The myth, of the high P myth?

[thefatman]

It's an American thing lol. They're having problems catching up with the rest of the planet but will definitely get there (tongue in cheek but in part true). Give them some credit - it was only a few years ago that the be all and end all to anything was mag sulfate. The only other place I've seen outside of the US that is big on soil is New Zealand. Coco is huge in Australia and NZ. I think in Australias case this is largely due to the crazy summer temps and coco offers somewhat better root zone security.

I don't know about the catching up with the rest of the world concept. I know even in states where mj is decriminalized in small amounts it is not decriminalized in large amounts. Most states allow only a small number of plants and a ridiculously small amount of dry pot. Over the limited amounts quickly puts you in the felony category. Where I am only one ounce of dry mj is allowed and grows must be less then 25 plants regardless of the plants age or size. i.e. seedlings/clones count the same as large plants.

In America a major reason for not using soil type growing is for reasons of stealth. Constantly buying and discarding soil type mediums draws to much attention. For reasons of stealth most American grows are done indoors so climate is only a small factor.

Sadly there is also the fact that mj is still illegal by the Federal government and they do not recognize the individual states rights to legalize or decriminalize mj. Growing mj is a federal felony regardless of the number of plants.

Hoagland, Jensen and Cooper were all American researchers and were pioneers in hydroponic nutrient development. Of course this was done with research grants provide by the federal government. The feds do not give money to researcher for any form of studies related to mj growing. All mj growing developments in the USA are from clandestine growers. They typically are not mj forum patrons.

 

[YosemiteSam]

thefatman...could you comment on your use of N quite a bit higher than K in veg and almost equal in bloom?

That varies quite a bit from conventional wisdom.

 

[thefatman]

thefatman...could you comment on your use of N quite a bit higher than K in veg and almost equal in bloom?

That varies quite a bit from conventional wisdom.

It is simply based upon an average of 12 different mj tissue samples.

Six were taken just before the lighting flip and 6 taken upon harvest without using a flush cycle.

Can I say why the tissue slides produced the results they did? No.

Three different nutrient formulations were used for both veg and bloom. All formulations were close approximations of nutrients formulated by widely used mj nutrient manufacturers. The grows were inert, non absorbent media drain to waste hydroponic.

I am using them for air atomized aero.

 

[desertsquirrel]

can you post those samples please?

 

[Carboy]

I am using them for air atomized aero.

This might be more appropriate for Growroom Designs & Equipment section, but I'll ask it here anyway.

Would you describe what your system physically uses? Pumps, nozzles, containers, PSI, spray on/off time and the like.
Thanks for posting the requested formulas that you use and the reasoning.

CB

 

[YosemiteSam]

thefatman...I may be confused about something...hopefully you can help. When you list your ppm...take for example your bloom N at 400 ppm...is that what you are actually running or do you dilute that?

 

[thefatman]

thefatman...I may be confused about something...hopefully you can help. When you list your ppm...take for example your bloom N at 400 ppm...is that what you are actually running or do you dilute that?

I use what most standard hydroponic growers consider very low ppm nutrient solutions. Depending on the strain I run 250 (veg state for well rooted clones) to 550 ppm 650 ppm max (Bloom) on mixed nutrients. I have never bothered to calculate just what I supply of each nutrient after dilution.

I find aero high pressure whether by pumped pressure or by air atomization use no more then that usually and I just end up wasting nutrients if I use more than that. The plants very definitely would not tolerate full strength nutrients as formulated. The full strength diluted 1 to 100 would produce nutrients at around 1650 ppm (EC 2.37).


This is based upon nutrients formulated using ammonium nitrate and calcium nitrate and no magnesium nitrate.

 

[ShroomDr]

For someone who is allegedly an expert, your use of 'ppm' is baffling to me...
-


FWIW I picked up a bottle of HydroDeuce (0-0-22). Its potassium sulfate. I'll report back in 7-9 weeks.

 

[thefatman]

Wow, is there an expert around. I definitely must assume your not talking about me, but just in case.

(2.37 * 500) = 1650 ppm therefore 650 / 500 = 1.26 EC etc., etc. This is all simple math based upon an EC meter reading using a meter with a 0.50 conversion coefficient. Meter conversion coefficients vary from 0.50, 0.65 or 0.70 depending on the manufacture and the meters country of origin/manufacture. Just as EC meters do not really tell you a true ppm or a TDS they merely give you a best guess scientific estimate.

