Signs that a collapse is under way.

[DiscoBiscuit]

Patriot Act?

Patriot Act?

Anybody see the Danial Elsberg article in the paper the other day?

Elsberg was a ex Marine turned government official that became a household name in the 1970s. Elsberg is the guy that leaked the documents known as the Pentagon Papers.

The Pentagon Papers exposed the government for lying to itself and the American people over the futile nature of the Vietnam war.

Elsberg was charged as a spy and arrested for treason. He could have ended up with a life-sentence at Ft. Leavenworth or at the end of a hangman's noose. The government had to let him go free because the government violated Elsberg's 4th amendment right to unnecessary search and seizure.

For quite some time, the story that culminated in president Richard Nixon's resignation centered on lying to investigators over the breaking and entering of DNC nation headquarters inside the Watergate Hotel.

Far closer to the truth, Nixon operatives broke into Elsberg's psychiatrist's office, seeking private, personal files that might suggest that Elsberg was insane, before during and after the release of the Pentagon Papers.

The Pentagon Papers not only revealed that every president involved in Vietnam knew the outcome was futile for the US. But they also revealed the fact that we'd studied the Vietnam potential from 1945 to 1971. Not unlike big tobacco having to cop after their own documents revealed they knew tobacco caused multiple and deadly health risks.

Elsberg went from traitor to national hero overnight. But Elsberg isn't happy today.

The Patriot Act made Nixon's crimes legal.

In the news article, Elsberg went on to say that every president since our involvement in Vietnam violated their war powers under the Constitution. The latest is Obama's incursion into Libya.

Central banking and the fractional-reserve monetary system could do us all in. But in the meantime, the Patriot Act gives any president any power they want.

When did we get out of Vietnam 74/75? We've had more wars [since then] than any point in history. Ike knew what was happening before we publicly acknowledged military actions in Vietnam. His official exit speech warned us not to underestimate the power of the Military Industrial Complex.

Ike wasn't talking about the USSR, the Cold War, nuclear annihilation etc. Mutually-assured-destruction and competent state department diplomats made the cold war sub-zero.

Ike was warning us about relatively small-yet-endless, conventional wars the MIC would aggressively lobby and foster in perpetuity. WWII and Korea whet MICs appetite for power and profits.

Wars don't have to be as big when weaponry is ever more expensive, coupled with US' desire to remain a super power.

Anybody remember Petraeus crowing that SOF operations forces have killed over 4000 Taliban combatants and captured over 2500 Taliban since Nato and US forces began to take on more resistance with the spring offensive?

90% of these captured, Taliban prisoners weren't Taliban at all. They were Afghan civilians and had to be released within days after their capture and interrogation. Makes one wonder how many non-Taliban afghan civilians were killed in that ~4000 figure.

These days, war never stops because MIC is as rich and powerful as ever. MIC even brainwashed Rumsfeld into publicly stating that all our weapons were just sitting around and should be put to use.

 

[HempKat]

the fault does not lie with the agent,loan officer,bank,closing agent,title company or government.
it lies squarely with those who signed on the dotted lines and initialed on the solid ones.

Even the ones who basically can barely read or speak english and never would have qualified for a mortgage if they were working with reputable agents and lenders? People who didn't really understand what they were signing or intialling but rather only did so because they were told they had to if they wanted to get the home? These are the sorts of people the disreputable lenders and agents went after.

I remember seeing one woman on the news back when the bust first started happening. She was a hispanic woman barely able to speak english who had children, no husband and was making minimum wage. So asshole convinced her to buy a $300K home. It never should have happened, she never should have defaulted because she never should have got that mortgage. If she got to stay there rent free for a few years then it's just small consolation for the moral crime the lender commit in lending to someone who was doomed to default.

What I don't get with all this business of toxic loans etc. is that most of these foreclosures didn't happen until the ARM's adjusted so why don't the banks just go back to the lower rates with these folks? Some money is better then no money right?

 

[HempKat]

just to reiterate..
no one was forced to sign...


i was taught loooooooooong ago if you cant put 30% down and the payment on a 15 year fixed is more than one weeks income; you shouldn't buy it!

a rule every real estate buyer should live by!

Too bad the entire world didn't go to the same school you did?

