mounting sub panel sideways? Also a ground question

[Marshall]

Getting ready to put in my sub panel and clean up my messy electrical job. In previous ops, I always grounded my sub panel to the main panels ground but I had a separate ground and neutral bus bar. In this op, my main panel has neutrals and grounds tied together.

Do I need to run a separate ground rod? or just run my ground to the common bus bar? My sub panel has separate neutral and ground bus bars

Also any reason why I couldn't mount the sub panel sideways for space reasons?

 

[the_extremist]

Keep the equipment grounding and neutral buses separate at your sub panel. Bond the case of the sub panel to the equipment grounding bus, probably via the big green screw that should be supplied with your sub panel. Run four wires from your service panel to the sub panel, one green or bare equipment ground, one white or grey neutral wire, and two ungrounded conductors of any other color, usually black and/or red.

If you're running Romex to the sub panel, make sure it's a four wire cable.

You only need a new ground rod if this sub panel is being set in a separate structure other than the building the service is in. Otherwise, your equipment ground will do a fine job of grounding your sub panel, as long as it is sized correctly.

You can mount the sub panel sideways only if it would orient all breakers in a position that would provide the off position for the switch on all breakers to point toward the floor and the on position toward the ceiling. Otherwise, the NEC wants you to install it as intended.

Good luck, stay safe, and when in doubt, hire an electrician.

 

[Marshall]

i have wired up quite a few sub panels and large grows so I am familiar with wiring. I know grounds and neutrals are supposed to be separate in sub panels. what threw me was the common ground/neutral in the service panel, never seen that before in my ops

So run a ground wire from the subs ground bus bar to the common bar in the service panel, and a wire from the the sub's bus bar to the green screw.

Ah ALL breakers, dont know if I have ever seen a panel like that, or I would just have to use one side. Is there any mechanical reason why the breakers have to be orientated like that? The breakers will still trip if sideways right? (sounds like a dumb question but I never would have thought HID bulbs had a vertical or horizontal orientation either)

Thanks

Now I got to find the time to do this

 

[Catchin1]

in your main panel, you will have a piece of SE cable....service entrance cable. It will have two legs and a grounding/neutral conductor. This will be stranded aluminum wire. On the main panel your grounds and neutrals will terminate on the same bars and be the same at that point.
Now when you go to add a sub panel into the equation you must run two legs with an insulated neutral with an isolated bare ground(SER) (Service Entrance Round) or romex with two legs, insulted neutral and isolated bare ground.. They are to be separate in the sub panel with the bond piece being taken out of the bus bar to bond the bar to the housing. Then you install your ground bar bonded to housing. At this point all neutrals get put on the unbonded neutral bar and the grounds all go onto the grounded/bonded ground bar that you installed

 

[the_extremist]

It's not a mechanical reason, it's for fire fighters, they are trained to switch all vertical oriented breakers toward the floor in order to de-energize in case of an electrical fire. The NEC is published by the National Fire Protection Association after all.

To clarify, your equipment ground (green or bare wire) will run from the equipment ground bus to the neutral bus at the service and you will need to bond the equipment ground bus at the sub panel to the case of the sub panel, with the big green screw or with an appropriately sized bonding jumper.

 

[Midnight]

Keep the equipment grounding and neutral buses separate at your sub panel. Bond the case of the sub panel to the equipment grounding bus, probably via the big green screw that should be supplied with your sub panel. Run four wires from your service panel to the sub panel, one green or bare equipment ground, one white or grey neutral wire, and two ungrounded conductors of any other color, usually black and/or red.

If you're running Romex to the sub panel, make sure it's a four wire cable.

You only need a new ground rod if this sub panel is being set in a separate structure other than the building the service is in. Otherwise, your equipment ground will do a fine job of grounding your sub panel, as long as it is sized correctly.

You can mount the sub panel sideways only if it would orient all breakers in a position that would provide the off position for the switch on all breakers to point toward the floor and the on position toward the ceiling. Otherwise, the NEC wants you to install it as intended.

Good luck, stay safe, and when in doubt, hire an electrician.

If you have a main panel as he described that has the neutral and ground wires tied together at the main panel then where do you tie in the ground on the main panel that you are going to send over to the sub panel?

I love this forum because I have to do something like this next week on an old ass 100 amp zensco panel. What I am trying to do is get 240 volts to a sub panel and then at the sub panel make one 240 v, 30 amp connection on one breaker, and then two 120v 15a breakers that are separate from one another. Also, since I will have a total of 60 amps should the wires from the main be 6/3?

 

[Catchin1]

I would

I would

I would take that piece of shit zinsco panel and see if I could toss it farther then the piece of shit federal pacific FPE panel I already tossed earlier this week.
Seriously man. Get rid of that piece of shit and go down to lowes and buy you a new Square D -QO or a new Cutler Hammer(tanner) sub panel and be safe. They are not that much.
The zinsco's do not trip either.


