Chem. vs. Organic ferts discussion

[greenmatter]

i grow both organic soil and hydro. IMHO comparing one to the other is impossible. your average smoker can not tell which is which most of the time (yes i have asked many of the people who burn what i grow). there are lots of ways to grow a plant folks and there is lots to learn about this game from the guys who don't do it your way. you can hate on any nute line or style of growing but when you see pics of a good grow what is the problem with giving credit where credit is due. for example, i personally don't like GH products but it is hard for me to say the stuff is trash when you see what some people can do with GH products. there are no silver bullets in grow methods but there are plenty of kick ass grows on this site using every method and nute plan conceivable. the fact that it is not what i do is no reason to give anybody a ration of shit. we are all here trying to get to the next level, does telling the other guy he is a fool really help?


nice crop Strainhunter, never used those nutes but i would damn sure burn one with you!

 

[Strainhunter]

.....


nice crop Strainhunter, never used those nutes but i would damn sure burn one with you!

Thank you.

My goal is to achieve the best results the most economical way.
First that was because I had to, now because I can.

How everyone does it is their thing - to each their own.

I can imagine there are plenty growers growing a more economical way (than I do) achieving better results than I do.
I just wish someone would point me that direction somewhere on here rather than trying to rip it apart scientifically...

 

[mg75]

90% of what we believe about nutrients is hype.
you have start-up money? start an organic bottled nutrient company. you will probably be rich in a year or 2.

heard about the new trend? VEGANICS... cause organic is not good enough and we are taking it to another level.

this industry is so hungry for next big thing (this includes strains, equipment, and nutrients). this may be good as we are constantly improving, but it makes picking out the bullshit so much harder.

 

[Weird]

Just as a human body cannot tell where consumed sugar has come from whether it be cane sugar, corn sugar, fructose etc. there ARE artificial "Chemical" fertilizers where not the soil & neither the plant can tell where they came from - easy to see when you get sick and fat tho.

maybe true for plants? cant tell where the sugar has come from? like what store, haha?
if you are saying all these sugars are equal in the long run to the body, then you are really believing the propoganda. this is what high fructose corn syrup manufacturers want us to believe. like the commercials now calling it corn sugar and saying its all just sugar. I call bullshit on that. almost all the major organs are heavily taxed by hfcs, and it cannot be totally broken down. this is a big reason american kids are so fat, its in everything. cane sugar is not great for the body but hfcs is much fuckin worse. I dont fuck with it at all. Im not a doctor but have studied this a good bit. Dr. mercola talks alot about it. Agave nectar is also just as hard on the body and most people buy it as health product. Also hfcs comes from mostly genetically modified corn.
sorry for ranting , and maybe I misunderstood your point, but i have strong views about hfcs, and aspartame which is in all the gum now.

oh my body can tell right away, first my taste buds then the rest

interesting point about the source and the impact and the organisms inability to "know" until it has experienced and observed long term cause and effect

my body can tell, most especially my lungs

i think there is an art to growing flowers that are a perfect smoke and imho if you havnet mastered all phases of chem, transitional and organic gardening your comments are nothing but opinion

people who get into growing for the money will have a much harder time exploring the real potential of organics and the medicine itself because their passion is income not the most medicinal weeds around

 

[slojoe]

i can rember the peters 20 20 20 i used it in pro-mix and it worked fine, that was 25yrs. ago .i use bio-biz now, but who knowes i might give this a try again.. i am lazy too i guess it comes with age 59yrs. slojoe

 

[skyspider]

to me its like the difference between eating food ... and eating vitamin pills , both ways give us vitamins but the food way is a holistic approach ...
I never have worked out why people go for that hydro nonsense just for a weeks less veg time and a 5% yield increase ... all those pipes ... water ... bubbles ... nah just give me some good ol compost and a pot thanks
but at the end of the day both chemical and organic ferts contain the same things, I dont believe that chem ferts damage the environment any more than 'organic' .. I mean , most river pollution comes from 'organic' animal slurry ...and thats a fact

 

[redneck shogun]

Some people like fast food and others prefer homemade. Some like take-out, these people used bottled organics.

