Is This TMV?

[Crush]

This is one of the reasons I stopped growing with hydroponics.. these sorts of problems kept occurring much too often

Anyhow, the big thing is that your new leaf growth looks almost yellow, and the older leaves are nice and green. This suggests a mineral deficiency. A mineral deficiency suggests a PH problem.

Manganese (Mn)

Symptoms: Growth slows. Younger leaves turn pale yellow, often starting between veins. May develop dark or dead spots. Leaves, shoots and fruit diminished in size. Failure to bloom.

Sulfur (S)

Symptoms: New growth turns pale yellow, older growth stays green. Stunts growth.
Notes: More prevalent in dry weather.


What worked for me is lowering my PH to 5.2 and then letting it rise to 5.5.

The guy at my local hydro store says if the PH goes above 5.5, the plants will get burned. He was right. This is specific for my tap water in my city.

I eventually moved to organic and now soil and all my problems are solved. I water once a week with tap water and no longer have these issues. Try 1 clone in some soil just as a comparison and see if it can help you troubleshoot the problem.

Also, if the plant is too cold, dry, or stressed, they will grow slowly.

 

[CrzKat]

During this time frame of the plants not doing well have you added any new hose to your rooms or watering tanks? NGW hose will off gas and kill your plants. Whenever i see this scenario that is the first thing I ask becasue I have seen it more then once.

I keep TMV test strips in the fridge, they are cheap and quick to use. Never seen anything test positive. Agidia test strips I beleive they are called. Search my username and for post with TMV you will find the link and see examples.

good luck

I've read your posts before. I did replace the garden hose that i used between the tap and the tanks in my rooms after I started having a problem. I bought hose that was drinking water safe from an RV supply. The hoses to and from my reservoirs have been there for years.

To be honest, I'm not sure that the problem is specifically TMV, as there are several other viruses that will infect cannabis. I live on a farm and I grow lots of things. The ag community has seen an increase in viral problems as more and more commercial growers cut corners to supply cheap product to the big retailers. Bugs which are probably the main vector for viral transmission don't give a damn what they eat. So I don't see much utility in a test that's specific for TMV and a few closely related viruses. Doesn't matter to me whether it's TMV or Cucumber Mosaic Virus, or Tomato Spotted Wilt Virus. If I can't kill it with increasingly toxic biological agents and it's not a nute problem, then it's inside the plant where I can't kill it without killing the plant too.

I am testing my theory having gone to visit another friend this afternoon who is growing an outdoor crop of Blueberry that he started from seed in the spring. I cut a few branches there, brought them home (not where I grow), used new gel, new tools, new containers to clone them. They will not see the bloom room, or even the building it's in till they're ready to bud out. By that time I will have scrubbed and sterilized the room, lined the walls and floor with plastic and built tents to make 2 separate bloom zones.

 

[CrzKat]

Stress Test..... That's the normal course of events over 2 weeks. My well water is usually very slightly alkaline at about 7.1 - 7.3. Tests show it mineral content to be reasonable levels of calcium, manganese and trace levels of other minerals. I add acid to get it to 5.5 and add tap water as it is used or evaporates. Roughly a few gallons every other day. That causes the Ph to rise slightly. By the time I change out the res in 2 weeks it has usually around Ph 6.0 - 6.1. Nomally, I do not have to add additional acid till I change the res. If I see Ph fluctuations, I start to suspect bacteria contamination and act accordingly.

 

[CrzKat]

This is one of the reasons I stopped growing with hydroponics.. these sorts of problems kept occurring much too often

Anyhow, the big thing is that your new leaf growth looks almost yellow, and the older leaves are nice and green. This suggests a mineral deficiency. A mineral deficiency suggests a PH problem.

Manganese (Mn)

Symptoms: Growth slows. Younger leaves turn pale yellow, often starting between veins. May develop dark or dead spots. Leaves, shoots and fruit diminished in size. Failure to bloom.

Sulfur (S)

Symptoms: New growth turns pale yellow, older growth stays green. Stunts growth.
Notes: More prevalent in dry weather.


