Compost question...

[spurr]

@ Microbeman,

I forgot to cite this reference, too. You will like it, I can send you the full PDF if you want to read it. It's about four composts and one manure; one compost is made using Actinobacteria (Streptomyces aureofaciens) and another using Trichoderma viride. The study and the effects of composts on endomycrrhoizal fungi (Glomus sp.) spores and root infection. As well as the disease fighting effect of inoculation of S.aureofaciens, AM fung and T.viride (separately):

"Field assessment of composts produced by highly effective cellulolytic microorganisms"
S.M.S. Badr EL-Din, M. Attia and S. A. Abo-Sedera
Biology and Fertility of Soils (2000), Volume 32, Number 1, 35-40, DOI: 10.1007/s003740000210

Abstract

In a newly cultivated sandy soil, sugar beet haulms composted by highly effective cellulose-decomposing microorganisms (Trichoderma viride NRC6 or Streptomyces aureofaciens NRC22) were evaluated as organic manure for tomato plants (Lycopersicon esculentum L. cv. Supermarmment). The treatments were as follows: (1) control with NPK, (2) farmyard manure (FYM), (3) uninoculated compost, (4) compost inoculated with Glomus sp. NRC212, (5) compost produced by T. viride NRC6, (6) compost produced by S. aureofaciens NRC22.

The organic amendments differed in their effects on total microbial counts in the rhizosphere of tomato plants.However, the amendment of soil with compost produced by highly effective cellulose-decomposing microorganisms or compost inoculated with arbuscular mycorrhizal (AM) fungi decreased the proliferation of the total bacteria in the rhizosphere of tomato plants compared with FYM or compost. The application of compost produced by T. viride NRC6 or S. aureofaciens NRC22 enriched the rhizosphere with fungi or Streptomyces more than the other manure treatments.

FYM and compost enhanced both spore production and the percentage of mycorrhizal root infection of tomato plants as compared with the NPK treatment, while compost produced by T. viride NRC6 or S. aureofaciens NRC22 reduced both the mycorrhizal spore numbers and the percentage of mycorrhizal root infection as compared with the NPK treatment. However, the application of FYM or compost reduced the incidence of root rot by 8% and 32%, respectively, as compared with the NPK treatment.

The use of T. viride NRC6 orS. aureofaciens NRC22 as cellulolytic microorganisms and AM fungi as inocula in the applied [non-inoculated] compost increased plant protection by 80%, 75%, and 73%, as compared with the NPK treatment, respectively. No significant differences in plant dry weight, N, P content and tomato yield were obtained between FYM and the mineral fertilizer treatment. However, different types of compost induced a significant increase in plant dry matter, N and P uptake and fruit yield relative to the FYM and mineral fertilizer treatments.

 

[spurr]

Are those compost covers made from the same type of fabric as the smart pots?

No, I do not think so. The brand I use, ComposTex, is out of Canada. The source I use in the US is "CV Compost", from Vermont. He will custom cut to order (within limits) and has great prices.

I know the compost sak is. Compared to my main compost heap, that is simply a pile on the ground, the sak composter heats quicker, and makes compost quicker. It does seem to dry out quicker though.

I'm wondering if I will get roots growing up into it, like my ground pile.....shredder

What do you mean "grow up into it"? The compost fleece is used to lay on top of the pile, mostly to block UV light, radiant heat from the sun, wind, and rain (it's not water tight but water repellant). The fleece helps hold in moisture during the thermophilic stage when steam can form, as well as retain moisture from blocking wind. The fleece also helps keep moisture content though the pile more uniform, vs. being dry on outside and much more moist on the inside of the pile.

For me, because I want my piles to peak at ~165-170'F, a compost fleece is critical to retain moisture during the hottest period. Otherwise much moisture is lost as steam and the pile biota suffer.

To use a compost fleece your pile or row, or whatever, needs to be sloped, so rain can flow downward and not puddle. Otherwise rain will soak through the fleece and can make the pile too moist.

 

[Scrappy4]

One of my compost heaps is in a wooded area next to my house. The pile has been there since 1998. Over that time it has raised the earth about four to six inches from roots growing under the pile, they mat up and I can't rake them out, so the pile keeps getting higher. I envisioned a mat under the pile, but then I was smoking magic envisioning herb, and not thinking well, I guess the water and nutrients would still wash through this mat.