 

[heady blunts]

first off, let me state that i agree well flushed conventionally grown bud tastes good, and it gets me high, and i've definately smoked my fair share of it. also, i have mad respect for DB and the op strainhunter obviously has a gorgeous and healthy garden.

but i am a big advocate (and practitioner) of organic living soil horticulture.

my big organic epiphany came through vegetables. i grew up eating conventionally farmed fruits and veggies. i had lots of health problems as a kid. lots of allergies. got sick a lot. also everything was boring. tomatoes were borderline styrofoam. salad was just crunchy water. i took my vitamins in pill form.

then i moved to rural western mass and started eating local veggies grown on chemical-free farms. first off, YUM. it was like i had never tasted real food before. secondly, my allergies disappeared. i stopped getting sick. i wanted to cook, i wanted to garden, i wanted a real relationship with my food. after all, we are what we eat right?

fast forward 8 years and i live in central cali with a 12 month growing season. i've got a killer veggie plot at my community garden. lots of great farms in the area that pledge to chemical free and sustainable farming practices.

honestly i haven't been sick in years. organic veggies make you superhuman (or maybe it would be more accurate to say that conventional farming is destructive to living bodies, and that foods produced in harmony with the environment should be the norm).

so, why would i not treat my medicine in the same way? i want my herb to be the equivalent of a nutrient dense, full of flavor veggie -- not the styrofoam impostor from my childhood.

IMO, chem nutes have a big plus in that they're measurable. A well-managed feed flushes to near nothing in the mix. (This stuff is reusable too.) I've had post flush runoff readings as low as ~150ppm. Can't really do that with organics. I realize organic compounds aren't an issue as they're not readily absorb-able.

But isn't organic bacteria breaking-down these compounds right up to harvest? One can't measure the amount of organic compounds left over in the medium. So it's hard to tell whether the tank's outta gas or still partially full. IMO, the best taste is when plants run out of ferts of any kind and start to wean themselves of excess sugars.

i understand why this is such a persistent misconception. but it is inaccurate.

the biological process of the nutrient cycle between the plant and the soil in a living soil organic system is far more nuanced and complex than we could ever hope to replicate with pipettes and measuring cups and complicated nutrient schedules.

when you feed your plants soluble fertilizer, it bypasses the biology in the soil and is directly absorbed by the plant. any nutrition that cannot be immediately used is converted and stored in the plant tissue. kinda like how the human body converts unused carbs to fat.

"flushing" has become common practice because without aiding the plant in the removal of these built up stores of food before harvest, the product's quality will suffer.

a well functioning living soil organic system does not process surplus nutrients. organic nutrients are (mostly) insoluble. that means they are unavailable to the plant until the soil biology processes them. it's like giving a hungry kid from the city a live chicken -- he ain't biting.

the plant "orders up" the nutrients it wants on an as-needed basis. throughout its life cycle, the nutrient profile required by the plant changes constantly in relation to the needs of that period in its life.

as the plant approaches maturity, it's not asking for much food from the soil. in fact, many plants will begin a process of self-cannibalization at this point, using the chlorophyl for example from less important parts of the plant to supply the reproductive system (the flowers in our case) with some very clean burning fuel in its last days. this is the natural yellowing process we are familiar with.

 

[heady blunts]

-- oops double post! --

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

i understand why this is such a persistent misconception. but it is inaccurate.

the biological process of the nutrient cycle between the plant and the soil in a living soil organic system is far more nuanced and complex than we could ever hope to replicate with pipettes and measuring cups and complicated nutrient schedules.

when you feed your plants soluble fertilizer, it bypasses the biology in the soil and is directly absorbed by the plant. any nutrition that cannot be immediately used is converted and stored in the plant tissue. kinda like how the human body converts unused carbs to fat.

"flushing" has become common practice because without aiding the plant in the removal of these built up stores of food before harvest, the product's quality will suffer.

a well functioning living soil organic system does not process surplus nutrients. organic nutrients are (mostly) insoluble. that means they are unavailable to the plant until the soil biology processes them. it's like giving a hungry kid from the city a live chicken -- he ain't biting.

the plant "orders up" the nutrients it wants on an as-needed basis. throughout its life cycle, the nutrient profile required by the plant changes constantly in relation to the needs of that period in its life.

as the plant approaches maturity, it's not asking for much food from the soil. in fact, many plants will begin a process of self-cannibalization at this point, using the chlorophyl for example from less important parts of the plant to supply the reproductive system (the flowers in our case) with some very clean burning fuel in its last days. this is the natural yellowing process we are familiar with.

Interesting take. Chemical nutes revert the order-up process to a veritable straw? I'm not a botanist but GH never explained it quite that way. IMO, this doesn't happen the way you explained it.

If a grower wants to slam their grows with chemicals, they may have a flush problem. But tracking runoff EC is a good way to prevent over-ferting altogether.

