sugars and carbs for flowering??

[slausongardens]

i know that the plants produce sugars and there are products that help produce those sugars but a friend was telling me that u can add sugars like mollasses and other products to increase flowering.. and also carbs but i know about the carbs.

is this true, adding sugar products increase flowering??

or just products that help the plant produce sugars?

 

[Hindica]

Molasses is a carb, and yes it's true, it will help with bud production. I never grow without it. I like the Brer Rabbit brand.

 

[MtnLivin]

Grab yourself a gallon of the Earth Juice high brix molasses for $15.. Feed at 5ml a gallon and call it good!

 

[wdcf]

BLACKSTRAP MOLASSES!

 

[MtnLivin]

BLACKSTRAP MOLASSES!

The EJ high brix is the same as blackstrap, just plant food grade.. AND you save a shit load for only $15 a gallon...

 

[Butte_Creek]

bacteria feed off sugar. your increasing the bacteria population of microbes in your soil by using sugars/carbs, increasing microbial activity. plant roots already release exudates, the plants own sugars, to attract certain microbes and i guess essentially orchestrate the rhizosphere. the plants can communicate with the microbes through the use of their exudates, interesting stuff. i don't know how much molasses interferes with the plants own ideas of nutrition and microbes... or if too much molasses could cause an imbalance in the microbial community, i'm sure it would.

molasses, also might increase the brix of a plant. the higher the brix content of a plant, the healthier the plant and more resilient the plant is to stress, such as flowering and pests, which in the end would increase yield. i haven't seen a study that indicates molasses increases brix, but i wouldn't doubt it.
molasses contains some trace minerals, and low amounts of magnesium and potassium, as well as vitamin b6. trace minerals should help raise your brix. magnesium and potassium are known to help with flowering.

foliar spray your plants foliage with molasses to attract beneficial bacteria, as a preventative to pathogens. i know some people say tbsp. a gallon, i do a tsp.. you don't need to go overboard. i use molasses in my foliars and compost teas now.

 

[Stress_test]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^What they said...^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I use 1 Tbs/gallon from root to chop. If I was setting up to start a grow: Molasses is right there when I buy soil.

 

[SOTF420]

The Brer Rabbit brand is great like Hindica said. I think it's like 8% magnesium and 8% calcium with some Iron in it also. I use it in veg & flower at 1 tsp per gallon like every few waterings or whenever I feel like they want it. Good stuff and makes for big healthy plants!

 

[Butte_Creek]

^^
the cal-mag percentage listed on the back of the bottle under "nutrition facts" is not the amount contained in the product.
it is the percentage of "minimum daily requirements" for human nutrition based on a 2,000 calorie diet etc, the real amount of cal mag is pretty small.

but i agree, 1 tsp a gallon, every once in awhile when necessary.

 

[wdcf]

EDIT

 

[EastCoastMeds]

Is Black Strap pasteurized? If so it would really defeat the purpose.

I use Honey ES from Humboldt nutes. 1 tsp/gal in all flower feeds.

I don't add it so much for the plant as I do the soil. I consider it food for my microbes and we all know we like to have them around.

 

[seanseanhen]

Also adding a bit of humic and fulvi acid to your molasses mix will give you palpable results. When foliar feeding I use it at a 25-30% concentration of my watering mix and make sure the molasses are unsulfured.

 

[SOTF420]

I still don't understand why some people out there think "feeding" plants this stuff in foliar form does anything other than maybe feed bugs and cause build-up on your plants. Plants feed through and take up nutrients through their roots, that's how it works. Sure you can force some mobile elements into the leaf tissue with a foliar feed but I don'y recommend it unless it's life support for a sick plant and absolutely necessary. Just my honest fresh sliced onion on it so don't take it personally

 

[seanseanhen]

Not at all SOTF in fact your thread has inspired me to run that sweet sexy lady you’ve got going sometime maybe even later this year. My bad for not elaborating. I also use beneficial in conjunction with my aforementioned concoction, with a touch of home grown aloe, only during veg and very early flowering. Apart from it being an augmentation to my usual fertigation regime, I find it improves disease resistance especially since I’m outdoor under a glorious tropical sun.

(sorry for the hijack) Also I’d like your input on growing some sweet tooth in a tropical climate, high RH 65-80 and an avg day time temps of 31 and night time around 24.

I also like to foliar feed a percentage of P so as to keep fertigation ppm’s for P as low as possible, in turn keeping the microheard happy.