That cover does look pretty cool though. Do you feel there worth the cost? Scrappy

 

[spurr]

I'm not concerned about the retained microbial content. I'm more interested in the nutrient/humus content. This compost will be a base for what I do this winter. A lot will get fed to worms. I'm running on 2 week cycles and will dry the compost in a garage on the floor over a weekend now. I have no place to store this outside. I'm happy with how things are going except...

Can you please 'catch me up' on what you are doing? Did you make compost and now you plan to store it by drying it out? If so, may I suggest instead that you simply bag up (with burlap bags) the compost leaving it as is (if moisture content is < 55-60%). Or you can turn it into silage, that is, you can ensil the compost (very similar to fermenting foodstuff with the Bokashi method).

I don't think you need to worry about finished compost 'going bad' (ex., Dr. Ingham's bad guy anaerobic microbes) if bagged in burlap sacks, up while holding sufficient moisture for microbes to thrive (ex., < 55% moisture content).

Drying compost isn't a bad idea, but it will affect/reduce some elemental (nutrient) content of the compost and affect humic substances. It's also time consuming, laborious and takes a lot of space (you'll need to get moisture content below ~30-35%).

Bagging up the compost, preferably in burlap sacks, is easiest. Ensiling is as easy as mixing up wheat bran and molasses, soaking with LAB serum (lactobacillus), then mixing it with your compost, and putting the compost in thick black leaf bags. However, consdering you'd be using compost, which is already rich in LAB (a major decomposer in thermophilic compost) and suffecint moisture, you could probaly just add a good amount of raw sugar cane (granules) to compost, mix and put in thick black leaf bags. If ensiling the compost, make sure to remove as much air from the bag as possible, and double bagging isn't a bad idea. I like to step on what I am ensiling, once it's in the bag, to compress it and remove as much air as possible. When you seal the bag I like to put it upside down, so the weight helps too the bag tightly closed.

Allowing microbes to continue the microbial loop and OM mineralization (ex. of soft rock phosphate), while in 'storage' in bags will increase the nutrient profile of the compost. That's better than drying it out, IMO.

...ran away on me a bit. After 24 hours it was warm then this morning high 130's and even when I covered it from the sun it took off. I mixed in more straw, pine bark fines for more browns and to reduce the moisture content.

I'm just having fun and learning.

That temp of 148'F is fine for beginning or end of thermophilic stage, but too low if you are at the peak thermophilc stage. In the thermophilic stage the temps should get up to (at least) 150'F. It's better to let temps get up (and over) 160'F, for a few days. IIRC, US law for compost pasteurization is at least 150'F for three days, turned a number of times over those three days.

• Mesophilic stage temps: 20-45'C (68-113'F) [1]
• Thermophilic stage temps: 50-70'C (122-158'F) [1]
• Hyperthermohiplic stage temps: 80-100'C (175-212'F) [2]

You should also consider composting by C:N ratio, not green to brown eye ball. Ex., using C:N for a cooler pile try 30:1 to 32:1 and for a warmer pile try 28:1 to 30:1; IMO less than 25:1 is too low for the best compost. The C ratio is also important and many people are unaware of it's importance, the ratio should be less than 100:1.

It's best to calculate nitrogen, carbon and phosphorous content on a wet weight basis, because water content effects the N content. If you're using a standard C:N ratio chart, it's by dry weight; so when calculating the true C:N ratio of your feedstocks, and your pile, you should include the moisture content of the feedstocks or the pile (depending if your finding C:N for each feedstock or the whole pile). All you need to do is calculate the moisture content, directions here; then following directions here for finding the C:N ratio using moisture content. Also, some nitrogen is more bio-available to microbes than other types, ex., fresh manure vs. alfalfa meal. It's best to use a mix of faster and slower bio-available sources of N, with a majority being slower bio-available.

It's also best to calculate carbon by it's relative bio-availability to microbes. This has to do with the amount of lignin and (some types of) cellulose, that comprise cell walls, along with hemicellulose. The short story is many microbes are not good at 'using' carbon in the from of lignocellulose, or as lignin, it's hard for them to break-down. That means 1 gram of carbon A (as 5% lignin, 50 cellulose and 45% hemicellulose) will provide more bio-available carbon than 1 gram of carbon B (as 20% lignin, 60% cellulose and 20% hemicellulose). Directions are here and info is here.

