Do molasses and humic acid do the same thing?

[BongDaddy]

Well the title says it all. I have some molasses and I have some Royal Black (which contains humic acid). As I understand it, both can be used as chelating agents. Or am I not correct on that?

If I should only use one over another, which is preferable (in a Pro Mix growing medium)?

 

[tube dude]

I use both. Never had any problems. I grow all Organic and the humic acid makes a good root conditioner and I use the molsses to feed the micro heard in the soil.

 

[BongDaddy]

What nutes and medium do you use? I want to switch to organic and I think Botanicare's Pure Blend Pro line is the way I'm going to go.

 

[BlueGrassToker]

Blackstrap molasses provides micro-nutrients such as Mg, Fe, Cal.
PBP is a great one part feed. I would amend with the RB plus 1tsp/Gal blackstrap.
That mix would substitute for using Liquid Karma with the PBP.
LK is great stuff...but has become one of the most expensive amendments you can buy at about $30 a quart.

 

[tube dude]

As far as my medium goes, it changes a little with each grow. It is basicaly a mixture of peat, coco coir, bone meal, blood meal, dolomite, earthworm castings, epsoms salt, kelp, perlite and various guanos. The only thing I use for feeding that comes in a bottle is liquid Karma [which contains micro and macro nutes and humic acid], fulvic acid and molasses. If I do have to feed I bubble up some earthworm casting and guano tea. After each grow I remix and amend the soil according to the results of my last remix.

 

[BongDaddy]

BGT: Thanks for the tip. I found a hydro shop in town that has Botanicare products on sale right now so I was going to go pick some up. Good to know I can avoid buying the LK. Lots of people rave about it so I was strongly considering it. I'd prefer to KISS and not have to brew up a bunch of teas and such, but I think I can handle mixing in the RB and molasses.

The molasses I have isn't blackstrap, it's "Fancy". In the brand that's most available around here, it was the only variety that had no sulphates or sulphites. I bought it about a year ago. Now it looks like their blackstrap has "none added", but on the Data Sheet for their blackstrap, under the Ingredient List it mentions sulfites, which I find confusing because it implies that there might be a bit in it. Any thoughts on that?

http://www.crosbymolasses.com/sitemap.php

 

[grapeman]

From wiki.

"Humic acid is a principal component of humic substances, which are the major organic constituents of soil (humus), peat, coal, many upland streams, dystrophic lakes, and ocean water.[1] It is produced by biodegradation of dead organic matter. It is not a single acid; rather, it is a complex mixture of many different acids containing carboxyl and phenolate groups so that the mixture behaves functionally as a dibasic acid or, occasionally, as a tribasic acid. Humic acids can form complexes with ions that are commonly found in the environment. Humic and fulvic acids are commonly used as a soil supplement in agriculture, and less commonly as a human nutritional supplement. As a supplement, fulvic acid is found in a liquid form with colloidal minerals."

I use humic all the time on the farm and in the container pots. Humic/fulvic, especially fulvic sorta acts as a facilitator in making nutrients more obtainable to the plant.

While a great additive, I doubt molasses does that.

 

[BongDaddy]

hmm, I have some fulvic acid too (product called "Royal Gold"). I wonder if it would be beneficial to add that to the blackstrap/Black Gold mixture that's substituting for Liquid Karma.

 

[BlueGrassToker]

Humic/fulvic, especially fulvic sorta acts as a facilitator in making nutrients more obtainable to the plant.

While a great additive, I doubt molasses does that.

Molasses has been shown to act as a "chelating agent".

 

[pinecone]

I want to switch to organic and I think Botanicare's Pure Blend Pro line is the way I'm going to go.

I'm sure Pure Blend Pro is great, but it is not organic.

Molasses has been shown to act as a "chelating agent".

Where has it been shown to be a chelating agent? I don't think there is any scientific evidence for the claim.

Pine

 

[BlueGrassToker]

One final benefit molasses can provide to your field and gardens is its ability to work as a chelating agent. That is a scientific way of saying that molasses is one of those “magical” substances that can convert some chemical nutrients into a form that is easily available for critters and plants. Chelated minerals can be absorbed directly and remain available and stable in the soil. Rather than spend a lot of time and effort explaining the relationships between chelate and micronutrients, we are going to quote one of our favorite sources for explaining soil for scientific laymen.

“Micronutrients occur, in cells as well as in soil, as part of large, complex organic molecules in chelated form. The word chelate (pronounced “KEE-late”) comes from the Greek word for “claw,” which indicates how a single nutrient ion is held in the center of the larger molecule. The finely balanced interactions between micronutrients are complex and not fully understood. We do know that balance is crucial; any micronutrient, when present in excessive amounts, will become a poison, and certain poisonous elements, such as chlorine, are essential micronutrients.

For this reason natural, organic sources of micronutrients are the best means of supplying them to the soil; they are present in balanced quantities and not liable to be over applied through error or ignorance. When used in naturally cheated form, excess micronutrients will be locked up and prevented from disrupting soil balance.”