I also notice much better heat resistance when applying Si via foliar application. Also the application of Jasmonates for example requires foliar feeding.

 

[Butte_Creek]

sotf420-
molasses attracts beneficial bacteria/fungi to the leaf surface, the beneficial bacteria lives within the leaf surface and takes up residence, feeding off the sugars. bacteria and even fungi act as a preventative to pathogens who enter the plant through the leaf by creating a barrier of protection.

"Bacteria produce exudates of their own, and the slime they use to attach to surfaces traps pathogens. Sometimes, bacteria work in conjunction with fungi to form protective layers, not only around roots in the rhizosphere but on an equivalent area around leaf surfaces, the phyllosphere. Leaves produce exudates that attract microorganisms in exactly the same way roots do; these act as a barrier to invasion, preventing disease-causing organisms from entering the plant's system."
-Teaming with Microbes, organic gardeners guide to the soil food web



foliar sprays can be very effective at delivering nutrients to the plant and root zone, if you follow a few simple steps.
i forgot who mentioned it in the outdoor forums, but they said university field studies found that the application of fertilizer through foliar recorded fertilizer active in the root zone in like 30 minutes, i'll have to search for it...
foliars mixed with citric/ascorbic acid, pH'd to around 5.8, and even brought up to 125ish ORP via food grade hydrogen peroxide make them extremely effective. apply a spreader sticker like yucca extract or dish soap and your golden.
when applying foliar often/weekly i think it might be good for a plain h2o foliar every once in awhile to wash the leafs, at least that's what i do..

the more beneficials in the rhizosphere and on the leaf surface the less likely your plants will become infected by pathogens such as PM and fusarium, which is usually more of an issue outdoors. and since my soil is usually heavily amended i'd say the majority of my reasoning in foliar is disease/pest prevention, and environmental stress aid coming from the steroid saponins found in yucca and aloe.


i'm speaking mainly from an outdoor perspective. i don't do much indoor gardening. i would think foliars and molasses would be less important indoors, where the environment can be controlled and sterile.

 

[seanseanhen]

I’ve used soap as a surfactant only a few times, I much prefer fresh aloe. I also use shoots and roots from healthy bamboo plants in some of my home made inoculants. Citric acid is a staple for the soil (works well with my low P philosophy), but I’ve never used it in foliar application. What ppm’s do you use BC and will it not upset beneficials? Like in the brewing process.

 

[Butte_Creek]

yeah, i'll use yucca for a spreader, rarely some bio degradable soap.

citric or ascorbic acid @ 1/2 tsp per gallon is what i do. aids in uptake of foliar nutrients. also use it to pH. i know it also helps mineralize P in the rhizosphere, correct? i'll just be using it primarily in my foliars though.

i've never thrown citric acid in my compost tea brewer so i can't comment on that. shouldn't hurt beneficials on your leafs though... at a low amount i can't imagine it would harm any beneficials in your brewer, but don't take my word on it. for example, people pH their organic nutrient solutions with citric acid or lemon juice and i know it helps in the rhizosphere make P available.

 

[seanseanhen]

Thanks for the info; I'm yet to use ascorbic acid I will look into this matter further. I’ve stop fastidiously testing Ph unless it’s a first time grow, because I’ve never had a problem with my soil, it miraculously just self regulates; I suppose all the shoveling needs to pay off somewhere.

I would not hesitate to put a handful of my soil mix in my mouth and it always has a sweet floral undertone, if you can grow a few of these plants, you should they make unbelievable mulching material and lovely sweet teas that you can drink (though sometimes in lower concentrations) anantmula, hibiscus (red, orange, yellow), neem arjuna, katuwelbatu. There are tons more which I know only by their local name. Though sometimes when growing short flowering indicas I just use straight up ferts and don’t even touch it with my bare hands..

 

[spurr]

Is Black Strap pasteurized? If so it would really defeat the purpose.

No, not all sources; but many are, and many have preservatives. I source an organic unsulfured black strap molasses without any preservatives but it is pasteurized.

I have tested this molasses (it's important to get unsulfured black strap molasses) when making aerated compost tea, and trust me, the 'purpose' is not defeated, if the purpose is to 'feed' biota. Nor is the purpose defeated if the purpose is to try and offer some sugars, etc., to the plant.