 

[HempKat]

I don't understand why anyone with a mortgage written in the last 10 yrs would not just default and let their mortgage company TRY to foreclose...... Strictly a business decision of course.

Because some people have morals and ethics and can see beyond the shiney light of personal gain to understand doing things honestly rather then just taking advantage of whatever you can even if you don't deserve it, is better in the long run.

A religious man might say, "What does it profit a man to gain the world only to lose his immortal soul?"

 

[Tripp Inmiasov]

Because some people have morals and ethics and can see beyond the shiney light of personal gain to understand doing things honestly rather then just taking advantage of whatever you can even if you don't deserve it, is better in the long run.

A religious man might say, "What does it profit a man to gain the world only to lose his immortal soul?"

I would think you would know by now that religion and morals do not necessarily go hand-in-hand.

 

[HempKat]

How about we ask people to take care of themselves? What a concept eh? Expecting people to stand up and accept the future they've sowed...unheard of in America.

How about we stop swinging from one extreme to another and compromise. Sometimes things happen and people can no longer take care of themselves and need help. There's nothing wrong with giving someone in need help. The problem is we give handouts instead of a hand up. I have no problem with someone having to do something for the help they get. I have even less problem if the something they do will actually provide them a skill that makes them self sufficient. That's the real problem with welfare, as it is now it does nothing to get people to self sufficiency and so you end up with generations on welfare and people having never known any way to be self sufficient.

EVERYONE is greedy and looking out for themselves...the poor, the middle, and the rich. The problems come about when some people think they know best for everyone else...and then those who make those laws...don't have to follow them!

That assumption is about as ignorant and assinine as most of China is populated by peasents with pitchforks. Sure there are peasents in China and sure there are alot of greedy people. To suggest all or most are that way though is the tune those thinking they know what's best for everyone, whistle.

What is wrong with people KEEPING their own things/money? Why do we HAVE to give to those we personally feel are undeserving? ALL welfare sucks...to people or to corporations. Eliminate ALL welfare and we could get through this economic "dip".

No, what we would have is a sharp rise in crime as people turn to desperation to survive or to help their families survive and all the corporations would take their business elsewhere. Don't you know that's the threat they use whenever any politician talks about taking away corporate welfare for companies that don't need it. You know companies turning record profits year after year for the past decade. Don't believe me? Just ask Exxon, BP, Shell, etc.

So? At least we wouldn't have to house, clothe, and feed them any more. It sounds like as a country, a society...we'd be better off without them! We can use them as cover...about all their good for...according to you.

No I never suggested it's all they're good for, I suggested it's all they're good for if you don't give them equipment and training that's far more expensive then the meager welfare they get. What we would be better off doing is trying to give these people skills so they can become productive members of society rather then setting them up for slaughter.

So you don't mind if YOUR investment get "wiped clean"? You don't mind giving up some of your hard earned and invested money just getting wiped clean?

What the fuck are you talking about? first of all we aren't talking about my investment or even yours or anyone else's investment. We are talking the investment of a country you think is run by peasents with pitchforks, the same country who is not honoring trade agreements which hinders the success of company's and individual investors here in America. The same country who is artificially controlling the value of their currency at the expense of the rest of the world. The same country that has the technology and skill to shut us down thru a cyber
attack without sending one single soldier to our soil. Peasents with pitchforks indeed.

We're ALL getting screwed by these freeloaders!

No that's just the line you are being fed. We're being screwed by the institutions that lend to people they have no business lending to and then refusing to take responsibility for their poor judgement by passing their losses on to all the honest people they do business with.

Yes, most people are ignorant idiots...but they need to live with their decisions...don't hold ME responsible for their lack of judgment. Don't hold ME responsible for paying their bills.

Do you realize what the streets would look like without unemployment and food stamps? Without welfare and housing? It would make the "great" depression look like good times! Welfare is ending...we can't afford it any more...and it's going to get ugly.

I may be paranoid...but at least if it DOES happen, I'll be more prepared than most. I think of it as insurance. Is it paranoid to carry insurance? After all...accidents hardly ever happen...right? But when they do...it's great to be prepared.

Good luck to you liberals...you may need it!