The reason the calculating C:N ratio by bio-availability of carbon and nitrogen is a worthy goal, is the 'true' C:N is often far from the calculated C:N.

To make life easy in terms of bio-availability of carbon, try to use carbon (brown) sources low in lignin and high in hemicellulose, such as dried leafs and dried lawn clippings, (some) kitchen waste, well shredded weathered/rotten wheat straw (it is made of type of cellulose harder for microbes to 'use', so weathered/rotten is best), etc. I also add some aged pine bark fines to increase air porosity of compost, as well as to decrease compaction; and as carbon source for late stage maturation. If one uses carbon feedstocks with low lignin, then calculating the percent of bio-available lignin from total carbon of feestocks is unnecessary.

Ha ha...just checked and up to 152 F in one spot. No manures/guano/etc. Some strong ammonia so guess I'm burning off some N...ooops. Can't wait for this round to be over so I can adjust the recipe again to slow things down a bit.

A temp is 152'F is good, see above. Try to let it reach at least ~160'F for a day or two, for the best compost in terms of humic fraction and humus score, as well as shorter time to maturation.

The ammonia smell is due to a few main factors, you may be able to change some of them to affect ammonia loss (i.e., reduce ammonia loss and increase compost nitrogen reclamation):

• feedstocks; the type of nitrogen rich feedstocks used for the pile affect loss as ammonia; ex. fresh manure vs. dried/aged manure.
• turning; the more often a pile is turned the more gaseous N (as ammonia) is lost.
• moisture content; once below ~40-45% ammonia loss increases because the ammonia is less diluted by water[1].
• pH; once it's above ~8.5 the ammonia loss increases quite a bit[2].
• gypsum; add it to the pile next time you turn it, or just mix it into the top of the pile if you're not going to turn it. The sulfate in gypsum will help trap ammonia so it is not lost. The Ca also helps increase humus score (see what I wrote in previous post), as well increasing flocculation of compost particles.
• aluminosilicate clay powder (ex., zeolite powder or pyrophyllite/Kaolin powder); add it to the pile next time you turn it, or just mix it into the top of the pile if you're not going to turn it. This increases CEC (cation exchange capacity) of compost which will 'trap' ammonia before it is lost. Increased CEC is a main goal of the addition of "clay-loam" to the Controlled Microbial Composting system. By adding these clay(s) we increase CEC much higher than is possible by using clay-loam.
• use a compost fleece; they are mandatory in some places in Europe, to reduce the loss of ammonia. Neighbors complained about the stink, so rules were put in place to force use of compost fleeces (aka compost blankets).

The C:N ratio isn't a big contributor to loss of N as ammonia, as long as it's above ~20. Bigger contributors are those listed above.

FWIW,

I like my piles to reach the low end of the hyperthermophilic rage, about 170'F (max 175'F), for at least a day or two during peak heating phase of thermophilic phase. This makes better compost in the end, and faster too. Please see what I wrote to MicrobeMan for more info, as well as these resources:


"Composting Cattle Dung Wastes by Using a Hyperthermophilic Pre-treatment Process: Characterization by Physicochemical and Molecular Biological Analysis"
Takeshi Yamada, Keisuke Miyauchi, Hideyo Ueda, Yasuichi Ueda, Hiroyuki Sugawara, Yukihiro Nakai, Ginro Endo
Journal of Bioscience and Bioengineering (2007), Volume 104, Issue 5, Pages 408-415, ISSN 1389-1723, DOI: 10.1263/jbb.104.408.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1389172307701810


"Successions of bacterial community in composting cow dung wastes with or without hyperthermophilic pre-treatment"
Takeshi Yamada, Atsushi Suzuki, Hideyo Ueda, Yasuichi Ueda, Keisuke Miyauchi and Ginro Endo
Applied Microbiology and Biotechnology (2008), Volume 81, Number 4, 771-781, DOI: 10.1007/s00253-008-1736-3
http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00253-008-1736-3


"Space Agriculture for Manned Space Exploration on Mars"
Masamichi Yamashita, Yoji Ishikawa, Makoto Nagatomo, Tairo Oshima,
Hidenori Wada
Space Agriculture Task Force
http://surc.isas.ac.jp/space_agriculture/Archive/PDF/SpaceAgri_JSTS.pdf

see section entitled: "Fertilizer produced by hyperthermophilic aerobic composting"
​