I do not bother to calculate ppm of each nutrient for something like say 10 ml in one gallon of diluted nutrients based upon a 100X concentrate fertilizer with a stated guaranteed analysis of such and such of nitrogen. It's just more unnecessary calculating that is just based upon the weights of fertilizers used in a concentrated nutrient formulation. While some people think it is all important to have the ppm calculations you use, a vast majority of growers in the US just do not bother with the calculations you make/use. I do not buy manuactured nutrients mixes so your method of listing ppm's and comparing one manufacturers product to another seems not all that beneficial to me.

 

[thefatman]

This might be more appropriate for Growroom Designs & Equipment section, but I'll ask it here anyway.

Would you describe what your system physically uses? Pumps, nozzles, containers, PSI, spray on/off time and the like.
Thanks for posting the requested formulas that you use and the reasoning.

CB

This weekend when I have time I will type up a more complete answer to your inquiry.

A simple description is I use an air atomized system using Delevan SN waste oil nozzles (I use several sizes)and an oil less compressor. I us most of the nozzles gravity fed instead of siphon. There is a small electric solenoid valve on each nozzle nutrient feed inlet and several larger electrical solenoids to control the air feeding the air inlets. The chambers which are under the plants are 36 inches deep and 1 square foot of space is allowed per plant. I use two nozzles per 4 square foot chamber. One is all I really need per chamber but I like redundancy in case one nozzle clogs. I list spray cycles based as dependent upon nozzle size. I run drain to waste in all phases of growth except the clone rooting stage where I recirculate and therefore use siphon feed for the nozzles. I do not user foggers in conjunction with the sprayers and I spray the same nutrients day and night even though I could spray just pH balanced water at night. I use Omron brand timers.

 

[Carboy]

This weekend when I have time I will type up a more complete answer to your inquiry.

A simple description is I use an air atomized system using Delevan waste oil nozzles (I use several sizes)and an oil less compressor. The nozzles are gravity fed instead of siphon. There is a small electric solenoid valve on each nozzle nutrient feed inlet and several larger electrical solenoids. The chambers which are under the plants are 36 inches deep and 1 square foot of space is allowed per plant. I use two nozzles per 4 square foot chamber. One is all I need really per chamber but I like redundancy in case one nozzle clogs. I usually list spray cycles based as dependent upon nozzle size. I run drain to waste in all phases of growth except the clone rooting stage where I recirculate and therefore use siphon feed for the nozzles. I do not user foggers in conjunction with the sprayers and I spray the same nutrients day and night even though I could spray just pH balanced water at night. I use Omron brand timers.

Look forward to learning new ways. Appreciate your time and effort.
CB

 

[YosemiteSam]

Wow, is there an expert around. I definitely must assume your not talking about me, but just in case.

(2.37 * 500) = 1650 ppm therefore 650 / 500 = 1.26 EC etc., etc. This is all simple math based upon an EC meter reading using a meter with a 0.50 conversion coefficient. Meter conversion coefficients vary from 0.50, 0.65 or 0.70 depending on the manufacture and the meters country of origin/manufacture. Just as EC meters do not really tell you a true ppm or a TDS they merely give you a best guess scientific estimate.

I do not bother to calculate ppm of each nutrient for something like say 10 ml in one gallon of diluted nutrients based upon a 100X concentrate fertilizer with a stated guaranteed analysis of such and such of nitrogen. It's just more unnecessary calculating that is just based upon the weights of fertilizers used in a concentrated nutrient formulation. While some people think it is all important to have the ppm calculations you use, a vast majority of growers in the US just do not bother with the calculations you make/use. I do not buy manuactured nutrients mixes so your method of listing ppm's and comparing one manufacturers product to another seems not all that beneficial to me.

When you break it down to the ppms for every element in your fertigation water it just makes it easy to compare exactly what you are feeding your plants vs what I feed mine vs what Shroom Dr feeds his.

When you list your ppm at some diltution from your stock soln it tells us what ratios you are using (and I admit that is the most important thing) but not exactly how much you are feeding.

