Clone of a Clone of a... Degredation Experiment
- Thread starter Regulator Dave
- Start date
Some are as good as they were 20 years ago I know that from experience. It would be interesting to see a study on telomeres and telomerase activity in cannabis.
Just looking at this 50yo spruce out the window and imagining it firing up the telomerase enzymes every year as it flowers fixing it's telomerers and thus making the plant "young" again for another year. If you could perform a TRAP assay for telemerase on a few cannabis strains I bet you could determine which ones will outlast the others based on telomerase activity....The spruce is still growing just as vigorously(perhaps more) as it did when planted in the 50's.
HM
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Hempsmoke
Active member
@highonmt
I dont think you can compare a tree to cannabis.
In the nature the lifecycle of a cannabis plant is completed within 12 months (actually even less) and at the end the plant just dies.
Besides that the metabolism of cannabis is much faster than the metabolism of a spruce.
Or does the spruce grow 20cm or more in a week?
Dont think so.
@beta
Would like to give you some evidence but atm the oldest clone ive got is about 1 years old hehe
so lets talk again in 29 years so we can accept or trash my theory
I dont think you can compare a tree to cannabis.
In the nature the lifecycle of a cannabis plant is completed within 12 months (actually even less) and at the end the plant just dies.
Besides that the metabolism of cannabis is much faster than the metabolism of a spruce.
Or does the spruce grow 20cm or more in a week?
Dont think so.
@beta
Would like to give you some evidence but atm the oldest clone ive got is about 1 years old hehe
so lets talk again in 29 years so we can accept or trash my theory
@beta Would like to give you some evidence but atm the oldest clone ive got is about 1 years old hehe
so lets talk again in 29 years so we can accept or trash my theory
Not knowing is fine. Making an absolute claim without evidence, unfortunately, is not.
Hempsmoke
Active member
Hey mate, its not me vs anyone else,
its just what i think has the most impact on the performance of the plant and nobody has to agree with my opinion/ theory.
I never claimed its the one and only truth so stay cool
Btw just out of curiosity what does sams experience say?^^
kstampy
Member
Hey mate, its not me vs anyone else,
its just what i think has the most impact on the performance of the plant and nobody has to agree with my opinion/ theory.
I never claimed its the one and only truth so stay cool
Btw just out of curiosity what does sams experience say?^^
Read the thread.
Hey mate, its not me vs anyone else,
its just what i think has the most impact on the performance of the plant and nobody has to agree with my opinion/ theory.
I never claimed its the one and only truth so stay cool
Btw just out of curiosity what does sams experience say?^^
No its not 'You vs the World', its you, your 7 other posts, and your lack of explanation as to why you feel the way you do, VS what the innovator of SKUNK WEED has experienced.
You have NO history and Sam is a legend.
I see it as similar as to telling Jesus his thoughts on christianity are skewed.
How did you know? :>
PS: Jebus is my next door neighbor. People keep mistaking him for Jesus and you would not believe the mail. He mows my lawn for me so I can say 'Jebus cuts my grass!'
[
I see it as similar as to telling Jesus his thoughts on christianity are skewed.[/quote]
pretty sure everyones thoughts of christianity are skewed when the bible has been rewritten how many hundreds of times in 2000 or so years? Allot of people who rewrote may have left out some very important information that they didnt want others to know... Either way, what do i know! i'm 100% Atheist!
I see it as similar as to telling Jesus his thoughts on christianity are skewed.[/quote]
pretty sure everyones thoughts of christianity are skewed when the bible has been rewritten how many hundreds of times in 2000 or so years? Allot of people who rewrote may have left out some very important information that they didnt want others to know... Either way, what do i know! i'm 100% Atheist!
cannabis is a hormone-induced flowering plant. not only will she grow 20cm( try 40-50cm) a week, she will do so for a span of 20 years or more, if uninterrupted light regimens are her cycle.
a clone only degrades after each successive generation. the analogy is; no matter how astounding the best copy machine is, the last copy of 500-1000 isnt going to duplicate the first. the discrepancies are minor, but they're there.
rize up
a clone only degrades after each successive generation. the analogy is; no matter how astounding the best copy machine is, the last copy of 500-1000 isnt going to duplicate the first. the discrepancies are minor, but they're there.
rize up
The navel orange was the PERFECT example (apples too).a clone only degrades after each successive generation. the analogy is; no matter how astounding the best copy machine is, the last copy of 500-1000 isnt going to duplicate the first. the discrepancies are minor, but they're there.
rize up
Wikipedia said:
The navel orange is a CUTTING, just like KKSC, DJ BBmale, or [Insert 'elite' HERE]; the 'navel orange cutting' produces seedless fruit, easy to peel skin, large fruits, good yields, and accord it wiki, only decent flavored juice (i like Valencia).