Really? Most people are ignorant? So you've personally met and accessed the intelligence of a little more then 3 Billion people? Because that's the only way your statement could be anymore then ignorant and/or idiotic.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Even the ones who basically can barely read or speak english and never would have qualified for a mortgage if they were working with reputable agents and lenders? People who didn't really understand what they were signing or intialling but rather only did so because they were told they had to if they wanted to get the home? These are the sorts of people the disreputable lenders and agents went after.

I remember seeing one woman on the news back when the bust first started happening. She was a hispanic woman barely able to speak english who had children, no husband and was making minimum wage. So asshole convinced her to buy a $300K home. It never should have happened, she never should have defaulted because she never should have got that mortgage. If she got to stay there rent free for a few years then it's just small consolation for the moral crime the lender commit in lending to someone who was doomed to default.

What I don't get with all this business of toxic loans etc. is that most of these foreclosures didn't happen until the ARM's adjusted so why don't the banks just go back to the lower rates with these folks? Some money is better then no money right?

I'm no trader but I believe those balloon payments had to prop up the CDOs because little to no down payment and the first few months of interest-only teaser loans didn't support the already traded securities. I can't prove but the balloons may have been built-in gentrification in order to sell the same house again, 6 months later. Far fetched but we've seen crazy shit happening the last 10 years.

I recon the lady in the above example was on the street fairly quickly. Even if she qualified for a decent loan it probably would have amounted to a trailer. Other folks were in it for the right reasons and propped up worthless investments while their homes values sank well below what they're paying for. At least in some cases, it brings strategic default in to clearer view. The lady in your example may have actually thought her low payments would stick long enough to sell the house in the event she couldn't afford it. Make a profit like millions of other mortgagees were doing.

Charlie Sheen's ex-wife got out of an expensive home just before the bust and got rid of Charlie's ass along with it.

 

[bentom187]

mabey this will help here cause it didnt raise any eyebrows before.
when you read this and they refer to russia,just put the letters USA in their place and youll start to see the similarities.
leon trostsky was a marxist that had a slightley different oppinion,he wanted somthing called constant revolution, to set up the prerequisits for a socialist society,by turning the lower class into a wlfare/subserviant tax payer lower class ,a industrialized /military /govt employed middleclass and the upper class receiving all the wealth and doing the decision making and receiving all the profit,they will unite (distract) us with a common cause wich then we will all be forced to work for.
please discuss how this applies to us or dosnt,because to me it looks like we are getting closer by the day.

sorry i forgot to post the link for your camparisons.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1931/tpr/rp-index.htm

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I wonder if that's the pre or post (Paul Revere, revisionist-style) Trotsky. Lot's of revisionist history going around to support contemporary ideology.

Lot of stuff going around based on comments or writings that often contextualize meaning into understanding or diversion. Even if it was legit, it's not unlike trying to understand the definition and real world application of fascism the way it's being passed around like candy these days. Wish I had the historic perspective to know more of what I'm reading.

thanks for the link

Trotsky never really got past the philosophical renderings because he wasn't really a leader in the practical sense. Lenin and subsequently Stalin were the Russian revolution heavy weights, Stalin being predecessor to Lenin.

Philosophical history is tough to get the meat because there's often less significant actions that actual leaders apply. Sometimes actions speak clearer than words and we're getting what somebody else got, not necessarily what went on.

 

[Maria_Vanessa]

In this article, even a family that made a huge down payment on their house is wondering whether or not to walk away from their home. A small section of their story, The Merritts, is closer to the end of the article.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2011-06-12-mortgage-default_n.htm

On Helens Pouroff Ave., escaping falling home prices
By Julie Schmit, USA TODAY

NORTH LAS VEGAS — Dayna and Scott Merritt ask themselves almost every day if they should keep paying their mortgage.

Many other residents on their street, Helens Pouroff Avenue, stopped long ago. Since the 69 new homes on this street were sold in 2006, almost half the owners have defaulted on their mortgages. Most of the houses went into foreclosure, which helped drive prices down for others on the street.

The Merritts' house has suffered a typical fate. The couple paid $385,000 for it in 2006. It's now worth about $180,000, recent sales indicate, and Las Vegas prices are still falling.