 

[Marquis de Sod]

wow, long read.
what i, a person with NO INTEREST at all in mixing up my own ferts, and a great deal of interest in just going out and buying WHATEVER it is you scientists come up with, have come up with is basically go out and buy some PBP bloom and either CalMag+ or PK 13/14 and have a nice day. thank you very VERY MUCH!!!! (shooting myself in the head).
The only question left unanswered is the first one, P or K??! FOR REAL?

so we can do the above or go try out the Humbolt 0-0-22 Deuce deuce with our PBP bloom. Yippie. did i over simplify this?
ps. i threw some dandilions in my compost tea and it must not have hurt anything.

i will no doubt check back in another month or two and see what has transpired since page 49. i am using none of what anybody here has mentioned and my Nurse says my plants love life. but don't worry, i am going to stop and try the PBP bloom. i use the grow and like it too but didn't think it was much of an improvement over just alaska ferts fish poop 5-1-1. so Dont mind Me and Carry on. I would actually really like to know how this story ends up.
You have actually convinced me to toss out my hi P bloom foods tho, at least after the third week of bloom. sorry, i just bought it so plan to use it once per plant anyway. (a friend (and IC member) uses it ALL thru bloom and loves it. Plant Marvel's 5-50-17. I was planning on doing the same, but honestly i like what i have grown without it, so, in light of what has gone down on this thread, i think just using it once wont hurt anything, and it definitely helps him grow huge colas. What i want to know is how his plants can even stay alive, let alone thrive on this sheet. and he is in coir w/minor perlite. i am in dirt. i mean soil. and MG at that. yaah, its been stated this thread is not for soil growers, but... whatev


another PS, have you guys thought about the new Nutri+ line up's Bud Plus?? it has just what you doctors ordered: NPK numbers of 0-15-40. - a product JUST BEGGING TO BE TESTED IN THIS THREAD!!! (www.nutri-plus.ca)

 

[PetFlora]

Good to see fatmans' input once again! I am now on my 5th atomized aero (AA) grow (love that term).

Following fatman's advice/input could be difficult for anyone not using AA and D2W, which eliminates the variables that often make growing happy healthy plants through to harvest difficult (drip & RDWC was hell for me).

The secret to ultimate success is knowing what your roots are doing at all times. AA allows me to check on them without disturbing the plants. It took me awhile to learn to read them, but it's no different than reading your plants and knowing whether they look healthy or not.

Being pragmatic (the accum crowd would say stubborn) I do not use an accumulator or solenoids in my AA pod. Why? AA (combined with D2W) is on a whole different level than any other grow method in that...

1. It requires no media when growing clones and only a starter cube from seed. This allows me to monitor my roots, which is the life support system for plants. As they go, so does the plant. By monitoring them, I can optimize nute delivery (wet/dry cycles) and/or catch issues before their effects can harm my plants.

2. It precisely delivers small amounts of atomized misted nutes roughly every 2-3 minutes 24/7. When dialed in, the roots are never too wet and never too dry. This turns the plant into an virtual non-stop eating machine.

3. Due to 24/7 feeding only small amounts of highly diluted nutes are needed compared to other methods. One liter of nutes can last 5 or more grows for a small ~ 4-5 plant grower.

I sourced most of my hardware from Reptile Basics.

hth

and a question: I plan on switching from DM GOLD full line to DM ONE for both grow and flower, but during flower add DM Potash+. Will I need more N during flower?

 

[Marquis de Sod]

holy crap man, that shit is Rocket Science to me bro, you sure you're in the right thread???

i'm sorry my last post was rather flippant. i did learn very much from this thread. i ordered some of that calcium powder from the website somebody linked for use as a foliar spray, the one thing i dont do. okay, i dont use C02 either. . there is another unresolved question too,
the best surfactant. everybody seems to have bagged on everything except one thing i never heard of, so i am taking that to mean i might as well go use a couple drops of non antibiological dish soap.

also, seems to me that since i have so much ferts laying around i might as well skip my usual floranova bloom feed and mix up something that is 1:2 N:K and 1:2 P:K as well, gee that seems to me that then N and P must be the same. then i can use up whatevers laying around, currently the TechnaFlora line up.

Also want to add that i used my buds new Plant Marvel 5-50-17 just one time. i can't see any diff at all with my Indica, just like with any other bud booster hi in P. But i have to say that this one feeding i gave did kill every plant in a 6 inch pot that had this unknown strain of mostly sativa. burned up and dead at the recommended dosage of 1 tsp/gal. so other than the shock this is supposed to give the plant, i don't think i want to continue with it more than a one time feeding. i dont know how in hell Fox Farm's and others line ups can be so P heavy, and i dont understand how my buddy can do so well with it on his sativa dominant strains. but he is in coir and i am in, well for the most part, soil.

also i gave maybe too much credo to the PK 13/14. it seems that it just didnt hurt anything to me, and is an overdosage that is not damaging. i would really like somebody, maybe me, to try that nutri+ bud plus. or the 0-0-20 and get back here.


