THC saturation point of Iso?

[AVCS]

Hi IC experts,

This is my first post here. I have lurked for years. All the information shared in the Hash/Resin forum is what finally lured me in. There are some serious experts here!

My question; I do large runs of 99% isopropyl. I do not do second washes. I am only going for a high grade, pure end product.
When I wash 150 grams at a time, I use new, fresh, frozen Iso for each wash.
I got to thinking, can I run the Iso through once, filter it down so it is that lovely golden hue, and then use it again to wash new, fresh, frozen material? Will this degrade the THC already in the Iso? Is the Iso already maxed out as far as saturation? I only do 15-20 second washes so I feel like there is more room for THC. If this would work it will lower my costs and allow me to evaporate much less Iso = less time and work.
I have done a ton of searches on this and have come up empy. Anyone have any info? Thanks in advance for any advise!

AVCS

 

[juicepuddle]

Good question I wanna know this as well.

 

[Anything]

I've done quite a bit of researching these boards and others and have definitely never seen this question addressed...in for answers.

Also, I've never seen/heard of anyone doing ISO batches that big, how much ISO are you using per run?

 

[CannaBunkerMan]

Good question.

 

[GanjaPharma]

Subscribed!
i was just discussing this with a member of our collective. i took 1 oz of dried cured popcorn out of the freezer, washed for 20 seconds with 2 pints of cold 99%iso and got almost 3 grams of shatter.
took 1.5oz (from same big bag o popcorn) for the next run, same amount of iso and got....almost 3 grams of shatter.

so what gives? more herb doesnt equal more oil?
only answer that makes sense is that 2 pints of iso can only "hold" 3 grams of dissolved trichomes.
today i will repeat the test, using 1.5 oz of dry popcorn (same bag o popcorn) , but i will use 3 pints of iso. if the yield goes UP I will take that as my answer.

is anyone out there running more than a QP of dried cured herb per wash? thats where i am headed, but i need to get the iso volume issue answered first.

 

[GoldenSilence]

Subscribed!
i was just discussing this with a member of our collective. i took 1 oz of dried cured popcorn out of the freezer, washed for 20 seconds with 2 pints of cold 99%iso and got almost 3 grams of shatter.
took 1.5oz (from same big bag o popcorn) for the next run, same amount of iso and got....almost 3 grams of shatter.

so what gives? more herb doesnt equal more oil?
only answer that makes sense is that 2 pints of iso can only "hold" 3 grams of dissolved trichomes.
today i will repeat the test, using 1.5 oz of dry popcorn (same bag o popcorn) , but i will use 3 pints of iso. if the yield goes UP I will take that as my answer.

is anyone out there running more than a QP of dried cured herb per wash? thats where i am headed, but i need to get the iso volume issue answered first.

Subscribed

 

[AVCS]

OK, Here is what I have found;

I started doing 100+ gram runs about 8 months ago. At first I was using anywhere from 5-8 pints of frozen iso. Then, like GanjaPharma pointed out, I noticed when I started upping my material to 150 grams, using the same mixing containers, I was not getting better % yields, they were going down, even with slight increases in the amount of iso I was using.

My original thought was the iso just wasn't able to come in contact with enough material.

I broke my washes down into a series of 4 runs, started giving the material more space for my slow agitation, and my yields came back, leading me to the original question posted about saturation point.

Now i am really curious as to what is really going on.

GanjaPharma, please let me know what you find!

 

[AVCS]

soft, gentle, agitation, not slow! I only wash for for 15 -20 seconds. Sorry for the mis post!

 

[juicepuddle]

Subscribed!
i was just discussing this with a member of our collective. i took 1 oz of dried cured popcorn out of the freezer, washed for 20 seconds with 2 pints of cold 99%iso and got almost 3 grams of shatter.
took 1.5oz (from same big bag o popcorn) for the next run, same amount of iso and got....almost 3 grams of shatter.

so what gives? more herb doesnt equal more oil?
only answer that makes sense is that 2 pints of iso can only "hold" 3 grams of dissolved trichomes.
today i will repeat the test, using 1.5 oz of dry popcorn (same bag o popcorn) , but i will use 3 pints of iso. if the yield goes UP I will take that as my answer.

is anyone out there running more than a QP of dried cured herb per wash? thats where i am headed, but i need to get the iso volume issue answered first.

From what I have heard the smaller a run is the better the end product, aka if you put to much material in there might not be enough room for it all to move and let all the tichs fall off. Use less if its working better with your method, or get a larger container for shaking.

 

[jump117]

Quote from gunnaknow: Posted 09 June 2010 - 03:18 AM (click link)

I've read technical data stating that the solubility of THC and CBD in ethanol is 50 mM and 75 mM, respectively.
ISO is slightly less polar than ethanol, so the level of solubility is likely to be slightly greater in ISO.
However, let's use the figures for ethanol just to be on the safe side.

THC and CBD have a molar mass of 314, which means that 1 mole of each weighs 314 grams.
A millimole (mM) is 1000th of a mole per litre. So, that's 314/1000 = 0.314g per litre.

THC has a solubility in ethanol of 50 mM, so that's 0.314 x 50 = 15.7g per litre of ethanol.
CBD has a solubility of 75 mM, which is 50% more, so that's 23.55g per litre of ethanol.

