gregor_mendel
Active member
Much cheaper option for citric acid:
http://www.groworganic.com/citric-acid-lb.html
http://www.groworganic.com/citric-acid-lb.html
List your current nute mix.
- Thread starter VagPuncher
- Start date
6ml Micro
9ml Bloom
2ml Bloombastic
9ml Bloom
2ml Bloombastic
We grow in Botanicare coco 1-2 gal containers Ebb & Flo, hand water or Drip to waste
Veg:
15ml CNS17 grow, 5ml Sweet, 5ml Silica, 5ml Florablend.
Flower:
Week-1 15-20ml CNS17 Grow, 5ml Sweet, 5ml Silica, 5ml Florablend.
Week-2 10ml CNS17 grow, 10ml CNS17 bloom, 5ml Sweet, 5ml Silica, 5ml florablend.
Week-3 20ml CNS17 bloom, 5ml Sweet, 5ml Silica, 5ml florablend, .5ml snowstorm.
Week-4 20ml CNS17 bloom, 5ml Sweet, 5ml Silica, 5ml florablend, 1ml snowstorm.
Week-5 20ml CNS17 ripe, 5ml Sweet, 5ml Silica, 5ml florablend, 1ml snowstorm 2 tbls carboload per 50 gal.
Week-6 20ml CNS17 ripe, 5ml Sweet, 5ml Silica, 5ml florablend, 1ml snowstorm, 3 tbls Carboload per 50 gal.
Week-7 15ml cns17 ripe, 5ml Sweet, 5ml Silica, 5ml florablend, 1.5ml snowstorm or Purplemaxx, 5 tbls Carboload per 50 gal.
Week-8 10ml cns17 ripe, 5ml Sweet, 5ml Silica, 5ml Florablend, 2ml Purplemaxx, 5 tbls Carboload per 50 gal.
Week-9 6 tbs Carboload per 50 gal, 5ml Florablend.
I start with RO water 10-20 ppm. finish mix never goes above 800ppm. ph fluctuates between 5.5-5.8
We try to stick to the recipe. Sometimes I try something new usually with negative results. Ive had great results with just CNS17 Bloom with no additives.
1
I use a maybe 0.25 gram per 5 gallons, depending upon what is in the water. But that's only a guess, and I could be totally wrong. I just add a little, test pH, add a little more, until I get to ~5.8-6.2. I am not worried about pH in terms of its effects on media solution (aka "soil solution"; re alkalinity vs pH, etc.), but in terms of ion solubility while in rez and the simple act of adding citric acid and the impact on ions such as P, Fe, Ca, etc.
Citric acid can be a bit hygroscopic. It can clump in humid air, which makes using it a pain sometimes because a little can go a long way.
Since you use rockwool, maybe try using citric acid along with the pH down you currently use. Maybe use less of your current pH down, and finish lower pH with citric acid? That may lessen a possible pH swing that can become pronounced when only using citric acid (re rez pH of water culture). Or maybe use your current pH down initially, then add citric acid to bring pH down once it starts climbing after the fertilizer has been in the rez a few days (if it does climb)? That said, if you water has sufficient level of alkalinity, ex., 30-50 ppm, using only citric acid is worth a try; that way you can use more of it. It's also with a try using only citric acid if you use RO water, you may not see pH swings other people have seen in similar situations.
Sounds good, but I have not looked at the numbers. It does sound better than the PH/Lucas mix at 8/16, ex., lower P, high Ca, etc. I would however suggest adding a source of Si, it really does help the plant. I like Dyna-Gro "Pro-TeKt" because dollar for dollar you get more elemental Si from Pro-TeKt (silicon dioxide; SiO2) than other products like Dutch Master "Gold Range Silica" (monosilicic acid; H4O4Si) and the AN silicon product ("Rhino Skin"?). There are other brands for Si (as SiO2) that are better than Dyna-Gro, such as "AgiSil" from customhydronutrients ("]here; SiO2).
FWIW, the form of Si used by plants is "silicic acid" (H2O2Si, aka H2SiO2), and even though silicon dioxide (SiO2) will form into silicic acid, the Dutch Master product may be better than Dyna-Gro and AgiSil; the difference would be small, if it exists, I assume. That is, if the Dutch Master product does offer H4O4Si instead of SiO2. However, I think maybe Dutch Master is playing games with label laws and it's really SiO2. If Dutch Master is on the up-and-up, and there is really a different form of silicon in Dutch Master (re the plant available form of Si: silicic acid), the Dutch Mater product could offer higher efficacy, at least initially.