I can remember when 10-10-10 was $2 a bag and would never rate my own tomatoes anything less than righteous. We get tomatoes from FL in the winter time and they're not worth buying. They're picked and processed green. Can't imagine anybody growing a vine-ripened tomato that tastes that bad.

Thanks for the organic explanation. Actually I'm pretty familiar with organics, I just choose to use chems. And I'm happy that you're preference is organics and it makes you feel healthier.

Chemical insecticides are a bit more dangerous. But I'm not to friendly toward organic methods that don't work. I don't spray red spiders on pot plants but I do use Malathion as directed on tomato plants.

 

[Strainhunter]

........

when you feed your plants soluble fertilizer, it bypasses the biology in the soil and is directly absorbed by the plant. any nutrition that cannot be immediately used is converted and stored in the plant tissue. kinda like how the human body converts unused carbs to fat.

"flushing" has become common practice because without aiding the plant in the removal of these built up stores of food before harvest, the product's quality will suffer.

a well functioning living soil organic system does not process surplus nutrients. organic nutrients are (mostly) insoluble. that means they are unavailable to the plant until the soil biology processes them. it's like giving a hungry kid from the city a live chicken -- he ain't biting.

the plant "orders up" the nutrients it wants on an as-needed basis. throughout its life cycle, the nutrient profile required by the plant changes constantly in relation to the needs of that period in its life.

as the plant approaches maturity, it's not asking for much food from the soil. in fact, many plants will begin a process of self-cannibalization at this point, using the chlorophyl for example from less important parts of the plant to supply the reproductive system (the flowers in our case) with some very clean burning fuel in its last days. this is the natural yellowing process we are familiar with.

I really like how you wrote the above, VERY nice!

 

[heady blunts]

But I'm not to friendly toward organic methods that don't work.

me neither!

i'm generally not too friendly towards any type of mediocrity, organic or otherwise

 

[flotationdevice]

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[flotationdevice]

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[heady blunts]

Just making sure I've got my head on straight...

When it comes to nutrition, plants and humans differ in that we have to take nutrition into our bodies before we can extract what we need. Plants extract and take in nutrients directly through the root system, without the internal processing of a digestive system.

When I eat shit, I feel like shit because my body has to figure out what to do with all the things it doesn't need. When I feed a plant shit, it feels great because it only takes in what it needs, nothing else.

I suppose the argument for conventional fertilizer would be that you are giving the plant exactly what it needs, no more no less. The argument for organic fertilizer would be that what the plant does not immediately need or use becomes a part of a supportive microcosm/foodweb. heady blunts' "live chicken" would go back to the hen house and lay eggs until slaughter, yes?

the plant's digestive system is the microbiology in the soil. only when using conventional fertilizer does the plant take in nutrients indiscriminately.

i would argue that conventional fertilizer is like force feeding and living soil is like having a professional nutritionist/chef.

to extend the metaphor -- conventional fertilizing is like taking a fistful of chicken and punching it down your throat.

meanwhile the living soil "chef" is cooking you a bomb chicken sandwich or whatever you're craving that day.

either way there's chicken in your belly. but i'd feel better eating the chicken dish i selected until i was full, rather than having pureed chicken forced through a feeding tube.

a hyperbolic analogy to be sure i'm just illustrating my point.

And how does photosynthesis fit into all of this? You guys are using organic lights right? just kidding....

no you called it exactly! no matter how organic your indoor soil is, if you're using tons of kilowatt hours of electricity to grow then you're not exactly being "all natural."

BUT we have to do the best we can with the situation we are given. i'm a renter, i have a tiny apartment with no land or yard or whatever. my only recourse is to grow in a very awkwardly shaped storage cabinet above my bedroom closet.

so i use a 400w light and it uses electricity that was probably made with fossil fuels. believe me i'd rather use the sun. but this is what i've got to work with.

so then given all that, am i gonna buy synthetic nutrients, supporting an agrochem industry that i strongly disagree with? would i employ a method i wouldn't use on the food i feed myself and my family to grow the medicine i depend on to survive?

no.

i try and make as complete an ecosystem inside my little cab as possible. i try to eliminate as much waste from the system as i can. i feed my plants things that don't need MDMS sheets. i trust in nature's undeniably ingenious system of interacting soil biology and plant life. i make the majority of my amendments by myself out of kitchen scraps and garden waste and foraged weeds, FOR FREE.

and then i just sit back and water, and my plants are healthy, and the herb is great, and i am happy

 

[Butte_Creek]

Heady blunts explained it very well. Right on. That explains why my plants yellow up even with amendments and organic matter present. The plant, when part of the nutrient cycle loop, in an organic system, orchestrates what it wants to happen, through the use of exudate releases from it's roots and so on. It chooses what and when to eat. Chemical ferts over ride/ignore the biota and nutrient cycle loop, in a sense force feed and build up in the plant tissue, which is where the flushing ideology came from.


