Teaming with Microbes

[h.h.]

Seems a few inconsistencies between the book and this forum at least in the making of teas and their storage. The book suggests bubbling grass or alfalfa for 3 or 4 days to make protozoa soup for your mulches. It also mentions storing a tea a few days by keeping the air to it.
It did mention using aloe vera as a fungal food. Fruit juice could be used as well.
Apparently, since mj is an annual, we should be shooting for a bacterial dominated soil rather than a fungal one. Is adding fungus counterproductive?
The book answered a few major questions, brought up a few, and somewhat confirmed some of my voodoo and dispelled other parts. All and all a good read, if not a little more adventurous than some of the safe advice given here. Read it all too quick, will have to read again.
Thanks to all who have suggested it. Now pick it apart if you can.

 

[mad librettist]

You are misreading the part about bacterial vs. fungal soil. Fungi are still absolutely essential in a bacterial dominated system such as is ideal for cannabis. MJ does not like it too bacterial - it prefers steady food, rather than boom and bust. Look a little further down the line of succession.

Microbeman has commented before on protozoa soup. That is nothing new. Protozoa soup is useful. The book does not recommend doing this "for your mulches". Read it again. Protozoa soup is for certain instances, but most of the time is not what you want, for your mulches or otherwise. Protozoa soup will result in a quick N boost.

I don't remember reading in the book that you can store teas. Anyway, this is wrong and will be changed by next edition.

 

[h.h.]

While they are essential, the ratio is changed by the amount of fungi present...I'm taking this from my readings. Adding fungi to an annual to increase the ratio is backwards, at least according to the book. It suggests green mulches to promote bacterial growth and brown for fungal.
Mycorrhizae having no use for annuals, must then be forced to have a relationship with mj?
The soup on the mulch thing, I take as an initial inoculation and not something that would be constantly feed.
Do you have the book? I'm pretty sure I'm getting what it says...Books are often wrong as are forums.

 

[h.h.]

Pour this protozoa soup on mulches, and you will increase the nutrient cycling power of the second soil food web gardening tool.

Lowenfels, Jeff (2006). Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web (Kindle Location 2077). Timber Press. Kindle Edition.

It is best to use compost tea within four hours of manufacture, though it will last, diminishing in populations, for about three to five days if kept refrigerated or if you continue to bubble air through

Lowenfels, Jeff (2006). Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web (Kindle Locations 2224-2225). Timber Press. Kindle Edition.

Quotes

 

[GoneRooty]

Mycorrhizae having no use for annuals, must then be forced to have a relationship with mj?

Where did you come up with this bit of "info"? How can you say mycorrhizae have no use for annuals? Are you trying to say that annuals don't form mycorrhizal relationships? Utterly ridiculous!! Here's a quote from Teaming with Microbes since you're so keen on quoting it.

Endomycorrhizal fungi are preferred by most vegetables, annuals, grasses, shrubs, perennials, and softwood trees

p61

Sounds like you're misreading something along the way here. Maybe you're confusing ecto and endo mycorrhizae? Ectomycorrhizae usually form relationships with conifers, endomycorrhizae form relationships with almost every type of plant.

at leasts 90% of all plants form mycorrhizae, and the percentage is probably 95% or even higher

p60

And you can't "force" a mycorrhizal relationship on a plant, it's a naturally occurring process. The reason we add myco's is because they are generally missing in indoor gardens.

 

[Butte_Creek]

everyone should read that book. i still go back and read certain sections all the time. it might not be 100% correct, but the wealth of knowledge that is attainable is grand.

what if everyone on icmag was forced to read that book before being allowed membership to the site?

 

[h.h.]

Quote:
Mycorrhizae having no use for annuals, must then be forced to have a relationship with mj?
Where did you come up with this bit of "info"? How can you say mycorrhizae have no use for annuals? Are you trying to say that annuals don't form mycorrhizal relationships? Utterly ridiculous!! Here's a quote from Teaming with Microbes since you're so keen on quoting it.

While annuals do benefit, the book mentions the reasons why myco would avoid a short term relationship. It would be difficult for the 2 to have evolved together. This was meant as a question really.
I know the fungus is needed, but is it often overdone offsetting the balance, or is that even possible?

 

[mad librettist]

While annuals do benefit, the book mentions the reasons why myco would avoid a short term relationship. It would be difficult for the 2 to have evolved together. This was meant as a question really.
I know the fungus is needed, but is it often overdone offsetting the balance, or is that even possible?

you are totally misunderstanding what you are reading.

don't go spraying protozoa soup on every mulch to increase nutrient cycling. If you make you mulch right it is not necessary. Protozoa soup is a rescue operation with risks.

Also the book has been revised since 2006. It will need revising again. And again. And again.





Let me be clear - compost tea can't be stored! You can brew it slowly in low temps, but in the summer your window is very short. I have checked with a scope!

 

[mad librettist]

re: " fungal:bacterial"

not sure how actually scientific it is but the Ingham people say tomatoes like 1:1, and I'd say most cannabis likes that too, or slightly more bacterial (potato soil).