On your main panel the ground and the neutral are the same thing. It is just when you go beyond the main panel with a sub panel that you need the ground and neutral isolated. You tie both the neutral and the ground to the same place in main panel unless the (Main Panel) with breakers in it is a sub panel in which case you will have the Main Breaker for the sub panel mounted outside by the meter can.

 

[the_extremist]

^ This guy knows exactly what the fuck he's talking about. Zensco's start fires, brother. It's a matter of time. If you own the place, contact your insurance company and see if they will help you upgrade it; many will. If you rent the place, DEMAND that your landlord have it replaced. The breakers don't trip for shit and the connections to the busbar are also shit.

And to answer your question re: #6 wire, 60 amps will be okay only if all of your terminations are rated for 75*C. It will say so on the breakers/lugs of sub panel. If you are going to use anything other than brand new equipment where all terminations are rated at 75*C, overcurrent protection is to be sized based on the 60*C column in the code book. What this means to you is this : if all equipment is new and rated for 75*C, go with 60 amps. If not, go with 50. I recommend using new equipment and hiring an electrician, though I know this may not be possible. It's not hard to find a stoner electrician. We're everywhere, lol.

 

[Midnight]

Thanks guys, replacing the panel is not an option and I know that zensco's are fire hazards. The people have been warned by me a couple of times.

 

[Electrician]

Most residential zinsco panels have no main breaker they are bolt on type that are bused directly to the breaker. These panels are by far the biggest joke ever in the industry. They make the pushomatics look good!

 

[Midnight]

Most residential zinsco panels have no main breaker they are bolt on type that are bused directly to the breaker. These panels are by far the biggest joke ever in the industry. They make the pushomatics look good!

This one does have a 100 amp breaker at least.

 

[Marshall]

Here is the new sub panel. Ignore the romex on the bottom. I had to wire some things in temporarily to make it work till tomorrow cause i ran out of time


So I am assuming I want to bond the actual panel to the ground bar? But there does not seem to be a place to do this. There seems to be a screw to bond the neutral bar to the panel but that is not what I want is it?

In hindsight I am thinking, Should I have been looking for a threaded hole to put a grounding screw in?

This would to ground the actual panel should it ever get energized right

In a couple days I will posts pics of everything cleaned up. I wound up putting ballasts in an enclosure in the attic, pulled my balast to hood wires into the attic, and will be replacing all the romex around the walls with AC


BTW, If you go through a wall, and need to make a sharp 90 to run along the wall, how do you do that with armored cable? put boxes on all the 90's?






After this I have to install 12" ducts to cool my lights, and an attic fan to vent the attic

Doing this stuff right the first time is a lot easier but you got to do what you can do on a budget

 

[Marshall]

oh wow, that pic is UPSIDE down. The main lugs are at the top, and the orange romex is at the bottom, the ground bar is at the left

 

[the_extremist]

Your equipment ground bus is already bonded to the case of the panel with the screws that hold it in place. And yes, if the panel case ever ends up energized, your EGC will effectively ground it and trip your feeder breaker.

Also, take that bonding screw all the way out of the neutral bus and put it away somewhere. Don't leave it in because there is no guarantee the mfg. didn't thread it in a little bit.

With any type of cable, the NEC requires you maintain a radius when bending it. No kinks allowed. So if you absolutely can't maintain a nice radius (think the curvature of a medium sized pickle jar or so) then yes, junction boxes would be a good idea. Make sure you use the correct connecters and anti-short grommets when terminating in the boxes. Don't overfill your boxes either. Use nice steel 4" square boxes, deeper ones are better.

 

[Electrician]

Your equipment ground bus is already bonded to the case of the panel with the screws that hold it in place. And yes, if the panel case ever ends up energized, your EGC will effectively ground it and trip your feeder breaker.

Also, take that bonding screw all the way out of the neutral bus and put it away somewhere. Don't leave it in because there is no guarantee the mfg. didn't thread it in a little bit.

With any type of cable, the NEC requires you maintain a radius when bending it. No kinks allowed. So if you absolutely can't maintain a nice radius (think the curvature of a medium sized pickle jar or so) then yes, junction boxes would be a good idea. Make sure you use the correct connecters and anti-short grommets when terminating in the boxes. Don't overfill your boxes either. Use nice steel 4" square boxes, deeper ones are better.

All good advise there.

 

[CannaBunkerMan]

Looks like you guys already have this one covered!

 

[Catchin1]

Most residential zinsco panels have no main breaker they are bolt on type that are bused directly to the breaker. These panels are by far the biggest joke ever in the industry. They make the pushomatics look good!

oh there is nothing wrong with those old bulldog panels......LOL.......
You know the old GE's do not trip either..they had major problems with them in the 70's and 80's..........there are still a ton of them out there..........everytime I see a zinsco or a FPE I see 1800.00 bucks
That is what I used to get to change the 200amp panel the feeder cable and the meter can with two new ground rods and new #4 water pipe ground, mark it and duct seal it gone..........6-8 hrs.
I am retired now, but I still dollar signs for the jobs to be done.