Point is, it did this in the 1820's, and it does it now. The brix reading of the fruit hasnt changed over the years, there is no complaint about a 'loss of quality' navel oranges.
The genetic 'degrade' may be 0.00000000000001%, it's impossible for the genetics to 'upgrade' (leaving only one direction), however its effects go undocumented across many many many plant species. Were not talking about a MAN MADE (80's) copy machine.
Granny Apple FTW!
@highonmt
I dont think you can compare a tree to cannabis.
In the nature the lifecycle of a cannabis plant is completed within 12 months (actually even less) and at the end the plant just dies.
Besides that the metabolism of cannabis is much faster than the metabolism of a spruce.
Or does the spruce grow 20cm or more in a week?
Dont think so.
@beta
Would like to give you some evidence but atm the oldest clone ive got is about 1 years old hehe
so lets talk again in 29 years so we can accept or trash my theory
Umm I agree they are quite different, but what is your point? I was just looking at the spruce tree and thinking about the process whereby the spruce is able to drink from the fountain of youth each year by enzyme activation in flowering essentially becoming a teenager each and every year.
Cannabis has a telomerase enzyme system as do most plants; when and to what degree this system is active will shed more light on the process of clone degradation. The woody portions of a plant are quite dead and it is only a thin puter layer of continuously regenerating cells that keeps a plant going...I tend to side with Sam S these plants when treated well will continue to produce identical clones generation after generation apparently ad infinitum. In order to do this they at some stage must lengthen their telomeres...failing this leads to old age. Makes me envy that old spruce a bit.
HM
B
Buffoonman
My friend quoted ed rosenthal as saying clones get less potent over time. Imagine how strong the cheese would have been back in 87 if it had gotten weaker. I read Mosca Negra say with his C99 there was an exponential leap in potency each new generation. Maybe it goes up to a peak then slowly falls. You would think though if it were gentically identical it would stay the same. Who knows, not I said the cat.
Maybe theres a gene in cannabis that switches on with age as with people. So it stays OK for a while then gets old and dies. What did Shantibaba mean when he said his G13 lost its vigour to live. This og kush gets you thinking.
Sorry to waffle but heres another interesting quote:-
The question of genetic drift over many generations is not unreasonable. Mutations occur on a regular basis in asexual as well as sexual reproduction. Genetic researcher Barbara McClintock has discovered that genes jump around on chromosomes, and recent studies have proved that they also jump from plant to plant. Any change in gene patterns, whether the gene is on the chromosome or has broken apart and lost or gained material, results in changes in the plant. Thus the variety can gradually shift over a period of time.
Clones propagated over many generations along separate lines will look slightly different. Perhaps the answer is to preserve the mother plant for as long as possible ? but even a single plant will exhibit some drift. Remember that during sexual reproduction mutations are more likely to occur than during the asexual reproductive process of cloning.
Maybe theres a gene in cannabis that switches on with age as with people. So it stays OK for a while then gets old and dies. What did Shantibaba mean when he said his G13 lost its vigour to live. This og kush gets you thinking.
Sorry to waffle but heres another interesting quote:-
The question of genetic drift over many generations is not unreasonable. Mutations occur on a regular basis in asexual as well as sexual reproduction. Genetic researcher Barbara McClintock has discovered that genes jump around on chromosomes, and recent studies have proved that they also jump from plant to plant. Any change in gene patterns, whether the gene is on the chromosome or has broken apart and lost or gained material, results in changes in the plant. Thus the variety can gradually shift over a period of time.
Clones propagated over many generations along separate lines will look slightly different. Perhaps the answer is to preserve the mother plant for as long as possible ? but even a single plant will exhibit some drift. Remember that during sexual reproduction mutations are more likely to occur than during the asexual reproductive process of cloning.
Here is a quote regarding telomere shortening,
"Telomeres shorten in part because of the end replication problem that is exhibited during DNA replication in eukaryotes only. Because DNA replication does not begin at either end of the DNA strand, but starts in the center, and considering that all known DNA polymerases move in the 5' to 3' direction, one finds a leading and a lagging strand on the DNA molecule being replicated.