The Merritts are torn between continuing to sink money into a house that may never regain its value or finding a way out. They have plenty of company. About 11 million U.S. homeowners are underwater on their mortgages, meaning they owe more on them than their homes are worth. Of those, 2 million are so deeply underwater that market researcher CoreLogic predicts their homes will go into foreclosure or distressed sales.

The risk that more of those homeowners will default threatens housing markets nationwide, says CoreLogic economist Sam Khater. What's happened here does little to quell those fears.

Five years after the carnage began, those who walked from their Helens Pouroff homes say they're recovering from financial ruin. Several say they're considering buying homes again. But those still here have only seen values erode further. One by one, more consider an escape, which could mean walking away from their mortgage.

"We've stuck it out. But there's been no 'attaboy,'" says Dayna Merritt, 43, a substitute teacher. "We're paying on something that seems like it won't work out for us."

The threat of defaults driven by continued home price declines — and a sputtering U.S. economy — is particularly acute in Las Vegas, the foreclosure capital of the U.S. for more than four years.

Here, 66% of homeowners with a mortgage are underwater, compared with 23% nationwide. Almost one in four Nevadans who lost homes to foreclosure admitted in a survey that they walked away from their mortgages even though they could afford to pay, according to the Nevada Association of Realtors.

Defaulting on a mortgage can have dire consequences, including a 150-point drop in credit scores, tainted credit reports for years — up to 10 if one goes bankrupt — lost access to credit and higher costs for such things as insurance and new loans. In most states, lenders have years to try to collect losses suffered from foreclosures or other distressed home sales. That can lead to seized bank accounts and garnished wages, says Michele Johnson, CEO of Las Vegas Consumer Credit Counseling Service. People who abandon a mortgage will "live under a cloud" for years, she says.

Still, the grinding down of resolve to keep paying on deeply underwater homes is evident on Helens Pouroff, a straight, sun-baked street behind security gates where stucco homes are separated by a few feet of rock garden and small changes in floor plans.

Last year, Helens Pouroff saw just one new notice of default after 17 were filed in 2009, according to public records tracked by researcher ForeclosureRadar. This year, four homeowners who bought in 2006 have defaulted, public records show. "There's two types of people," says Dave Peterson, 38, a former Helens Pouroff homeowner. "People who see it coming and do something right away, and people who try to hold on until something forces them to let go."

A ‘toxic asset’

Peterson let go fairly early. He defaulted on his Helens Pouroff home in late 2008.

Like others, the former real estate agent bought in the up-and-coming Las Vegas suburb expecting prices to continue to sizzle. Instead, they peaked the month he bought and then tanked, as did Peterson's income. "I looked at our expenses like a corporation looks at their expenses, and the (house) was a toxic asset," Peterson says.

Peterson declared bankruptcy in 2009 and moved out of his $353,000 Helens Pouroff home. He loved the house — 1,800-square-feet with a tile courtyard — but not the $3,000-a-month mortgage for an asset declining in value.

Peterson suffered the pains of bankruptcy. His father, a Wyoming man who bought one house in his lifetime, thought the mortgage default was "irresponsible," Peterson says. He searched six weeks to find a rental for his wife and new baby as Las Vegas landlords scoffed at his credit rating, which fell to the 500s from the respectable 700s.

Now, almost two years out of bankruptcy, Peterson's credit score is back to 680, he says. That's about 60 points below the level needed to get the best pricing on home loans.

Without a $3,000-a-month mortgage to worry about, the couple pay $1,350 a month for a rented townhouse in a nicer neighborhood.

Instead of running up credit card debt to stretch income mainly devoted to paying their mortgage, Peterson, who now works in health care sales, and his wife, Gabby, save one of four paychecks they earn each month.

The couple hope to buy a house in their neighborhood next year. Peterson could be eligible for a home loan through the Veterans Administration. To get a conventional loan, he'd probably have to wait another year, because of his bankruptcy.

"I think we're in a good place now," Peterson says. To have stayed on Helens Pouroff, he says, "would've felt like prison."

Numbers told the story

Tamara Lemmon, a 33-year-old Internet marketing entrepreneur, feels the same way.

