing side by sides and testing many aspects of RDWC. In my testing i have found the whole DO mentality to be flawed.

Plants have no problem extracting oxygen directly from water, they split the H2O molecule during photosynthesis. This being said, they do need FREE o2 for the process of osmosis, where by roots uptake any solution at all.

Bubbles in direct contact with the rhizosphere is what we shoot for in our systems.

 

[spadedNfaded]

Ive been running DWC for a year or so and am considering a new 6(2gal) or 9(1gal) buckets for a small RDWC 400w.

Ive just begun the research a week ago so im a good month or so away from buying anything.

just a couple things in my experience with hydro is that covering your black buckets with white poly will greatly reduce the amount of radiant heat your buckets pick up. Ive seen a very notable difference in res temp now. I would even go as far as sanding down individual buckets and applying one or two coats of white paint on everything. Lid and bucket.

As far as rooting to DWC, i use 4" net pots with hydroton. Root either in a bubble cloner till the roots are 5" or so or put in the DIY Walmart cloner using vermiculite. I leave the cuts in there until they are well rooted, usually about two weeks. Pull them gently out of the cloner and wash away as much vermiculite as i can - ive found using a cup of water and dunking the roots in will remove almost all of it. Then pop the roots thru the net cup and fill with hydroton. I fill up a 1gal pot to approx 3/4 gal, that's JUST under the net cup and let the roots dangle.

I have a question for any RDWC peeps out there. What is the average height that a "drain" hole is drilled into a bucket? What is the water/bucket ratio you're looking to maintain in each individual site? Im considering using 1gal or 2gal buckets. Thanks!

- SubN

 

[cyat]

Ive been running DWC for a year or so and am considering a new 6(2gal) or 9(1gal) buckets for a small RDWC 400w.

Ive just begun the research a week ago so im a good month or so away from buying anything.

just a couple things in my experience with hydro is that covering your black buckets with white poly will greatly reduce the amount of radiant heat your buckets pick up. Ive seen a very notable difference in res temp now. I would even go as far as sanding down individual buckets and applying one or two coats of white paint on everything. Lid and bucket.

As far as rooting to DWC, i use 4" net pots with hydroton. Root either in a bubble cloner till the roots are 5" or so or put in the DIY Walmart cloner using vermiculite. I leave the cuts in there until they are well rooted, usually about two weeks. Pull them gently out of the cloner and wash away as much vermiculite as i can - ive found using a cup of water and dunking the roots in will remove almost all of it. Then pop the roots thru the net cup and fill with hydroton. I fill up a 1gal pot to approx 3/4 gal, that's JUST under the net cup and let the roots dangle.

I have a question for any RDWC peeps out there. What is the average height that a "drain" hole is drilled into a bucket? What is the water/bucket ratio you're looking to maintain in each individual site? Im considering using 1gal or 2gal buckets. Thanks!

- SubN

S&F,
bottom of return is level with your bottom bucket or an inch or 2 max above, I like it level, or put the return at the bottom and control the water level with 2 res's and a float valve.

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

i run a homemade RDWC alla B1 and hate cord roots. i just scrapped my whole grow cause the cord root got too long before i hooked up the auto top off and once i did it rotted out at the base of the cord root and ruined 24 buckets....


if i would have had this top feed over the hydroton this problem would have never occured. So this round i want to add a top feed.... heath just lets his 1/2 feed line flow over his net pot full of hydroton. im scared of stem rot though... i was thinking of doing a dripper ring and having it turn on 3 times a day for like 10 /15 minutes.... can i just let it run 24/7 or should i just stick to the 3 times a day?

 

[Hydrosun]

Cord roots transmit O2 from the air to the plant is my thought. There is a balance of cord and fine roots that is needed.

Imagine if you will a 10" net pot on a foam float so it always had the water level just 1" down the net pot (the inch of foam board), with no air gap and only fine roots.

Results were always death by drowning whenever the veg plants got too big or right at flip.

Balance is the answer my friends.

 

[budshoteyes]

I believe Heath's root pots were full of cord roots till they hit water level which was above the root pots bottoms hence only feeder roots were seen in his root pics. I believe that the cord roots he disdained were the huge ones that would form upon hitting air zones between the root pot bottom and the water level if spaced apart!

I was there when Heath started his thread but never thought to ask to see a root pic plus stem out of his pots....I was and still am so totally in awe of his grows!