What worked for me is lowering my PH to 5.2 and then letting it rise to 5.5.

The guy at my local hydro store says if the PH goes above 5.5, the plants will get burned. He was right. This is specific for my tap water in my city.

I eventually moved to organic and now soil and all my problems are solved. I water once a week with tap water and no longer have these issues. Try 1 clone in some soil just as a comparison and see if it can help you troubleshoot the problem.

Also, if the plant is too cold, dry, or stressed, they will grow slowly.

The thought of switching to dirt has crossed my mind more than once in the past months.

The mineral deficiency appearance is obvious and was one of, if not the first thing I considered. It's definitely not the problem. That yellowish appearance starts to show up at the beginning of the 2nd week under 12/12. And I have to say again, this grow is the best looking grow since the problem started. I sterilized everything, every step of the way. I babied those plants. It was much worse before Physan20, rubber gloves and rubbing alcohol became standard fare.

Funny thing is.... these plants do appear to do better in soil. I got em from a guerrilla gardener and his outdoor sets are growing fine. I've grown some of the mothers outside and the leaves deform slightly and show some light/dark patterning but they tend to grow ok. If I take them inside to the pretty empty bloom room and put them on 12/12 I can get them to bud, but all the shade leaves get spotted and die off, plants are stunted and not real productive. Some of the buds get hard and dark, but others look and smoke just fine. Seems to vary with the strain too.

 

[Crush]

Well what happened to me is I spent a lot of time and effort building a flood drain table in my basement.

I grew lots of strains in thy same flood drain table. One of the things that was good is the plants never needed water.

But the main thing with hydro (I used GH Lucas formula), is the plants reacted so finicky to the nutes and PH. Some plants were 'nute hogs' that could take anything. But most were very picky.

People would say to keep trying to 'dial in' the plants but it was almost impossible. You really needed a good quality 'nute hog' clone that was known to work good in hydro. I think that was the real secret.

As soon as I grew with organic soil, finally I got good plants. But after a month they never got enough nutes.

Now, I'm just using cheap, water retentive soil mix and dolomite lime.. something you'd find at Wal-Mart as most 'home user' mainstream soils are meant to hold more water. The plants are doing really well. All strains. Just using tap water and cheap powder nutes that dissolve in water.

Anyhow, to troubleshoot your problem, just take one of the clones, put them in dirt (not from outside though.. you don't want ground dirt in your grow room), and then see how they grow. If there's a virus, it will spread to your other plant.

I'm not discouraging hydo at all.. but it's very similar to what happened to me and why I actually switched to soil.

When you look at the hydro grows, they are usually clone only that are nute hogs and 'meant for hydro'.

Soil is way way more forgiving and *WAY* less cost and maintenance than hydro. You don't want to find out the center of these problems is hydro just being hydro. That's what happened to me and eventually why I switched.

 

[CoCo_Crazy]

This is one of the reasons I stopped growing with hydroponics.. these sorts of problems kept occurring much too often

Anyhow, the big thing is that your new leaf growth looks almost yellow, and the older leaves are nice and green. This suggests a mineral deficiency. A mineral deficiency suggests a PH problem.

Manganese (Mn)

Symptoms: Growth slows. Younger leaves turn pale yellow, often starting between veins. May develop dark or dead spots. Leaves, shoots and fruit diminished in size. Failure to bloom.

Sulfur (S)

Symptoms: New growth turns pale yellow, older growth stays green. Stunts growth.
Notes: More prevalent in dry weather.


What worked for me is lowering my PH to 5.2 and then letting it rise to 5.5.

The guy at my local hydro store says if the PH goes above 5.5, the plants will get burned. He was right. This is specific for my tap water in my city.

I eventually moved to organic and now soil and all my problems are solved. I water once a week with tap water and no longer have these issues. Try 1 clone in some soil just as a comparison and see if it can help you troubleshoot the problem.

Also, if the plant is too cold, dry, or stressed, they will grow slowly.