She bought the same month as Peterson but defaulted months earlier, after running through savings and losing an advertising job. A former professional poker player who's good with numbers, Lemmon sat with a spreadsheet in 2008 and calculated how long it might be before her home again would be worth what she paid for it 18 months before. "It was like 20 years," she says.

Lemmon filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy protection in 2008, listing $1.4 million in real estate debt, including the Helens Pouroff house and three rental properties. They all went back to the banks. Lemmon remarried and moved to Utah. She could be eligible for a home loan this summer through the Federal Housing Administration.

Not paying her previous debts "still bugs me," Lemmon says. But leaving Helens Pouroff "was absolutely the best financial decision."

Because they filed for bankruptcy, their mortgage debts were erased and Peterson and Lemmon run no risk that they'll be hunted down by lenders for losses suffered on their homes.

In most states, including Nevada, mortgage lenders have years to go after debtors who don't file for bankruptcy to try to recoup losses from foreclosures or short sales. A short sale is when lenders and borrowers agree to sell a house for less than what's owed.

Nationwide, lenders have not been aggressive in pursuing foreclosure losses on a broad basis, real estate attorneys say. But they still have time, and many will likely sell such cases to debt collection agencies, says Florida foreclosure defense attorney Roy Oppenheim. "I don't think we've seen the end of this yet," he says.

Lemmon opted for bankruptcy to avoid such a cloud. "I didn't want to feel I was looking over my shoulder. I just wanted closure," she says. One regret in letting the house go?

"That I didn't do it sooner," she says.

Money ‘we’ll never see again’

Busting out was easier for Peterson and Lemmon than for others. Like 31 of the 69 original Helens Pouroff buyers, Peterson put down no money, taking advantage of the lending standards of the time. Lemmon put about 6% down.

Those with minimal down payments have been more likely to default, USA TODAY found in analyzing ForeclosureRadar data.

Of the homeowners who put less than $100 down to buy, about half defaulted on the mortgage, records indicate. Of those who put more than $69,000 down, about 40% defaulted. The Helens Pouroff homes, in 2006, ranged from $322,000 to almost $470,000, depending on size.

Belinda and William Haag were one of the couples who put a big chunk down, $82,000 that "we'll never see again," says Belinda Haag, 53.

The couple, both federal government contractors, have failed to get their Helens Pouroff loan modified and still owe $344,000 on a home they estimate might sell for $180,000. They pay $2,044 a month on the mortgage. They could rent a similar house in the same area for about $1,000 a month, Haag says.

After paying for five years, the Haags expect to put their home on the market this summer. They're hoping for a short sale, which can be less damaging to credit ratings than a foreclosure. If the bank doesn't agree to a short sale, "We walk," Haag says. "We're going to go back to renting and will put money in our 401(k)s."

Rachael, 41, and Joseph Stewart, 46, likewise have run out of patience with their Helens Pouroff mortgage. They recently stopped paying and are hoping their lenders alter their loan.

The Stewarts, who paid top dollar for their home, have watched one house after another go into foreclosure. They've picked up trash and plucked weeds in abandoned front yards. The couple also altered their lifestyle as the recession hammered Joseph's chiropractor practice.

Rachael Stewart, a high school chemistry teacher, now shops at T.J.Maxx and Target, not Dillard's. She gets her hair cut every nine weeks, not every six. The couple sold their Mini Cooper.

"I took a coupon class," she says. "I used to throw those things away."

The last straw for the Stewarts came a few months ago when a law enforcement official showed up at their door, looking for a new neighbor who rents a similar house for far less than what the Stewarts pay to own, Stewart says. When the Stewarts bought in 2006, the development barred rentals. "I'm just irritated," she says. "Everybody else gets a break. I've never stopped paying my bills before," she says.

The Stewarts' loan was modified last year to run 40 years instead of 30. Given continued price drops, they want more concessions. If they don't get them, "We could buy a house like this for half as much," Stewart says, perched at the long granite counter in her kitchen. "We thought we'd raise our kids here. But it is just a house."

The Stewarts live across the street from their friends, the Merritts. The Merritts started the loan-modification process in 2009. They never finished as reports of others' failed attempts flew through the neighborhood and the news media.

The Merritts also made a big down payment, almost $80,000, when they bought in 2006.