To get ~28 ppm of Si from Pro-TeKt one needs 2.5 ml per gallon, however, to get the same ~28 ppm of Si from Gold Range Silica one needs 7.5 ml per gallon! (IIRC, I did the math and that is what I remember finding; I will check my notes to see if I am correct)
Yup, that store is a great resource.
Oh yea,
Silicon dioxide (SiO2) is the form of silicon used by plants in the formation of trichomes, IIRC. Such plants include cannabis, which has trichomes that are highly silicified. I assume after plants absorb Si as silicic acid (H2O2Si, aka H2SiO2) they convert (some of the?) H2SiO2 into SiO2 (re removing the two hydrogen atoms), and SiO2 is used during formation of trichomes, cell walls, etc.
And IIRC monosilicic acid is also known as orthosilicic acid; as H4O4Si, aka H4SiO4.
Silicon dioxide (SiO2) is the form of silicon used by plants in the formation of trichomes, IIRC. Such plants include cannabis, which has trichomes that are highly silicified. I assume after plants absorb Si as silicic acid (H2O2Si, aka H2SiO2) they convert (some of the?) H2SiO2 into SiO2 (re removing the two hydrogen atoms), and SiO2 is used during formation of trichomes, cell walls, etc.
And IIRC monosilicic acid is also known as orthosilicic acid; as H4O4Si, aka H4SiO4.
Y
YosemiteSam
For what it is worth if you have a home brewing store in your area you can find citric acid (food grade). I pay $4.95 a pound at the local store.
Updates ... just in case anyone is interested
I worked on my chart a little and I hope some people can find these charts useful.
1. I just spent some time re-doing my fertilizer chart and I added heavy metals Pb, Hg, Cd, As; as well as Ni, Se and B. Mostly from General Hydroponics FloraMicro, thus I provided heavy metal data for my mix, other mixes and the PH/Lucas mix.
2. My last chart had a few wrong values and it was not complete; this chart should be fixed.
3. I ran out of Dyna-Gro Pro-TeKt and I had some Dutch Master Gold Range Silica a friend gave me, because I would not buy the silica product from Advanced Nutrients. So I made a second chart; one with Pro-TeKt and the second with Gold Range Silica, both offer Si ppm at comparable levels.
4. I used lab analysis from Washington State Department of Agriculture and Oregon Department of Agriculture, as well as from the product label (for volume and weight) and guaranteed analysis (refs below), as well as CannaStats web page with manual data entry for ~liter bottles (946 to ~1,100 ml) and some long math for Si, etc.
5. I dislike over use of EDTA chelate, when a fertilizer should instead use DTPA or better yet EDDHA, or amino acid. EDTA bonds too strongly to Ca and EDTA is the least bioavailable (it doesn't get absorbed) to the plant. Fertilizers that use EDTA when DTPA or even EDDHA could be used are low grade fertilizers. The only time a fertilizer should use EDTA, in my opinion, is for Fe, but also Fe should be cheated with DTPA and EDDHA, for the widest pH range in solution and strength of chelate bond.
6. The following figures are not exact, each case is different, the figures are approximate, hopefully a close approximate. I will update these charts again once I try to get some lab results back.
7. Below is my current test mix, the cells highlighted in blue (i.e., ppm per element). My current mix has slightly more P and K than my other mix (which has 2 ml less GH FloraBloom per gallon):
with Pro-TeKt:
with Gold Range Silica:
I worked on my chart a little and I hope some people can find these charts useful.
- Below is my current test mix, the concentrations per gallon for each product, in the blue color columns.
1. I just spent some time re-doing my fertilizer chart and I added heavy metals Pb, Hg, Cd, As; as well as Ni, Se and B. Mostly from General Hydroponics FloraMicro, thus I provided heavy metal data for my mix, other mixes and the PH/Lucas mix.
2. My last chart had a few wrong values and it was not complete; this chart should be fixed.
3. I ran out of Dyna-Gro Pro-TeKt and I had some Dutch Master Gold Range Silica a friend gave me, because I would not buy the silica product from Advanced Nutrients. So I made a second chart; one with Pro-TeKt and the second with Gold Range Silica, both offer Si ppm at comparable levels.
4. I used lab analysis from Washington State Department of Agriculture and Oregon Department of Agriculture, as well as from the product label (for volume and weight) and guaranteed analysis (refs below), as well as CannaStats web page with manual data entry for ~liter bottles (946 to ~1,100 ml) and some long math for Si, etc.