Disco biscuit- "And last but not least, organic compounds break down into the same NPK, also known as... you guessed it, chemicals."

microbe man helped me out with a previous point you made, that I didn't feel completely confident to answer at the time.

Nutrients, in the form of salts, created in an organic system by microbes is in fact different than conventional salts produced for "chem" nutrients. Chemical fertilizer salts are usually derived from petroleum ,they are inorganic, as well as pollutants, over time residues build up and destroy biology in the soil. As well as these salts are often chelated with more pollutants. Salts being mineralized and produced in an organic system are derived from organic matter. Pretty simple.

Great read, from microbe man, should explain any differences between an organic system and conventional one that people might be unsure about.
http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Organic_Growing_Microbial_Perspective


strain hunter - no hard feelings. I assume you've decided to abort the idea of me plagiarizing from google. Unless you are still building your case..

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Just making sure I've got my head on straight...

When it comes to nutrition, plants and humans differ in that we have to take nutrition into our bodies before we can extract what we need. Plants extract and take in nutrients directly through the root system, without the internal processing of a digestive system.

When I eat shit, I feel like shit because my body has to figure out what to do with all the things it doesn't need. When I feed a plant shit, it feels great because it only takes in what it needs, nothing else.

I suppose the argument for conventional fertilizer would be that you are giving the plant exactly what it needs, no more no less. The argument for organic fertilizer would be that what the plant does not immediately need or use becomes a part of a supportive microcosm/foodweb. heady blunts' "live chicken" would go back to the hen house and lay eggs until slaughter, yes?

Anyone, any thoughts?

And how does photosynthesis fit into all of this? You guys are using organic lights right? just kidding....

Not really sure how you interpreted the referenced comment. It basically says that NPK isn't organic.

 

[Butte_Creek]

skyspider[/B];4551902]but at the end of the day both chemical and organic ferts contain the same things, I dont believe that chem ferts damage the environment any more than 'organic' .. I mean , most river pollution comes from 'organic' animal slurry ...and thats a fact

That is a common misconception.
Read my above post, and the link to microbe mans page.

Chem ferts and organic ferts do not provide the same thing, in a sense, chem nutes are most often derived from petroleum(or at least inorganic pollutants), as well as chelated often with more pollutants. organic fertilizer, should just be organic matter that is then consumed or produced into nutrients by the microbials.
Chem fertilizers destroy/inhibit biota for a few reasons: residues from the synthetics they were derived from stick around in soil, chem nutrients are immediately available(soluble ionic) which gives nothing for the biology to feed off, because the plant is being fed immediately it begins to stop releasing exudates and foods for the biology; biology begins to fade away.

I have to give microbe man credit for some of the unknowns I recently had about how chem directly effects biota, beyond the simple explanation often heard "chem kills microbes", but why?

I agree though about animal poo high in ammonium used irresponsibly can cause negative impacts to near by water sources.

 

[Strainhunter]

.....

strain hunter - no hard feelings. I assume you've decided to abort the idea of me plagiarizing from google. Unless you are still building your case..

I still am reading...but I did not start this thread in order to get in to a pissing contest with anyone here, that's all.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Disco biscuit- microbe man helped me out with a previous point you made, that I didn't feel completely confident to answer at the time.

Nutrients, in the form of salts, created in an organic system by microbes is in fact different than conventional salts produced for "chem" nutrients. Chemical fertilizer salts are usually derived from petroleum ,they are inorganic, as well as pollutants, over time residues build up and destroy biology in the soil. As well as these salts are often chelated with more pollutants. Salts being mineralized and produced in an organic system are derived from organic matter. Pretty simple.

Great read, from microbe man, should explain any differences between an organic system and conventional one that people might be unsure about.
http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Organic_Growing_Microbial_Perspective

Thanks for the additional info. I'm pretty covered in the basic applications, processes, pros and cons. That's why I tend to respect all the 'Organics = better' threads by reading and not posting.

This thread offers the opportunity to stick a feather in the chem cap w/o plucking it from the proverbial chicken.