Dude all your problems are not solved. Your plants dont look too healthy. Im not trying to be a dick its just i saw the plants today and really you have several problems still.

"People would say to keep trying to 'dial in' the plants but it was almost impossible. You really needed a good quality 'nute hog' clone that was known to work good in hydro. I think that was the real secret."

You had several different strains in one table? Then it will be difficult to "dial in" because you have different strains with different requirements and you are giving them the same strength. You dont need a "nute hog" you just need to give the strain the strength it wants.


"When you look at the hydro grows, they are usually clone only that are nute hogs and 'meant for hydro'. "

Dude this is very silly. You can have hydro with a low feeding strain you just have to dial it in ie give it exactly what it needs, a lesser strength mix.
I have like 11 strains in coco all started from seed. Some eat more than others so i will mix up stronger nutes for some and slightly weaker for others.
Your "its a clone only strain and is therefore 1000x easier to grow" theory is incorrect.

"You don't want to find out the center of these problems is hydro just being hydro. That's what happened to me and eventually why I switched."

There is no such thing as hydro being hydro, if you have problems then you have something to fix. It was your fault not hydros fault. You gave up and went to soil because you were unable to troubleshoot your problems. I dont think cannabis infirmary is the best place for you to be dispensing advice. Im not trying to be cruel this is just my opinion and i prefer to be honest.

 

[RubeGoldberg]

I do not see any indications of TMV in the pictures.

The pictures definitely show indications of deficiencies.

Some people will disagree with me but I have always deliberately fluctuated the Ph because some nutrients will uptake better in different Ph ranges.
I would suggest that you fluctuate the Ph more in bot directions.

I totally agree with this for hydro, I've seen people who are too anal about keeping their hydro at around 5.5 and then their plants miss out on nutrients out of that range.

I've found the best bet is to allow it to swing upwards into the low/mid 6's which takes about 2 days in a healthy system with a proportionate reservoir. And then bring it back to the original starting point.

 

[RubeGoldberg]

Dude all your problems are not solved. Your plants dont look too healthy. Im not trying to be a dick its just i saw the plants today and really you have several problems still.

"People would say to keep trying to 'dial in' the plants but it was almost impossible. You really needed a good quality 'nute hog' clone that was known to work good in hydro. I think that was the real secret."

You had several different strains in one table? Then it will be difficult to "dial in" because you have different strains with different requirements and you are giving them the same strength. You dont need a "nute hog" you just need to give the strain the strength it wants.


"When you look at the hydro grows, they are usually clone only that are nute hogs and 'meant for hydro'. "

Dude this is very silly. You can have hydro with a low feeding strain you just have to dial it in ie give it exactly what it needs, a lesser strength mix.
I have like 11 strains in coco all started from seed. Some eat more than others so i will mix up stronger nutes for some and slightly weaker for others.
Your "its a clone only strain and is therefore 1000x easier to grow" theory is incorrect.

"You don't want to find out the center of these problems is hydro just being hydro. That's what happened to me and eventually why I switched."

There is no such thing as hydro being hydro, if you have problems then you have something to fix. It was your fault not hydros fault. You gave up and went to soil because you were unable to troubleshoot your problems. I dont think cannabis infirmary is the best place for you to be dispensing advice. Im not trying to be cruel this is just my opinion and i prefer to be honest.

Agreed with you on that, guys like him along with fuckheads who love to look at leaf deficiency charts and then answer with some bullshit like "hmmmm that looks like an x deficiency" instead of trying to figure out why its being locked out.

at least this isn't rollitup or one of the hardened retard forums though

 

[CoCo_Crazy]

Yeah ive seen many "YOU HAF MAG DEF SO GIVE IT 100g OF CALMAG HERP DERP", meanwhile the poor guy has over nuted or something.

So is IC the best forum because i like it here generally. Cannabis.com was allright but often threads went unanswered, especially with plant problems.

 

[trichrider]

i remember seeing a thread where Sam the Skunkman related 'aspirin kills TMV'.
if you tried this already then it prob isn't TMV.
good luck.