That said, I am of the camp that trying to 'feed' the plant molasses (a' la carbs) is a waste; mostly because a healthy plant will produce all the sugars (carbs) it needs. About 25% (or so) of the sugars produced by the plant are normally excreted through roots as exudates, into the rhizosphere for biota.

That said, I do think unsulfured black strap molassses (and some other forms of simple-to-complex carbs) can benefit a plant, even a healthy one. That is why I add ~5 ml unsulfured black strap molasses per gallon every so often, to benefit the plant; as well as to stimulate biota.

This grow I am using conventional fertilizers, along with some organics such as fulvic acid, humic acid, cool processed kelp extract, aerated compost tea (using vermicast/vermicompost), vermicast/vermicompost extract (a' la "LCE"), etc. I find when using conventional growing (salt ferts), adding unsulfured black strap molasses seems more beneficial to the plant, than when using biological-organic growing.

 

[spurr]

Citric acid is a staple for the soil (works well with my low P philosophy), but I’ve never used it in foliar application. What ppm’s do you use BC and will it not upset beneficials? Like in the brewing process.

Citric acid is fine in foliar, but using ascorbic acid, or citric acid and ascorbic acid, is prob the best route to take. Addition of citric acid and/or ascorbic acid (vit. C) to foliar spray should not negativity affect biota in phyllosphere; if one doesn't add a ton of those acids. IIRC both acids, as well as other organic acids, are excreted from roots as exudates. Less than a 1/2 gram per gallon should be sufficient to reduce pH to an ideal range, unless source water is very high in pH or alkalinity.

The ideal pH range for foliar sprays is ~6.5-8 ... of course the solubility of ions (ex., metals) is a concern with pH > ~7.

Both citric acid and ascorbic acid help keep stomata open and stomatal conductance high. And in turn help keep rate of photosynthesis high as well as carbon fixation (Co2 intake) and Ca and B uptake and movement within plant, etc.

Ascorbic acid is an important counter-balance to the endogenous H2O2 produced by leafs during the day (re the antioxidative virtue of ascorbic acid). H2O2 will reduce openness of stomata, and ascorbic acid (i.e., endogenous, or exogenous as foliar) works to nullify the effect of endogenous H2O2. It is also suggest via scientific evidence, that ascorbic acid may work to increase rate of photosynthesis independent upon effect on stomatal openness. Ascorbic acid offers other benefits too as foliar application.

Citric acid is an important counter-balance to reduction in rate of photosynthesis (re "midday depression of photosynthesis" and "photoinhibition"), whereby citric acid decarboxylation
may be an important mechanism for alleviating said ills to keep rate of photosynthesis high. However, there is no definitive data AFAIK, that shows specifically citric acid decarboxylation keeps rate of photosynthesis high in the case of ex., photoinhibition. Citric acid also helps plants in other areas, such as helping to keep stomata open. Citric acid offers other benefits too as foliar application.

Below are a few references:

Increasing Tolerance to Ozone by Elevating Foliar Ascorbic Acid Confers Greater Protection against Ozone Than Increasing Avoidance
Zhong Chen and Daniel R. Gallie
Plant Physiology 138:1673-1689 (2005)


Boosting Vitamin C in Plants Can Help Reduce Smog Damage
University of California - Riverside (2005)
(full text) http://newsroom.ucr.edu/1119

• This article is about the published paper above, entitled "Increasing Tolerance to Ozone by Elevating Foliar Ascorbic Acid Confers Greater Protection against Ozone Than Increasing Avoidance".

The Ascorbic Acid Redox State Controls Guard Cell Signaling and Stomatal Movement
Zhong Chen and Daniel R. Gallie
The Plant Cell 16:1143-1162 (2004)


Stomatal behavior and components of the antioxidative system in coffee plants under water stress
Sidnei Deuner, José Donizeti Alves, Ilisandra Zanandrea, Patrícia de Fátima Pereira Goulart, Neidiquele Maria Silveira, Paôla de Castro Henrique, Alessandro Carlos Mesquita
Sci. agric. (Piracicaba, Braz.) vol.68 no.1 Piracicaba Jan./Feb. 2011


Light and Stomatal Metabolism
Madhusudana Rao and Louise E. Anderson
Plant Physiol. (1983) 71, 456-459


Organic Acid and Potassium Accumulation in Guard Cells during Stomatal Opening
William H. Outlaw and Oliver H. Lowry
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America
Vol. 74, No. 10 (Oct., 1977), pp. 4434-4438​