Chapter 18: "On-Site Resources Availability for Space Agriculture on Mars"
Masamichi Yamashita, Hirofumi Hashimoto, and Hidenori Wada
Space Agriculture Task Force
http://surc.isas.ac.jp/space_agriculture/Archive/PDF/SpaceAgri_JSTS.pdf

see section 18.6: "Compost Waste Safely and Quickly"


​

 

[spurr]

One of my compost heaps is in a wooded area next to my house. The pile has been there since 1998. Over that time it has raised the earth about four to six inches from roots growing under the pile, they mat up and I can't rake them out, so the pile keeps getting higher. I envisioned a mat under the pile, but then I was smoking magic envisioning herb, and not thinking well, I guess the water and nutrients would still wash through this mat.

That cover does look pretty cool though. Do you feel there worth the cost? Scrappy

They are quite inexpensive, much less than I think you are thinking. And yup, I think they are wroth the cost, a 1,000 times yes

 

[spurr]

@ CascadeFarmer,

Here is a good page about compost odor and how to control it, from Cornell U. (link). Also a good resource is .edu info about mushroom composting (Penn State runs probably the best site) because mushroom compost processes use lots of chicken manure and ammonium/phosphate fertilizer, and shoot for high NH4 levels, were as we shoot for high NO3 levels.

Gypsum is a must have for mushroom composting to reduce ammonia smell, and increase nitrogen reclamation, thanks to the sulfate in the gypsum, IIRC (it could be the Ca, but I think it's the sulfate).

 

[spurr]

@ all,

Below are my go to resources for compost info. The best and most correct and most technical is from Cornell University.

I have built up a very large list of N, P, C levels of many, many feedstocks and inputs, as well as created a spreadsheet to calculate all kinds of things with only moisture content provided by user. I may have complied the biggest list of feedstocks and their C, N and P levels, I have ever seen. I can post it here if it's needed.


Compost Fundamentals
Washing State U., Whatcom County Extension
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/fundamentals/index.htm


On-Farm Composting Methods
R.V. Misra, R.N. Roy and H. Hiraoka
(full text HTML) http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/y5104e/y5104e00.htm#Contents
(full text PDF) ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/006/y5104e/y5104e00.pdf

In: "Land and Water Discussion Paper 2"
Natural Resources Management and Environment Department
Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, Rome, 2003
ISSN 1729-0554​

On-Farm Composting Handbook (NRAES-54)
©1992 by NRAES (Natural Resource, Agriculture, and Engineering Service)
http://compost.css.cornell.edu/OnFarmHandbook/onfarm_TOC.html


Science and Engineering of Composting
Cornell University Composting Science & Engineering
Cornell Waste Management Institute ©1996
http://compost.css.cornell.edu/science.html


Specific info/directions:

C:N ratio

• http://compost.css.cornell.edu/calc/cn_ratio.html

Moisture content (needed for C:N ratio and to keep pile at good moisture (i.e., 45-60%))

• http://compost.css.cornell.edu/calc/moisture_content.html

Carbon bio-availability (re lignin content of cells)

• http://compost.css.cornell.edu/calc/lignin.html

Particle size of feedstocks (smaller is better, to a point; ~1-2" is ideal)

• http://compost.css.cornell.edu/calc/partsize.html

pH (using SME is better because it's faster and drying/heating samples can affect pH)

• http://compost.css.cornell.edu/monitor/monitorph.html

SME (Saturated Media Extract)

• (PDF) http://www.soiltest.uconn.edu/factsheets/InterpSMEGreenMedia.pdf

 

[CascadeFarmer]

@ CascadeFarmer,

Here is a good page about compost odor and how to control it, from Cornell U. (link). Also a good resource is .edu info about mushroom composting (Penn State runs probably the best site) because mushroom compost processes use lots of chicken manure and ammonium/phosphate fertilizer, and shoot for high NH4 levels, were as we shoot for high NO3 levels.

Gypsum is a must have for mushroom composting to reduce ammonia smell, and increase nitrogen reclamation, thanks to the sulfate in the gypsum, IIRC (it could be the Ca, but I think it's the sulfate).