5. I dislike over use of EDTA chelate, when a fertilizer should instead use DTPA or better yet EDDHA, or amino acid. EDTA bonds too strongly to Ca and EDTA is the least bioavailable (it doesn't get absorbed) to the plant. Fertilizers that use EDTA when DTPA or even EDDHA could be used are low grade fertilizers. The only time a fertilizer should use EDTA, in my opinion, is for Fe, but also Fe should be cheated with DTPA and EDDHA, for the widest pH range in solution and strength of chelate bond.
6. The following figures are not exact, each case is different, the figures are approximate, hopefully a close approximate. I will update these charts again once I try to get some lab results back.
7. Below is my current test mix, the cells highlighted in blue (i.e., ppm per element). My current mix has slightly more P and K than my other mix (which has 2 ml less GH FloraBloom per gallon):
- General Hydroponics FloraGro: 5 ml/gal
- General Hydroponics FloraMicro: 5 ml/gal
- General Hydroponics FloraBloom: 7 ml/gal (other mix is 5 ml/gal)
- CalMag Plus: 5 ml/gal
- Pro-TeKt: 2.5 ml/gal
- --OR-- Dutch Master Silica: 7.5 ml/gal
- --OR-- other Si source at known Si application rate
- Epsom salt 0.5 gram/gal
- Boric acid 0.015 gram/gal (from stock solution, e.x., with 1.5 gram/gal)
- Citric acid to lower pH to goal pH
with Pro-TeKt:
with Gold Range Silica:
quantic_soul
Member
Spurr,
1. How often are you fertigating your plants typically with this formula? I realize that may not be completely consistent but maybe you could give an example of this weeks fertigation schedule.
2. I would love to see your input on how your setup with the heat exchangers (icebox i believe) are going for you. Specifically how well it has been working to keep temperatures at the desired levels. (Feel free to PM me this or point me to another thread if the info is there since I realize this is off topic for the thread.)
1. How often are you fertigating your plants typically with this formula? I realize that may not be completely consistent but maybe you could give an example of this weeks fertigation schedule.
2. I would love to see your input on how your setup with the heat exchangers (icebox i believe) are going for you. Specifically how well it has been working to keep temperatures at the desired levels. (Feel free to PM me this or point me to another thread if the info is there since I realize this is off topic for the thread.)
Like you wrote, it varies, but normally I fertigate, then use plain water (with or without some cool processed kelp extract, fulvic acid and humic acid), then fertigate, then use plain water (or mix of organics), and so on ...
I use 50/50 RO/tap water because I want some of the alkalinity from my tap water to help buffer pH in soilless solution and rhizosphere; as well as for a source of Cl (chlorine; even though my tap water uses chloramines). My tap water is good by itself, TDS is ~100-120 ppm and alkalinity is ~60-80 ppm (the ideal range), and pH is ~7.3-7.8. I use the 50% RO water to remove some of the elements from water, so what I give the plants is closer to what is listed in my charts.
I use plain water (or a mix of organics) in-between fertigations as a means to keep the soilless solution closer to my goal ppm range for elements, relative (and with respect to) my charts above. Basically, not fertigating every other watering helps keep the elements in the media more near my target range.
I apply water (either with fertilizer or without) every couple of days. This grow I am doing three things I either have never done, or do not normally do, when growing; and they have affected watering schedule, etc: (1) I am using "plant warrior" pots, they are air-pruning (to increase Ca uptake and lateral roots) hard plastic pots and they increase watering interval due to media drying faster (esp. core/bottom of media); (2) all plants are from seeds, so some use water faster than others (ex., days before others); (3) I am using a 'lighter' media than I normally use, i.e., plain-Jane SS#4.
I love them! I have been thinking about setting up an 8" to vortex fan to cool my living room and bed room; that is how much I like them.
The 1HP commercial model (white) chiller from EcoPlus is doing a fine job easily keeping the rez temp as cold as I want.
I will only post a bit about this here. I am going to start a few grow logs soon, once I get a new camera. One will be the setup and usage of a room like mine (optimizing nearly everything), incl. pics and info about using IceBox(es). I have two IceBoxes, the second is piggy-backed from the first; the first has the 'inlet line' of cold water from the rez and the second then provides the 'return line' of warm water to rez. The chiller is in a separate bedroom, in a closet (drilled holes through closet wall); the closet door must stay open and I vent the hot air from the second bedroom (where I sleep) outside because it has no odor because it has never been in the grow room. My bedroom stays about 75'F-80'F from A/C, and the grow room stays about 75'F-80'F from IceBoxes; even when the temp outside (above my well shaded) apartment is > 96'F many days in a row.