Example of a specie that does not associate: Brassica oleracea (this specie comes as broccoli, cauliflower, kohlrabi, cabbage, kale, brussels sprouts.... this specie is bi-annual.


Probably in a couple years they will say "woops, we found the mycorrhizae that like brassica".



Corpse flower - symbiotic plant/fungus duo. All the plant side does is make a pale white flower when it's time to reproduce. Talk about short lived!


My living mulches are supposed to carry the infection from harvest to harvest so I don't start over every time.

 

[Microbeman]

We must avoid confusion over what is termed a fungally dominant soil, as in typical mycorrhizal fungi and the fungi which grows in (vermi)compost and ACT. Most fungal hyphae which grows in ACT is fungi imperfecti. [I am working on a hypothesis that some of this is dark septate endophyte which may be mycorrhizal but that is a ways off]. This is (under current knowledge) not endo nor ectomycorrhizal type fungi. To the best of my (our) knowledge the fungi imperfecti provides food for bacteria/archaea, pathways, aeration, aggregation, moisture retention, etc. but does not directly feed any roots. If you are after the fungi which is mycorrhizal with cannabis you should apply the spores of Glomus Mossae and G. Intraradices (sp?), both endomycorrhizal species, at seeding, cutting or(and) transplant time. Mycorrhizal fungi is better suited to a plant which has a fairly lengthy vegetative period otherwise Trichoderma strain 22 might be a better choice.

As for the protozoa soup, Jeff knows my take on this. It may be beneficial but I prefer to derive my protozoa from my (vermi)compost in ACT or at least include the alfalfa right into the ACT brew at the onset, so the protozoa and bacteria/archaea grow up together already cycling nutrients. It only takes 36 to 40 hours and sometimes less.

 

[mad librettist]

never seen a protozoa shortage in vermicompost.

 

[jaykush]

Mycorrhizae having no use for annuals, must then be forced to have a relationship with mj?

tell that to the garlic i just pulled that there was more mycelium on the roots than roots.

 

[h.h.]

I imagine the author used some sort of scientific basis in writings as well. If storing tea worked in 06' there is no reason not to work in 2011. Certainly not a good practice. Then he goes on to talk about the p soup done by brewing 3 days. A bit inconsistent, it seems.
When I add old leaf litter or fungi products, I do seem to get improved growth. I think you're right that there are relationships they have yet to understand, while not perhaps directly, indirectly by the added soil qualities.

 

[mad librettist]

the authors used the best information available at the time.

 

[jaykush]

fungi = decomposers = good for your soil no matter what. even if they are not mycorrhizal.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

This is a good book. I think everyone that grows in soil should read it. It opens your eyes to a lot of things that you were once blind to. It is a great start. Just keep reading, and remember that everyone is always right on forums, including yourself.

 

[Butte_Creek]

microbeman- kind of related to the issue, i know you would be the one to ask,

how efficient/successful does the plant orchestrate what bacteria/fungi is wants present at any given time in the rhizosphere through exudates and such?


and,
through excessive use of certain inoculants or sugars(bacterial dominant food vs. fungi dominant food) can you throw off the "correct" balance of bacteria to fungi in the rhizosphere? can you really screw things up?

 

[h.h.]

the authors used the best information available at the time.

So accuracy is questionable?

 

[Butte_Creek]

almost nothing is certain in this world. science is constantly being questioned/revised/disproved/discovered. i wouldn't use the word "questionable" though.

 

[CT Guy]

I imagine the author used some sort of scientific basis in writings as well. If storing tea worked in 06' there is no reason not to work in 2011. Certainly not a good practice. Then he goes on to talk about the p soup done by brewing 3 days. A bit inconsistent, it seems.
When I add old leaf litter or fungi products, I do seem to get improved growth. I think you're right that there are relationships they have yet to understand, while not perhaps directly, indirectly by the added soil qualities.

Okay, felt the need to weigh in here as well. Jeff is an excellent author and speaker, but the majority of his book is stuff that he sourced from other people and their research. He's not the guy looking down the microscope, but rather someone who is adept at writing and synthesizing other's work.

Much of his information came from Dr. Ingham. While her work was revolutionary, some if it has since been proven to be not completely accurate (I believe her overall research and assumptions were pretty good though in relation to the Soil Foodweb).

People like MM on here are using a microscope constantly and have found that some of the claims made by people within the compost tea industry are based on poor knowledge and not enough consistent data and research.

For example, there are companies like Vermicrop that say you can put your tea in the fridge and store it. From my microscope work, I've found this statement to be complete crap. However, there's no regulatory agency to say that they're wrong or can't make whatever claims they want. Many commercial makers claim to be experts, but very few of them actually use microscopes or have replicable lab data.

Long story short, just read everything with a grain of salt. Just like you can't take all the info you get on here as divine truth. Everyone has differing opinions and experiences. The information shared by myself and MM is backed by our own personal microscope work and in some cases by lab data from SFI, but you can choose to believe what you want or do further research either online or with your own microscope.

Regardless, glad to hear you've discovered the book. It's a great resource for the organic gardener, and I wish you the best of luck with your garden!