A few 5 gallon rwdc growers have told me they lower water level as the grow progresses,that it pushes the plants to grow and feed better and faster. Makes me think of the low level krusty buckets.

In September I hope to be running a micro pore aerator in my Rez....though using airstones at the moment I'm still not sold on the water fall method yet!

 

[Hydrosun]

Well put. The sexiest photos of huge trees is the root mass with the media removed! Very seldom seen

 

[cyat]

I checked and its mostly rope roots in the hydroton

 

[Scrogerman]

I have tried, that's why I'm offering this information.

Bubbles mixing your solution don't work as well to oxygenate it as pumping the whole solution over the hydroton every 2-3 minutes. The hydroton is very porous and has in insane amount of surface area, which the water spreads out on nice and thin as it runs down, allowing it all to be recharged with oxygen. It works very well, much better than an air pump just mixing up your solution.

The hydroton in your 4" net pots definitely has way more surface area than your 70L tote, even just 1 4" net pot full of hydroton will have more surface area. You would of course be better off though, to ditch the net pots and find a rubbermade tub to use as your 1 giant net pot, drill holes in the bottom and put all of the plants in the single hydroton bed. The more hydroton you can fit, the better.

Whatever you wanna call it, UC, waterfarm, doesn't matter, it's still all RDWC, and you don't need any more room to circulate a tote within itself with a water pump, the only difference is that it works better than air, it's quiet, your water temps stay lower, your plants take up more nutes and you end up with bigger, better buds.

If you wanna see for yourself, just try it, like I did. I know you still won't believe me, but at least this info will help others make they're own decision. I'm not lying to you to try and ruin your next grow.

Your right i cant agree on all points your trying to make, although i do agree with some of course. The bubbles,splashing,fizzing action breaking water surface tension & constantly spraying my rootball, along with the cappilary action of the hydroton keep my rootzone in a perfect High o2 environment, more akin to Aero if you like. I pump 70LPM (litre per minute) through 70L of res, so if you can imagine it rages like a white water rapid bro, roots & plants are always happy in there aerobic solution. The Bubbles Churn the fk outta solution, so it works very well. On the other hand if i used a 10LPM pump in the same rig, by the time i came to mid-bloom, id be in trouble with DO, roots would impeade the surface & bubbling action & this would promote low O2 conditions, not what were after, why i use a large pump for one tote.

Your running RDWC like a waterfarm(top feed), they are related like you said, so it all works. Different strokes for different folks. I would like to compare DO levels in our rootzones/Res's, shame the DO meters aint cheap. & id like to do a side by side, Waterfarm Vs Tote DWC(1 plant each) 4" nets Vs 10" etc etc, i doubt there'd be alot in it with results, but be interesting to see(esp in the same time frame).

Consistantly hit 1.1-1.4gpw(without fail), so i find it hard to change. I do wanna give Coco a whirl though.

Anyway G'Luck man!

 

[Cameltoejoe]

Re: Calling all RDWC & Undercurrent Pros

Being a tester for undercurrent i have been doing side by sides and testing many aspects of RDWC. In my testing i have found the whole DO mentality to be flawed.

Plants have no problem extracting oxygen directly from water, they split the H2O molecule during photosynthesis. This being said, they do need FREE o2 for the process of osmosis, where by roots uptake any solution at all.

Bubbles in direct contact with the rhizosphere is what we shoot for in our systems.

What methods did you test with and what data did you collect.. just curious.

 

[budshoteyes]

Desertsquirrel

Did you test with an aerator?
To me it would be the best of two systems;RDWC and Ebb and Flow;motion to mix DO into the water plus bubbles so small their invisible and attach themselves to roots to give free air to them!....similar to the effect of soil.

 

[Scrogerman]

...

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

I believe Heath's root pots were full of cord roots till they hit water level which was above the root pots bottoms hence only feeder roots were seen in his root pics. I believe that the cord roots he disdained were the huge ones that would form upon hitting air zones between the root pot bottom and the water level if spaced apart!

I was there when Heath started his thread but never thought to ask to see a root pic plus stem out of his pots....I was and still am so totally in awe of his grows!

A few 5 gallon rwdc growers have told me they lower water level as the grow progresses,that it pushes the plants to grow and feed better and faster. Makes me think of the low level krusty buckets.

In September I hope to be running a micro pore aerator in my Rez....though using airstones at the moment I'm still not sold on the water fall method yet!

nah heath top feeds directly to not get cord roots.. he says he hates them and prefers not to get them.. thats the whole reason he top feeds over the hydroton....