Thx again. I have been using some oyster shell powder mainly for Ca without messing with the pH. A friend told me the little beasties LOVE Ca along with their N. Also using some Sea Crop for traces as I think Azomite is a very poor trace mineral supplement. My friend also told me some Soft Rock Phosphate is good for helping reduce N loss. Next round I'll try adding some gypsum. I definitely don't have any sulfate in the 'formula' right now.

For sure this time too much greens but I also mess around with adding some oyster shell powder, Sea Crop, HumaCarb...you know what that is if you talk to Lawrence, and organic low temp dried grass juice powder (either wheat, barley, oat or alfalfa) which I feel can really accelerate things.

Next round will be better...I think.

Was doing more reading and when you get over like 150 F the ammonia thing really kicks in.

 

[spurr]

Hard for me to turn a pile due to injuries/accidents.

You (and I) need this ...

It's less expensive, yet just as good (even with water tank sprayers) as the Luebke "CMC" compost turner. That compost turner in the pic, the "Mighty Mike", is about $5,000 (IIRC), plus the cost of a small tractor (or maybe big four-wheeler) to toe it.

I have pretty much gotten out of the idea that composting is the ideal method, I think ideally it would be (1) make good compost and (2) use compost as feedstock for worm beds/bins. Or at least I think vermicomposting is better than thermophilic composting, in terms of end product for gardening.

 

[spurr]

Was doing more reading and when you get over like 150 F the ammonia thing really kicks in.

Yes, at about 50'C[1] ammonia loss in caused by heat, and increases exponentially as temp increases. However, the pH of the pile has a big impact on the loss of ammonia (N); the lower the pH the less loss of N[1].

To carryout thermophilic composting we must allow temps to exceed (or at least reach for a few days) 150'F; better yet to allow them to exceed 165'F. So, the solutions most often used are those I listed, to minimize loss of N as ammonia (aka "ammonia volatilization").

Another method employed to reduce ammonia volatilization is to keep the compost at ~122-131'F (50-55'C) for few days. Ex. by turning daily (which will increase ammonia loss itself) and watering. Then let it get hotter, up to ~175'F (80'C) max; I like my piles to reach ~170-175'F (~77-80'C).

If pH is below 8, which ideally it is, the loss of ammonia (N) due to pH alone is greatly reduced, as well as with respect to interaction of pH and heat.


"Compost Fundamentals; reclamation of nitrogen and other nutrients"
Washington State U.
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/fundamentals/consideration_reclamation.htm

Ammonia escapes as ammonia hydroxide as the pH rises above 7.0. In the later stages of composting the pH may rise to between 8.0 and 9.0. At this time there should not be an excessive amount of nitrogen present as ammonia. Materials that contain large amounts of ash will have a high pH and may be expected to lose more nitrogen.

Some compost operators add lime to improve composting. This should be done only under rare circumstances, such as when raw material has a high acidity due to acid wastes or contains materials that give rise to highly acid conditions during composting. When the pH remains above 4.0 to 4.5, lime should not be added. The pH will be increased by biological action and nitrogen conserved.

...

High temperatures increase volatilization and escape of ammonia. Since high temperatures are fundamental in aerobic composting and destruction of pathogen, not much can be done about controlling temperatures other than to avoid temperatures above 160° Fahrenheit, which retard bacterial activity and permit ammonia accumulation. Since the greatest ammonia loss occurs during early stages of active decomposition, only little conservation of nitrogen will be gained by reducing temperatures after the two turns or after the first 6 to 8 days of active decomposition.

"Ammonia emissions from the composting of different organic wastes. Dependency on process temperature"
Estela Pagans, Raquel Barrena, Xavier Font, Antoni Sanchez
Chemosphere 62 (2006) 1534–1542
http://icta.uab.cat/99_recursos/1226484415511.pdf

Simultaneously, it is widely reported that high temperature inhibit the nitrification process (Grunditz and Dalhammar, 2001), and thereby, the possibility for ammonia volatilization is high. Thus, Beck-Friis et al. (2001) observed that ammonia emissions started when thermophilic temperatures (>45'C) and high pH (about 9) coexist in the compost environment, resulting in a total loss of nitrogen within 24–33% of the initial nitrogen content. Similarly, Cronje et al. (2002) determined that the nitrogen losses for organic mixtures with an initial pH < 6.2 were below 4% of the initial nitrogen content.

...

High temperature affects ammonia volatilization and at a higher pH, non-volatile ammonium ions are converted to the volatile ammonia form.