 

[PuReKnOwLeDgE]

OP I would be checking all your hoses if you haven't already, I smell off gassing.

Crush- plants meant for hydro? Seriously? Either you can grow in hydro or you can't, the plant makes more difference. Putting them in dirt with unknown parameters is not a good way to test anything. Hydro really is very simple once you understand what your reservoir is telling you, to bad you scrapped the hydro. I grow in organic soil and hydro and nothing touches the rate of growth I get form RDWC.

I cannot think of one clone I have ever heard of that "works" well in hydro. A plant is a plant is a plant, either you can care for its needs or not. Sounds like you tryed a flood table with multiple strains, big no no, mono crops are the way to go. No disresepct Crush but your advice pretty much sucks every where I have seen it, you have alot more reading and experimenting to do before you should be giving tips.

 

[CoCo_Crazy]

OP I would be checking all your hoses if you haven't already, I smell off gassing.

Crush- plants meant for hydro? Seriously? Either you can grow in hydro or you can't, the plant makes more difference. Putting them in dirt with unknown parameters is not a good way to test anything. Hydro really is very simple once you understand what your reservoir is telling you, to bad you scrapped the hydro. I grow in organic soil and hydro and nothing touches the rate of growth I get form RDWC.

I cannot think of one clone I have ever heard of that "works" well in hydro. A plant is a plant is a plant, either you can care for its needs or not. Sounds like you tryed a flood table with multiple strains, big no no, mono crops are the way to go. No disresepct Crush but your advice pretty much sucks every where I have seen it, you have alot more reading and experimenting to do before you should be giving tips.

I understand that crush wants to help people but he should really help himself first. He really has so much to learn, this is not the point for him to be handing out advice. I think he needs to watch a shitpile of grow videos cause he has lost his way somewhere. But let me say one thing...AT LEAST HE ACTUALLY GROWS. Because there are a few fake growers on this forum. Guys who like to feel like a grower but dont have the guts to do it. So crash i think theres hope for you yet, you just got learn humility and realise you only just learning to grow, you are no master.

 

[CrzKat]

Hopefully, you guys are done beating up on Crush. I don'y know who's photos you were looking at CoCo mine or Crush's. In any case, the blooming plants look worse today than they did yesterday. I'll get some more photos later.

Meanwhile, I took all the clones in the grow room, transplanted them to pots and soil and stuck them out on my deck. Here's some photos of them. They are Jamaican Grape and Purple Train Wreck clones. As you can see they are kind of deformed, with curly cue leaves, patterning and necrotic spots. We'll see what happens.

As another experiment, I cut some clones from a different friends outdoor grow, which I started in another location last night. We'll see how they do in a different environment, away from contact with my other plants. But using the water from the same well and the same brand nutrient mixes.

PK.... i feel you on the hose issue, but as I explained they are the same hoses I've been using for years. This problem didn't start until I brought in new stock. Grew Blueberry and Ed's Superbud in this setup for years with no problems.

CoCo.... I never mixed strains in a grow until problems started. Then I mixed because I was just experimenting to see what would happen. Tried telling myself it was a nute or res issue and worked to correct it. No luck. It only got worse. I run 5 reservoirs, 4 in the bloom room for 8 trays and 1 in the grow room for a single tray....
https://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=31071

 

[CrzKat]

BTW.... regarding all the criticism of Crush..... I'm an old man, eligible for social security come my next birthday in October. I've been playing this game for a long, long time.... and I've seen a lot of sh*t over the years, heard even more. One thing I've learned is that there is no such thing, as an unbiased opinion. Another is that knowledge can be gleaned from every statement, even those made by fools. Be gentle with people who mean well...

 

[RubeGoldberg]

how are the roots looking on those?

 

[purple_man]

seems more like ph issue lockout of iron, calciium n magnesium + to much nitrogen...

no tmv (in my opinion)

blessss

 

[CrzKat]

Rube.... on the clones, the roots poking through the rockwool look fine. The newer roots are nice and white, while the roots that were through and exposed to air, were browning and dying off. I trimmed all the roots back to the rockwool, and planted the 4" cube in a good potting mix. If it's a nute or mineral problem, there should be a change.