I am now cooling about 5,000+ BTUs of heat from a 1,000w hps, 1,000w e-ballast, 400w mh, 400w coir/coil ballast, along with all the radiant heat from lamps and from the air outside in my grow room. All with two IceBoxes (8" and 6") and one EcoPlus commercial model 1HP water chiller. The lamps are in a 5'x5' tent, with door open. I vent cooled air from Iceboxes directly into the tent. I also pull hotter air from top inside of the tent with a 4" inline fan.
I had an older setup with 600w Hortilux SuperHPS, E-ballast, 4'x4' tent, where only cooling power was from small A/C vent at floor of wall. The time of year was the same, very hot, over 95'F often. The hot air was vented directly outside and 'clean' air was pulled in from outside to the refelcor. In that sitation I couldn't keelp temps below 80'F, often below 85'F was hard. But now with the IceBox I have a similar setup, except with more heat, and my temps are perfect day and night.
I use the HydroInnovations IceBox thermostat/fan-speed-controller to control day/night temp. Its thermometer is pretty darn accurate as tested with a IR temp gun. I just set it to 75'F day and 70'F night.
I could easily use the water chiller to drop the rez below 50'F, down to ~40'F, IIRC. And then the grow room could get down to 75'F and lower; but the "Dew Point" prevents me from doing so. The dew point is the point at which the water hoses to/from the IceBoxes, as well as the IceBox radiator itself, will start producing lots of condensation. This has to due with the water temp (cold water), room temp and RH; ex., when one is too low (ex. water temp), or too high (ex. air temp or RH) lots of water droplets will fall onto the plants.
To find the lowest possible water temp I can use, without causing condensation, I use a dew point calculator and enter air temp along with RH; the solution is the water temp at which point condensation will form. So I try to cool the water to just above the dew point, which for my setup is (currently) ~61.5'F. And because the EcoPlus has a temperature differential of ~3'F (set at factory), I set my chiller thermostat to 63'F.
A general rule is 65'F and higher rez temp won't cause condensation; but also has less cooling capability.
See the largest pots in the back? The green and the orange pots?
I have used this recipe with absolutely fabulous results for years.
I use it on my plants from the time they have roots until they are flipped 12/12... Then I switch the Jack's Classic to GH Super Bloom, (12-55-6)...
I NEVER have to flush, never have deficiencies, and I seldom have pests anymore.
Nutrient/water schedule: By weight, as needed.
Nutrient recipe:
16 crushed Aspirin,
3/8 cup Brer Rabbit Molasses, (8Tbs)
8 tsp Jack's Classic All Purpose (20-20-20),
3 Tbls Epsom Salt,
8 Tbls Lilly Miller Vitamin B1 Plant Starter.
Mixed in 3 cups hot water (boiling hot) to dissolve solids.
Makes 1 quart concentrate. Stored in Refer.
Mixes 16 Gal. @ 1/4 cup per gallon.
This is ALL my plants ever get. Never straight water until 2 weeks before chop.
I have used this recipe with absolutely fabulous results for years.
I use it on my plants from the time they have roots until they are flipped 12/12... Then I switch the Jack's Classic to GH Super Bloom, (12-55-6)...
I NEVER have to flush, never have deficiencies, and I seldom have pests anymore.
Nutrient/water schedule: By weight, as needed.
Nutrient recipe:
16 crushed Aspirin,
3/8 cup Brer Rabbit Molasses, (8Tbs)
8 tsp Jack's Classic All Purpose (20-20-20),
3 Tbls Epsom Salt,
8 Tbls Lilly Miller Vitamin B1 Plant Starter.
Mixed in 3 cups hot water (boiling hot) to dissolve solids.
Makes 1 quart concentrate. Stored in Refer.
Mixes 16 Gal. @ 1/4 cup per gallon.
This is ALL my plants ever get. Never straight water until 2 weeks before chop.