...

From the results obtained in this study a temperature control at full-scale should be based on maintaining a relatively low temperature during the first stage of the process (50–55'C) where ammonia emissions are low and to fulfill the sanitisation requirements at the final stage of composting after the maximum activity has been achieved. The objective of this control would be to minimise ammonia losses during the composting process to improve the quality of the compost and to reduce treatment costs.

...

4. Conclusions

A quantitative study on the ammonia emissions produced in the composting of five organic wastes was carried out. The main conclusions are:

(1) Ammonia emissions exhibited a similar relationship with temperature profile for each waste. However, the total amount of ammonia emitted was as expected directly related to the C/N ratio of the waste.

(2) Ammonia emissions pattern in the composting of the five wastes investigated strongly depended on process temperature. However, the trend observed in the thermophilic initial stage of composting showed an exponential increase when process temperature increases, whereas a linear correlation was found for ammonia emissions and temperature in the final mesophilic stage of the composting process.

(3) Sanitisation of the compost is required prior to application and it is achieved by maintained high temperature during a period of time. In large-scale composting operations, sanitisation should be conducted after the initial thermophilic stage. This would reduce ammonia emissions, environmental impact of the composting process and the cost of exhaust gases treatment.

(4) Optimal temperatures for the composting process in relation to the reduction of ammonia emissions should be investigated for each waste in order to obtain compost with the maximum nitrogen content.

(5) Temperature appears to be the most suitable parameter to control ammonia emissions when composting of organic wastes. However, the effect of pH on ammonia emissions and the combination of temperature–pH effects should be the aim of future studies on composting organic wastes.

 

[spurr]

@ Scrappy4,

FWIW, the compost fleece ComposTex looks a lot like the material used in the compost bags someone posted in this thread, here: http://www.compostsak.com/

 

[Microbeman]

Spurr; Interesting about the bentonite. I was using it in 99-2000 instead of azomite. Part 2 is connected to the first one somehow...I dunno. One of Ingham's cronnies begged me for my microscope DVD - "I don't know anything about microscopes. Please help me" I gave it to her free. Now she has used the format to create U-tube videos featuring non other than Dr. Ingham.....Sometimes I vomit....I hope Rodale is happy because they shot themselves.

 

[CC_2U]

I have pretty much gotten out of the idea that composting is the ideal method, I think ideally it would be (1) make good compost and (2) use compost as feedstock for worm beds/bins. Or at least I think vermicomposting is better than thermophilic composting, in terms of end product for gardening.

spurr

Given the type of research you're capable of doing, check out the 40+ year work of Dr. Clive Edwards (Ohio State University) whose career has taken his to almost every continent to work with governments, agriculture research stations and most importantly to you and I - a very heavy emphasis in the area of horticulture per se.

His conclusions about EWC vs. thermal compost, again in a horticulture operation, is definitely a must read.

A study published a couple of months back by Dr. Yasmin J. Cardoza title "Vermicompost-Mediated Host Plant Resistance to Insects" might just close the door on the discussion. This study definitely nails down the "20% EWC level" debate at least under the parameters of this study on insect suppression.

CC

 

[CascadeFarmer]

Yes, at about 50'C[1] ammonia loss in caused by heat, and increases exponentially as temp increases. However, the pH of the pile has a big impact on the loss of ammonia (N); the lower the pH the less loss of N[1].

To carryout thermophilic composting we must allow temps to exceed (or at least reach for a few days) 150'F; better yet to allow them to exceed 165'F. So, the solutions most often used are those I listed, to minimize loss of N as ammonia (aka "ammonia volatilization").

Another method employed to reduce ammonia volatilization is to keep the compost at ~122-131'F (50-55'C) for few days. Ex. by turning daily (which will increase ammonia loss itself) and watering. Then let it get hotter, up to ~175'F (80'C) max; I like my piles to reach ~170-175'F (~77-80'C).

If pH is below 8, which ideally it is, the loss of ammonia (N) due to pH alone is greatly reduced, as well as with respect to interaction of pH and heat.

I was really happy when the compost was getting no more than 130F initially. The slow cook seemed better and when the temp rocketed fast things got funky fast.