PurpMan.... the transplant to new potting soil should cure any Ph, nute or mineral problem... so I'll keep an eye on soil PH and we'll see. Since this is a farm, and I have livestock, I have plenty of composted manure with which to brew tea to feed these gals.

 

[Stress_test]

i remember seeing a thread where Sam the Skunkman related 'aspirin kills TMV'.
if you tried this already then it prob isn't TMV.
good luck.

I use a pretty heavy Aspirin feeding regime, 1 325mg aspirin per gallon and I use it from the time clones develop roots.

My experience with TMV tells me that the OP's problem is NOT related.
There are several reasons that I get this feeling:
Typically TMV is a juvenile virus. It seldom shows it self in young seedlings or clones.
TMV begins effecting plants in the vegetative stage and usually suppress visual symptoms late if vegetative stage.
Also TMV almost always manifests in the older juvenile leaves, seldom are symptoms obviously visible in new undeveloped growth.

Aspirin will usually help young plants build an immunity to TMV before the plants reach the growth stage where TMV begins. But aspirin only works to help build immunity, it does nothing to actually kill the virus after it is established and symptoms begin to show.

However I am still confident that the OP is NOT combating TMV. It appears to me to be a deficiency, or several deficiencies.

Almost as if they plants just aren't getting quite enough food.
That suggests a few things: PPM is too low for hydro;
Ph is off and not varying quite enough;
Cal/Mag is out of whack;
Temps are too hot or cold for proper uptake...
Did I miss anything?

 

[CrzKat]

For whoever it was that was suggesting root aphids, I sacrificed on of my bloomers, pulled it apart and exposed the roots. I examined them with a 30X microscope, and didn't find any bugs.....

 

[CrzKat]

I use a pretty heavy Aspirin feeding regime, 1 325mg aspirin per gallon and I use it from the time clones develop roots.

My experience with TMV tells me that the OP's problem is NOT related.
There are several reasons that I get this feeling:
Typically TMV is a juvenile virus. It seldom shows it self in young seedlings or clones.
TMV begins effecting plants in the vegetative stage and usually suppress visual symptoms late if vegetative stage.
Also TMV almost always manifests in the older juvenile leaves, seldom are symptoms obviously visible in new undeveloped growth.


Aspirin will usually help young plants build an immunity to TMV before the plants reach the growth stage where TMV begins. But aspirin only works to help build immunity, it does nothing to actually kill the virus after it is established and symptoms begin to show.

However I am still confident that the OP is NOT combating TMV. It appears to me to be a deficiency, or several deficiencies.

Almost as if they plants just aren't getting quite enough food.
That suggests a few things: PPM is too low for hydro;
Ph is off and not varying quite enough;
Cal/Mag is out of whack;
Temps are too hot or cold for proper uptake...
Did I miss anything?

I hope you're right! But if Ca/Mag was the problem why did it wait for years to rear it's head. I hadn't changed my feeding regimen. I added Ca/Mag to the mix at the start of the problem, but it changed nothing... Ph is set at 5.5 on res changes, and rises over the two week interval to around 6.1 to 6.2. I normally only correct Ph at res changes....

Temps were up around 80 air/ 70 water when I was running CO2, but I cut that off and lowered temps to 72 air and 70 water after I started having problems.....Seems like the harder I pushed the girls the worse they did... The room is climate controlled, it stays where I set it, unless there's a power failure, which hasn't happened lately.

Problem usually doesn't appear until about 2 weeks after plants are moved to 12/12.

Anyway, everything that wasn't in bloom has been transferred to soil and moved outside. New clones from another source are being rooted and will be vegged out in entirely different space. We'll see what happens. If they do better in soil then I'll re-think the problem and look harder at the res. If the new clones do well on my regular hydro routine in a different space, I'll go back to thinking virus.