I forgot to write, you should check out my two posts in the Featured Article by Lazyman, entitled "Keepin' it cool, man!". My posts are #34 and #35 on page 2, there is more info about sizing of chiller, dew point calculation, etc.: https://www.icmag.com/viewarticle.php?articleid=1477&page=2
Spurr
Holy shit! What a lot of stress over a plant. Do you guys really do all that? I used to measure this n that to the T but when I stopped it made no damn difference. The plant still grew exactly the same with the same yield bla bla bla
PS. Thanks for the tip on that sample extractor tool.
Holy shit! What a lot of stress over a plant. Do you guys really do all that? I used to measure this n that to the T but when I stopped it made no damn difference. The plant still grew exactly the same with the same yield bla bla bla
PS. Thanks for the tip on that sample extractor tool.
Hey,
LOL, yup. And the funny thing is I do much less than most people. I only make one mix and use it from veg to harvest. My mix looks complicated only because the way I am presenting it; it's really only 5 bottles and a bag of Epsom salt. About a teaspoon from each per gallon, and done.
I agree 100% that a conventional grower shouldn't worry about exact figures, it's all a range, and that is fine. With my charts I am able to fairly accurately find the values of a fertilizer mix; which is important to know but isn't something one can achieve, exactly, in the reservoir or media.
The main reason I have a created a mix like I did, and that I made such an in-depth chart, is for doing studies on conventional vs organic (biological organic) growing on various aspects of plant biology, physiology, morphology, etc., and crop yield, etc. To properly study those topics I need a well proven and scientifically sound fertilizer mix, which is easily reproducible. That is where the drive to make and test and share my mix comes from. I also have a mix using individual fertilizer salt, dry components, which is better in terms of fertilizer solution consistency.
I prefer growing with biological organics, but the conventional growing method is important to study and 'get right' to compare/contrast with organic methods using the scientific method.
@ Microbeman,
You're welcome, re the soil solution access tube(s). I called up and asked for the average pore diameter (in micron) of the ceramic interface but they claimed it is proprietary so they wouldn't tell me squat.
Oh yea, think of what I am doing with conventional fertilizers being akin to what Hogaland did for making his nutritive agar mix for plant tissue culture; but not on that scale, I'm not being a narcissist ... I just mean I am trying to make a standard mix that others can make and can be used in studies (when custom fertilizers are not made with dry salts).
You're welcome, re the soil solution access tube(s). I called up and asked for the average pore diameter (in micron) of the ceramic interface but they claimed it is proprietary so they wouldn't tell me squat.
Oh yea, think of what I am doing with conventional fertilizers being akin to what Hogaland did for making his nutritive agar mix for plant tissue culture; but not on that scale, I'm not being a narcissist ... I just mean I am trying to make a standard mix that others can make and can be used in studies (when custom fertilizers are not made with dry salts).
quantic_soul
Member
Thanks for the update spurr. That was my assumption for your feeding schedule. I just thought it would be good include that with the nute mixes on this page. Over fertilizing was never an issue for me but I met many newer growers who see a formula and assume they use that with every watering.
I use 50/50 RO water as well and have a similar alkalinity of my tap water. Before 50/50 RO I was filtering through peat to remove chlorine and chloramine. I was just debating with myself whether or not I should be doing something like adding Ascorbic Acid to remove those from the tap half of my water mix. Based on what you wrote I am assuming you feel they should be left alone for a source of chlorine despite the addition of chloramine as well.
Also really glad to hear about how well the IceBoxes are working. Looking forward to your grow logs that show pictures that setup. There really haven't been many threads that go into detail about icebox setups and success rates using them.
I use 50/50 RO water as well and have a similar alkalinity of my tap water. Before 50/50 RO I was filtering through peat to remove chlorine and chloramine. I was just debating with myself whether or not I should be doing something like adding Ascorbic Acid to remove those from the tap half of my water mix. Based on what you wrote I am assuming you feel they should be left alone for a source of chlorine despite the addition of chloramine as well.
Also really glad to hear about how well the IceBoxes are working. Looking forward to your grow logs that show pictures that setup. There really haven't been many threads that go into detail about icebox setups and success rates using them.
quantic_soul
Member
While using the internet at my friends how I noticed a bottle of AN Rhino Skin and wanted to make a point to him how diluted it was in fact. To get close to 28 ppm of Si with Rhino Skin one needs about 10 ml/gal.
Also 1 gal of Pro-Tekt costs nearly the same as 1 L Rhino Skin. Just thought I'd do the comparison for the AN people, not trying to bash anyone's nutrient choices.
NSPB: FLF...
and a bit of water.
dank.Frank
and a bit of water.
dank.Frank