As for pH guess if I laid off adding certain ingredients that would keep the pH lower. From what I understand the oyster shell flour would not impact pH too much but in a highly active enviro like compost maybe not. I was actually holding off putting in any charcoal powder in the beginning to make sure the pH drops at least initially. Should get a good pH meter. I got a nasty ticket yesterday going on a scouting mission for herb/weed pics for Jay's thread here so will probably have to pass. Was thinking about the Hanna meter which is basically the cost of my ticket.

I'm behind on my reading on all the stuff you posted and will get caught up soon.

As for the Luebke info I assume you're pretty well up on your ORP stuff? I only touched on that pretty briefly a few years ago.

Thx much for the links and info!

Materials that contain large amounts of ash will have a high pH and may be expected to lose more nitrogen.

Honestly this may be part of the issue I'm experiencing. Native weeds are much higher in ash, from what I understand, than things like table crop scraps. I was also adding Sea Crop for traces but that will only add to the ash content. Still not adding that much though and only like 2 tablespoons per 80 gallon tumbler run and the liquid is 20% solids. Another thing I add is young cut dried organic grass juices at some stages and they're very high in sugars but also very high in ash.

 

[CascadeFarmer]

A friend gives me all the blue green algae I want to play with for free and was adding some of that. After research found out the ash content is like 8% and the N content about 60%. Getting some C of A's for the grass juice powders and know the sugar and ash content is really high and will post the info when available.

Probably creating some of my own 'problems' here it seems.

Another thing I was doing, based on input from Organic Girl at the local nursery, was add 2-4 tablespoons of high brix molasses once things kicked into gear. I probably have had compost on steroids...lol.

 

[CascadeFarmer]

The grass juices on average are about 30% ash with wheat being more like 45%, sugar is about 18%, carbs around 30+% with wheat about 15% and protein is about 30%. I was using up to 1 lb of extract powder per tumbler run which contained about 40 gallons of material once it settled down after breaking down pretty good.

I figured the extract ratio is about 25:1 so a 1 lb of extract is equal to about 25 lbs of fresh grass.

 

[spurr]

I was really happy when the compost was getting no more than 130F initially. The slow cook seemed better and when the temp rocketed fast things got funky fast.

You should let the compost at least reach 150'F for three days, turning at least twice, to pasteurize the pile; esp. if you use manure as a feedstock.

As for pH guess if I laid off adding certain ingredients that would keep the pH lower. From what I understand the oyster shell flour would not impact pH too much but in a highly active enviro like compost maybe not.

I will increase pH (esp. in a active compost pile), and because it has calcium carbonate, it will also increase nitrogen loss as ammonia. So there is a twofer negative to using oyster shell (or any pH increasing product that has calcium carbonate): pH may increase too far, thus greatly increasing N loss as ammonia (esp. at early thermophilic stage), and the calcium carbonate itself will hasten N loss as ammonia.

As for the Luebke info I assume you're pretty well up on your ORP stuff? I only touched on that pretty briefly a few years ago.

Yea, but I don't pay too much attention to ORP and rH. It is something I have been wanted to look at though, once I get an ORP meter.

Thx much for the links and info!

No worries.

 

[spurr]

Another thing I was doing, based on input from Organic Girl at the local nursery, was add 2-4 tablespoons of high brix molasses once things kicked into gear. I probably have had compost on steroids...lol.

I would suggest against that, for the very reason you wrote: compost (bacteria) on steroids; esp. if added during thermophilic stage. That is probably one reason your pile got hot, fast. A properly made compost pile has no need for molasses, there is plenty of sugars in the compost feedstock.

 

[CascadeFarmer]

I will increase pH (esp. in a active compost pile), and because it has calcium carbonate, it will also increase nitrogen loss as ammonia. So there is a twofer negative to using oyster shell (or any pH increasing product that has calcium carbonate): pH may increase too far, thus greatly increasing N loss as ammonia (esp. at early thermophilic stage), and the calcium carbonate itself will hasten N loss as ammonia.

I would suggest against that, for the very reason you wrote: compost (bacteria) on steroids; esp. if added during thermophilic stage. That is probably one reason your pile got hot, fast. A properly made compost pile has no need for molasses, there is plenty of sugars in the compost feedstock.

Both those things make total sense in regards to causing some 'problems' for me. I just get over involved and like to fiddle too much and will simplify my approach.

Was interesting to see though how how temps wuld change adding certain things and how long it took for the activity increase, etc.