Another source states that the solubility for CBD in ethanol is 36mg/ml (36g/litre), which is 53% more than the first source states.
This could be partly down to different extraction temperatures being used.
It would probably be safer to go with the lower figure though and just use slightly more solvent.

Let's just imagine for a moment that your trim contained somewhere in the region of 10% THC and that it was a fairly low CBD strain, as most are these days.
If we used the first figure of 15.7g per litre, then 1 litre would be enough to dissolve all of the THC in 157g of trim containing 10% THC.
However, other substances that were extracted would likely lower this figure.
On the other hand, you're never going to extract all of the THC present with a quick wash anyway, so these two factors should cancel eachother out somewhat.
The good news is that even fairly compacted trim (dried) only weighs about 50g per litre, let alone 157g.
So 1 litre ethanol/ISO would be more than enough for a litre of fine trim, containing 10% THC.
Due to the fact that most of the volume of trim is taken up by air, just covering the trim should be enough for a good ratio of trim to ISO.
I hope that this helps.

gunna
This post has been edited by gunnaknow: 09 June 2010 - 04:11 AM EndQuote

 

[thighrod]

Great thoughts and theory in this thread...and they say weed makes people stupid. Nice analysis and use of scientific method.

 

[gunnaknow]

It's always nice to be quoted by another grower. Thanks Jump!

 

[Lazyman]

I wash 3-6 pounds of trim per batch, with 3-5 gallons of alcohol. Biggest yield was out of 6#, i got 240 grams of very good oil. When most of the alcohol had evaporated that entire yield was still dissolved in just a couple cups of alcohol, though at 190*F. I think temp has a lot to do with saturation rates. I find that on big batches you gotta use another gallon or two of clean alcohol for a rinse. Monitor the output color, it should go from amber to clear, if its still amber keep rinsing, if it turns green youre done.

 

[AVCS]

Thanks Gunna! Thanks Jump!

That is exactly what I have been looking for. So following this logic, I could take 12.5 grams and run it in a big container with lots of room with one liter of Iso, filter this then use the same liter again 3 more times to do 50 grams total. correct? Just off the top off my head, I feel like 1 liter would cover and saturate 12.5 grams perfectly.

let me know your thoughts. Thanks again for all the input!

AVCS

 

[Gray Wolf]

My question; can I run the Iso through once, filter it down so it is that lovely golden hue, and then use it again to wash new, fresh, frozen material? Will this degrade the THC already in the Iso? Is the Iso already maxed out as far as saturation? I only do 15-20 second washes so I feel like there is more room for THC. If this would work it will lower my costs and allow me to evaporate much less Iso = less time and work.
I have done a ton of searches on this and have come up empy. Anyone have any info? Thanks in advance for any advise!

AVCS

Yes you can! What brother Jump said on counting the moles.

I can see no reason it would degrade the THC at freezing temperatures.

This issue is not as much how much can the alcohol hold at saturation point, as what happens to the desolution rate as it loads up. The same soak time will extract less new material and added time exposes you to more water solubles. Maybe an experiment is called for to establish the practical limits?

Since you aren't doing gleaning washes, using more saturated alcohol will increase your losses to the plant material, which will still be soaked.

 

[gunnaknow]

I wash 3-6 pounds of trim per batch, with 3-5 gallons of alcohol.

Hey Lazyman, you're probably within the theoretical boundary, if the average amount of trim that you use is 4.5 lbs and the average amount of alcohol is 4 gallons.

4.5 lb x 454g = 2043g
4 gallons x 3.79 = 15.15 liters

2043 / 15.15 = 134.85g per liter

That's within the 157g per liter that I suggested as the theoretical limit, based on the trim containing 10%. Most trim probably isn't as high as 10% THC but it might occasionally be that high and 10 is a nice round figure to work with. As I was quoted earlier, other dissolved substances will lower the amount of THC that can be dissolved but a quick wash is never going to extract all of the THC present, so we probably don't need to lower the theoretical limit of 157g per liter. Especially when you consider the fact that THC is likely to be even more soluble in ISO than ethanol and the figures are based on ethanol. So yeah, you seem to be using a good ratio of trim to alcohol.

gunna

 

[jump117]

Question on PETE

Question on PETE

Hi gunnaknow! You're a man of encyclopedic knowledge.
What is known about the interaction of butane with PET, PETE, Polyethylene terephthalate ? Plz

 

[gunnaknow]

Hey Jump, thanks for the kind words. PET has good resistance to butane but exactly how good is hard to know without technical data beyond the scope of most chemical resistance charts. I'd recommend opting for borosilicate glass/pyrex or stainless steel when you have a choice.

Scroll about 1/3 of the way down the page for butane.

http://www.plasticseurope.org/Docum...hemicalResistanceofPET-20050303-003-EN-v1.pdf

 

[CannaBunkerMan]

I always do multiple washes with fresh ISO to avoid the possibility of losing some oil to critical saturation losses. Even if you can only capture 50% with each wash, that's almost 90% after 3 washes.

 

[jump117]

Probably a little more if last wash was washed from decarboxilated, it dissolves better.