Now, Scott Merritt's father, a retired Marine, sends him a spreadsheet each month detailing how long it will take the couple to climb out of the hole — not even considering getting their $80,000 back. The latest estimate: 2020.

"He says, 'Walk away; walk away,'" says Scott Merritt, 40. "But what then?"

Merritt has searched for nearby rentals so his children could stay in the same schools or other good ones. There isn't much to rent in those neighborhoods, he says. Merritt, who moved a lot as a kid, wants more stability for his children, ages 8 and 10. The couple have good credit, a sense of obligation for their debts and distaste for the uncertainty of moving. They bought the home knowing they wouldn't be able to save early on. But Dayna was pursuing a master's degree, which she completed to be a school counselor. Jobs are now scarce, and the Merritts still can't save.

Scott Merritt's income, as a tipped banquet server at Caesars Palace, fell 10% in recent years. The family now goes to the park, for free, not the movies. Last year, instead of flying to San Antonio for vacation, they drove. Twenty hours.

The Merritts also are five years closer to college bills and retirement than when they bought the home. If the Stewarts leave the street, there's one less reason to stay. "Every month," Dayna Merritt says, "I ask myself, 'Why are we paying this?'"

 

[HempKat]

Speaking of that. It's not like it isn't going to take everything from the baby boomers either.

This is the "new normal." Going to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

Many of us won’t be able to retire until our 80s
You’ll probably have to work much longer than you anticipated

The problem I have with all this is who is deciding what is enough for retirement and how are they sure? I ask because what was enough 10 years ago isn't and what's enough today probably won't be enough by the time you retire. What's it based on, is it based on living in luxurious homes, driving nice cars and being able to afford nice vacations and all the latest gadgets? It's a struggle but I can survive on less then $2000 per month for two people and own a single family home, own a new car, afford insurance and have everything I need and most things I want. I wonder if anyone planning retirement is thinking of living that modestly?

 

[HempKat]

Strategic defaulting DOES hurt your neighbor you moron. You lower the housing value of every house around you when you default on purpose. You also cause banks to be even tighter with what liquid cash they own. Now the few people actually trying to buy a home right now, will have a tougher time getting a loan. You made a bad investment, get some ethics and morals and do the right thing. Keep paying on your damn house or sell it, strategic default is scummy and low.

Ignorance is bliss huh "I only hurt the banks/gov" open your eyes buddy, it hurts EVERYONE.

Thanks for saying this, the biggest threat to the value of my home has been foreclosures. Fortunately the area I live in has enough going for it to keep it attractive to buyers and so values haven't dropped as badly except in neighborhoods where there have been lots of foreclosures.

 

[HempKat]

If you'd like to have a conversation, fine. No need to call names because you disagree with me though. In my view, based on what you said here anyway, you only have a superficial understanding of the problems.
I never said or thought that I made a bad investment. My rentals have been great investments. But, why should I continue to pay the mortgage, not knowing if I will ever be able to receive clear title?
The people who really caused and perpetuate the problems are the powerful financial interests in this country. Sorry but there's gonna be a lot of pain all around before things get "fixed" in this country, if thats even possible. Me doing a strategic default on a rental I own is not gonna make a bit of difference for anyone. If everyone did it though things could get fixed very quickly.
See how I said all that without calling you any names?

I don't judge you for choosing to take advantage of an opportunity especially if as you say you don't know if you'll ever recieve clear title. You are dead wrong on foreclosures not affecting others. I've lived in my home for about 15 years now on a 30 year fixed. Never missed a payment, never late and the area I live in is actually growing so home values haven't dropped as much here as in other parts of the country. Yet the value of my house and every house in the neighborhood I live in has dropped. Not because of predatory lending or mortgage backed securities or any of the stuff affecting other parts of the country but because of foreclosures. Mainly by people who bought homes at the end of the boom thinking they could fix them and flip them for a quick profit.

 

[HempKat]

Neighbors are not intended beneficiaries of mortgage contracts. If a rational economic actor makes a strategic decision to default they must deal with the risk of that decision.

If the risk to the defaulter is almost nothing (no defiency judgement) and the reward is substantial (free rent or rent collections for a few years) it is hard to blame a rational investor from walking away.