also there was no clarification really, to my mind, (what's left of it) of whether or not the hi P dose is going to kill the bacteria i need to have. it seems i would get ill effects on my indica plants as well if that were the case.

all my papaya indica is kicking ass and i dont really know wtf made it do that, but i do know i have been feeding it very low numbers or nutes per mandellas recommendation. the biobizz was 1-2-2 and then the floranova is like 4-7-8. the other crap i put in doesnt have anything over a 1 in it so.

basically what i said above is about where we are. 50 pages of great arguments (well, minus the pissing match), and then we still dont know crap. esp when you have people chime in that are using 0-50-0 (just kidding) and are growing big huge colas. as well as people using 0-0-50 doing the same (just kidding again) but almost the truth.

what i walk away with is that letter from the fert CEO is spot on: We Dont need 50 of P. and we need more K. i like the logic and the studies in support of the 1:2 P:K. everything seems to point right to it. then along comes Hammerhead swingin his Hammer Head, along with Skagit Magic (did not post here), and your right back to fucking square one. if you are a 'proof is in the pudding' kinda guy, you're really just standing here with me scratching your head. just mtc.


want to also add this in: Techna Flora. i kinda thought their ferts were pretty much made for weed, unlike lots of other peoples, but in wanting to mix and match and use up the crap i got, in order to get those 1:1:2 ratios, i see where the TF Boost (there version of GH's Micro) (is 3-0-2 and the Bloom is 1-4-7, add them together and you get, drumroll please: 4-4-9. unless my brain went numb during the reading of the 50 pages of this thread, that's almost exactly what Rocky Scientist ordered. my recollection is you want N half of K and P half of K like i said above. if i am wrong let me know. 50 pages is too much shtuff to look thru to try to find names and posts. The sad thing is, that i have used their whole line up on my plants and was NOT impressed. but back then i did not add Floralicious Plus, Budswel or a carbo booster either. so as usual i got no clue as to what is doing what, as well as how much switching my lite from horizontal to vert contributed. i would have to ASSume that alot of other people are doing the same thing, causing all this confusion and frustration!

ALSO!!! my calcium order from miracle tree growing was returned to paypal as they say they no longer accept internet orders. WTF????

 

[spurr]

It is simply based upon an average of 12 different mj tissue samples.

Six were taken just before the lighting flip and 6 taken upon harvest without using a flush cycle.

...

Veg,
MAJOR ELEMENTS, Three different sets of tissue samples: The first two are Indica and the third an Indica dominant. The samples were a mix of both bract and bud leaf tissue. Total THC: 22.9, 21.8 and 20.8
Total Nitrogen (N) 4.6%...........3.25.....4.2......4.4
Total Phosphorus (P) 1.5%.......0.35....0.50....0.65
Total Potassium (k) 3.6%.........2.55....3.75....3.00
SECONDARY ELEMENTS,
Total Magnesium (Mg) 1%........0.25....0.50....0.50
Total Calcium (Ca) 4.7%..........2.45....3.45....3.10
Total Sulphur (S) 4.2%............0.25....0.25....0.45

Flower,
MAJOR ELEMENTS,
Total Nitrogen (N) 1.2%...........3.75....4.25....3.60
Total Phosphorus (P) 1.3%.......0.75....0.90....0.75
Total Potassium (k) 2.6%.........4.1.....4.5......4.3
SECONDARY ELEMENTS,
Total Magnesium (Mg) 1%........0.40....0.50....0.50
Total Calcium (Ca) 3.8%..........1.40....1.30....1.25
Total Sulphur (S) 3.2%............0.30....0.35....0.35

Hello Fatman,

I hope you can clear something up for me about the tissue assays you had conducted. I'm working on a few fertilizer formulations for recirculating hydro (using starter and refill solutions for all manner of hydro, incl. your method), soilless and drain-to-waste too. The formulations are based upon cannabis tissue assays (for various stages of growth and THC production) as well as work by Hoagland and Snyder (link to .doc file) and Bugbee (link). I want to include your results in my work, and I have couple of questions, if you don't mind (the answers will help me better use your info).

I am going to use Hydrobuddy to list out the mixes I am creating, so it's easily shared with others via. the HydroBuddy database of formulations. I will e-mail Hydrobuddy author my formulas once complete and tested next grow.
​

1. Maybe I missed the information, however, how were the plants being grown when tested (media type, water culture, etc.), and what nutrient formation(s) were you using, and at what pH and EC?