Molasses’ ability to act as a chelate explains its presence in organic stimulant products like Earth Juice Catalyst. Chelates are known for their ability to unlock the potential of fertilizers, and some smart biological farmers we know are using chelating agents (like Liquid Carbon) to allow them to make dramatic cuts in normal levels of fertilizer application.

One way to observe this reaction at work would be to mix up a solution of one part molasses to nine parts water and then soak an object which is coated with iron rust (like a simple nail for instance) in that solution for two weeks. The chelating action of the molasses will remove the mineral elements of the rust and hold them in that “claw shaped” molecule.

Of course, it is possible to use molasses as a foliar feed alone. It provides a significant boost in other essential minerals such as sulfur, iron and magnesium. Farming guides suggest application rates of between one quart to 2 gallons per acre depending on the target plant.

This is the best all natural reside product for breaking down reside for nutrients.

http://www.juneausales.com/?page_id=31

Plenty of evidence, pinecone. There are formal studies that have been done if you care to search.
In fact, molasses is one of the best products to use to actually see the chelating of iron. Science teachers have known about this for longer than most of us have lived.

fwiw...the nominclature of what is and what isn't organic is a picking of nits. FOlks often want to warn others about this detail when PBP gets mentioned. I am curious what is the detriment of using PBP? Is there any, and is it worth repeated heads ups?

 

[pinecone]

I am curious what is the detriment of using PBP?

There may be none. People seem to get great results with the stuff. I'm not saying that it is bad; just that it is not organic.

Is there any, and is it worth repeated heads ups?

Only so that BongDaddy would know that he isn't "switching to organic" by using PBP. I'm certainly not trying to start a fight about whether PBP is good or bad.

Pine

 

[Stress_test]

This is a good thread. A lot of people get a really confused and doubtful look on their faces when I suggest that they amend their nutrients with molasses.

 

[BongDaddy]

Only so that BongDaddy would know that he isn't "switching to organic" by using PBP. I'm certainly not trying to start a fight about whether PBP is good or bad.

Pine

I am aware that PBP isn't 100% organic. I haven't bought any yet, but I don't believe it has OMRI certification on the label. However, from all the reading I've done and everything I've learned about it, it's "organic enough" for me.

 

[BongDaddy]

This is a good thread. A lot of people get a really confused and doubtful look on their faces when I suggest that they amend their nutrients with molasses.

Hey Stress_test thanks for stopping by. Not to bring my own thread off topic, but I was wondering what your opinion would be on my question about fulvic acid and a Liquid Karma replacement.

 

[Stress_test]

Hey Stress_test thanks for stopping by. Not to bring my own thread off topic, but I was wondering what your opinion would be on my question about fulvic acid and a Liquid Karma replacement.

Ya know BD I haven't actually used either of them. I don't really "try" to grow organic. I was lucky when I first started growing and got my recipe from a friend who has tried just about everything at some point. So I haven't ever had to experiment with other nutes and additives. I mean it works fantastic so why change it right?

I do have some first hand experience with SuperThrive and it works but the recipe I use works better and for pennies the expense of SuperThrive.

I switched over to cloning pretty much entirely last fall and have a pardner who is my provider and does all the flowering, but he uses Superthrive, and used LK until recently. In March I resupplied him with plants for flowering and he asked about my feeding regiment and has stopped using LK completely, preferring my recipe with molasses. I think he still uses superthrive sometimes though because it is easier and less mess.

You pose an interesting question tho. I might take some time in the next day or so and do some more research on the ingredients of molasses, superthrive, LK and how they effect the production of fulvic acid.

Healthy plants will produce fulvic acid already but I wonder now if molasses or other additives also aid to increase it???

Certainly worth more studying...

 

[BongDaddy]

That would be really interesting to read about. I was really just curious about supplementing with fulvic acid, not the plants' production of it. In essence I was just wondering about a decent "recipe" for a LK replacement, since it's so pricey.

 

[RubeGoldberg]

I'm sure Pure Blend Pro is great, but it is not organic.



Where has it been shown to be a chelating agent? I don't think there is any scientific evidence for the claim.

Pine

I agree with this guy

Molasses is basically just a carbohydrate, it may have some micros but I honestly think their amounts are negligible.
Plants produce carbohydrates for themselves to use as well as expelling some for beneficial bacteria/fungi etc that would occur in its rootzone normally in nature. By providing refined carbohydrates to the rootzone, the plant will uptake some and use them for growth along with the rootzone being able to use it, this is especially true for growers who use mycorhizal products or bascilus bacteria strains



Humic acid (and fulvic for that matter) IS a natural chelating agent, as well as a bit of a wetting agent, so overall it helps create efficient uptake.


the two are VERY different from eachother

 

[BlueGrassToker]

No need to "think" or speculate about the nutritional value of molasses. Just about any of it will provide a spec sheet. The nutritional value of blackstrap is far from negligible.

There are differences in types of molasses and their values vary quite a bit. Also, the use of beet sugar molasses is not recommended as it can kill beneficial bacteria.

The only molasses that really should be considered for horticultural use is blackstrap from cane sugar.

 

[RubeGoldberg]

also avoiding anything with a high sulfur content, which some brands do have