Sure the guy may be able to make the payments, but why? The banks get free bailouts why should someone be a chump and pay a $200K mtg on a house they can only sell for $100K? Some people in this situation see how bad the banks and previous foreclosures have fucked away their equity and now the best they can do is not lose any more to the scam.

Because that's the same brand of thinking that got us where we are now, "screw everyone else, I'm going to get mine." We kid ourselves that our actions don't affect others, they do.

 

[SpasticGramps]

I wonder if anyone planning retirement is thinking of living that modestly?

In today's age people are probably dreaming of retiring with limos and vineyards with $1,000 in their savings account.

My personal opinion is when/if pension funds and 401k's fail and social security/entitlements disappear due to insolvency everyone is going to be working till they drop dead. Retirement is about to become a thing of the past. Not part of the "new normal."

 

[indoor/outdoor]

the bible speaks of the end times i recall the particular verse "people will be lovers of money" "puffed up full of pride""lovers of themselves not lovers of god"

 

[HempKat]

read the article there...

i didn't see where anyone alleges force?

i see greedy people (who wanted to buy when they shouldn't) going to greedier (granted evil and fraudulent)businesses and SIGNING THE PAPERWORK

i will not post pictures of my surveyors licenses(had to be at any closing involving a boundary,wetland delineation,protected species,imminent domain,reclamation,elevation,easement ect... that i worked on)
or my real estate licenses for the states...

just another dishonest debate tactic to call into question the integrity of the arguer...

this is your only revolver

the "victims" are victims of themselves...

the true victims of the derivative trading lunacy are you and I not the idiots who bought homes WITH A.R.M.s and or NO MONEY DOWN!!!

i mean FFS do diligence on the part of the purchaser would have prevented most of those who got foreclosed on from buying in the first fucking place!!!

i was offered an arm after the storm,salesman pushed nice and hard...
all that kept me from buying an overpriced house in an inflated market with a ridiculous mortgage????
common sense overrode my need for instant gratification..

i love how the people who chose to do otherwise are somehow blameless in their current situation....

They aren't blameless but you make the wrong assumption that everyone possesses the same knowledge and abilities. Preadtory lending didn't go after smart educated buyers that do due dilligence. The want after idiots too stupid to see there is no way they could realistically afford a home let alone know how to do due dilligence in home buying. Were talking people so unintelligent that they honestly believed they never would have gotten the loan if the loan was too risky. Which wasn't unreasonable on there part because that's how it was for decades before the regulations were loosened or removed.

 

[Hydrosun]

The real sign of collapse is that all of us here see the fraud and multi trillion dollar rip off, doesn't matter if we are lib or conserv. we all see the scam and know the maid getting a 300k or 500k loan was a theft. Funny we argue over who stole what from whom, but we all agree that the zero down no doc how much do you want loan was never an honest contract it was always an attempt to defraud someone.

 

[HempKat]

The investors bought those fucked up mortgage packages for ONE reason...the US government GUARANTEED the loans! Stop telling business how to run their business.

I really think that the poor are going to be our downfall...they're sucking us dry. Our "poor" live better than the upper middle class in most countries. ALL on my dime! On YOUR dime!

THAT's what we need to do...not default...just stop giving away our money to people "I" feel deserve nothing. We're actually GROWING our poor population...every day we have more and more "needy" people to house and feed. THAT is what has to stop.

Our government is screwing us over...so they can get rich. Government and business...are the same people...they write laws for THEIR benefit...not the citizens. THAT is what has to stop. We need to take back government...not stop paying our debts.

The investors bought those fucked up mortgage packages because they were falsely rated as triple A which up until that point meant a very safe investment. The only involvement government had at that point was it was government that loosened the bonds of regulation that kept Wall Street from commiting such crimes. Too bad nobody at the time rembered that old lesson their parents or grandparents taught of, "If it looks too good to be true, it probably isn't".

 

[SpasticGramps]

the bible speaks of the end times i recall the particular verse "people will be lovers of money" "puffed up full of pride""lovers of themselves not lovers of god"

This isn't the end of times. Countries come and go. As massive as the American empire has been, 300 years from now it will be reduced to a few pages in a history book. Right next to the Wiemar Republic in the chapter on countries that tried to print their way to prosperity.