2. How old were the plants when the tissue samples were taken?

3. At what time of 'day' were the samples taken? And how soon after irrigation (or fertigation) were the samples taken?

4. How were the samples prepared? Ex., did you wash them with Di water and then dry, before getting tested, or did the lab workers do so?

5. When you wrote "The samples were a mix of both bract and bud leaf tissue." (link), did you mean the mix used for flowering phase data? Otherwise, I do not see how the veg phase could have been a mix of "bud leaf tissue".

6. What parts of the plant were sampled? I know you wrote "The samples were a mix of both bract and bud leaf tissue." (link), however, I am unsure how you define "bract".

I know you wrote you used “veg” and “flower” tissue, so would I be safe to assume when using “bract”, you are referring to vegetative growth phase? Re: in the quote above, you wrote you tested "... just before the lighting flip ...".

Please see the following thread I just created on this issue, it should help better clarify my question about your use of “bract”.

“Inflorescence Anatomy: bract vs. calyx”
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=216413


​

P.S. Maybe if you respond in the thread about cannabis tissue culture it would easier for people to find, and more on topic.


Thanks

 

[spurr]

@ thefatman,

I just noticed something, and this may be a dumb question but I'll ask it anyway: what do those percentages represent (ex., fertzlier mix)? (in bold below)

Veg,
MAJOR ELEMENTS, Three different sets of tissue samples: The first two are Indica and the third an Indica dominant. The samples were a mix of both bract and bud leaf tissue. Total THC: 22.9, 21.8 and 20.8
Total Nitrogen (N) 4.6%...........3.25.....4.2... ...4.4
Total Phosphorus (P) 1.5%.......0.35....0.50....0.6 5
Total Potassium (k) 3.6%.........2.55....3.75....3 .00
SECONDARY ELEMENTS,
Total Magnesium (Mg) 1%........0.25....0.50....0.50
Total Calcium (Ca) 4.7%..........2.45....3.45.... 3.10
Total Sulphur (S) 4.2%............0.25....0.25.. ..0.45

Flower,
MAJOR ELEMENTS,
Total Nitrogen (N) 1.2%...........3.75....4.25... .3.60
Total Phosphorus (P) 1.3%.......0.75....0.90....0.7 5
Total Potassium (k) 2.6%.........4.1.....4.5...... 4.3
SECONDARY ELEMENTS,
Total Magnesium (Mg) 1%........0.40....0.50....0.50
Total Calcium (Ca) 3.8%..........1.40....1.30.... 1.25
Total Sulphur (S) 3.2%............0.30....0.35.. ..0.35

 

[thefatman]

The tissue samples and reference to bracts etc was written by Essex or someone else, not me. I expect he percentages listed are the equivalent of a manufacturers guaranteed analysis. The numbers following are the amount of each fertilizers salt in the tissue samples.

This is an old posting and while I agree with most of the ranges of data given here for the tissue samples I will have to say the calcium levels in veg are higher than I usually experience. At this time I would not use the fertilizer he used for growing aero HP or air atomized aero mainly as I would not use as much calcium in either veg or flower. I would definitely use more nitrogen in flower as well as more potassium. I used more phosphorus back then to prevent dwarfing the plants. However I have since found that in my set ups that the dwarfing was more the result of my spray times as I found I was better able to prevent the excessive dwarfing through adjustment in my spraying rather than going for an increase in height by shooting for more stretch just after the light flip. Growing with the excessive pompom type hair root formations throught out both veg and flowwr for me caused excessive dwarfing. The internodal spacing was very close and easily produced very tight buds but the yield was to small as the plants were just to dwarfed with such excessively close internodes.

I do not know what growing method he was using but the formulation he shows appear to me more like a commercial mj formulation such as one would normally use with a recirculating reservoir rather than dtw. I no longer use recirculating reservoirs regardless of the methods I use for growing. I do use recirculating reservoirs for rooting cuttings.

I no longer post to Roll it Up as I was banned for calling out one of their moderators one to many times. My lack of tact in my posts was also not appreciated. I am not known for possessing good social skills. I majored in engineering and minored in chemistry and mathematics not in the fine arts or sociology.

 

[YosemiteSam]

5 weeks

5 weeks



65 gallon pots flat rock.



mob boss...pretty crystalled up for 1/2 way.

40 P through the first 3 weeks of flower, 60 P after that.

K:N 1.5 through stretch, 1.75 after that
K:Ca:Mg 3:2:1 the entire way. i am straight up fuckin lovin this ratio.

 

[analogue]

I'll confirm those nutrient profile numbers YS , they work great.