On the leading strand, DNA polymerase can make a complementary DNA strand without any difficulty because it goes from 5' to 3'. However, there is a problem going in the other direction on the lagging strand. To counter this, short sequences of RNA acting as primers attach to the lagging strand a short distance ahead of where the initiation site was. The DNA polymerase can start replication at that point and go to the end of the initiation site. This causes the formation of Okazaki fragments. More RNA primers attach further on the DNA strand and DNA polymerase comes along and continues to make a new DNA strand.
Eventually, the last RNA primer attaches, and DNA polymerase, RNA nuclease, and DNA ligase come along to convert the RNA (of the primers) to DNA and to seal the gaps in between the Okazaki fragments. But, in order to change RNA to DNA, there must be another DNA strand in front of the RNA primer. This happens at all the sites of the lagging strand, but it does not happen at the end where the last RNA primer is attached. Ultimately, that RNA is destroyed by enzymes that degrade any RNA left on the DNA. Thus, a section of the telomere is lost during each cycle of replication at the 5' end of the lagging strand.
However, in vitro studies (von Zglinicki et al. 1995, 2000) have shown that telomeres are highly susceptible to oxidative stress. Telomere shortening due to free radicals explains the difference between the estimated loss per division because of the end-replication problem (ca. 20 bp) and actual telomere shortening rates (50-100 bp), and has a greater absolute impact on telomere length than shortening caused by the end-replication problem."
The last paragraph really explains a lot of the "loss of vigor" read "premature aging" that is seen in stressed critters be they animal or plant. Stress shortens telomeres and causes the degradation of the cell lines that make up the cannabis plant. IMO it is this type of "genetic damage" that is responsible for degradation seen by some growers. As with all organisms some individuals will have a greater tolerance for stress than others.
The cell lines of a cloned sheep will be the age of the mother that was cloned, so the clone of the cloned sheep will be "old" at conception. Cannabis and most other plants are equipped with an enzyme system that repairs the telomeres and prevents cell line degradation by restoring telomere length. Thus the cannabis clone of a clone of a clone is still the same "age" as the mother plant unless it was subjected to stress
"Telomeres shorten in part because of the end replication problem that is exhibited during DNA replication in eukaryotes only. Because DNA replication does not begin at either end of the DNA strand, but starts in the center, and considering that all known DNA polymerases move in the 5' to 3' direction, one finds a leading and a lagging strand on the DNA molecule being replicated.
On the leading strand, DNA polymerase can make a complementary DNA strand without any difficulty because it goes from 5' to 3'. However, there is a problem going in the other direction on the lagging strand. To counter this, short sequences of RNA acting as primers attach to the lagging strand a short distance ahead of where the initiation site was. The DNA polymerase can start replication at that point and go to the end of the initiation site. This causes the formation of Okazaki fragments. More RNA primers attach further on the DNA strand and DNA polymerase comes along and continues to make a new DNA strand.
Eventually, the last RNA primer attaches, and DNA polymerase, RNA nuclease, and DNA ligase come along to convert the RNA (of the primers) to DNA and to seal the gaps in between the Okazaki fragments. But, in order to change RNA to DNA, there must be another DNA strand in front of the RNA primer. This happens at all the sites of the lagging strand, but it does not happen at the end where the last RNA primer is attached. Ultimately, that RNA is destroyed by enzymes that degrade any RNA left on the DNA. Thus, a section of the telomere is lost during each cycle of replication at the 5' end of the lagging strand.
However, in vitro studies (von Zglinicki et al. 1995, 2000) have shown that telomeres are highly susceptible to oxidative stress. Telomere shortening due to free radicals explains the difference between the estimated loss per division because of the end-replication problem (ca. 20 bp) and actual telomere shortening rates (50-100 bp), and has a greater absolute impact on telomere length than shortening caused by the end-replication problem."
The last paragraph really explains a lot of the "loss of vigor" read "premature aging" that is seen in stressed critters be they animal or plant. Stress shortens telomeres and causes the degradation of the cell lines that make up the cannabis plant. IMO it is this type of "genetic damage" that is responsible for degradation seen by some growers. As with all organisms some individuals will have a greater tolerance for stress than others.
The cell lines of a cloned sheep will be the age of the mother that was cloned, so the clone of the cloned sheep will be "old" at conception. Cannabis and most other plants are equipped with an enzyme system that repairs the telomeres and prevents cell line degradation by restoring telomere length. Thus the cannabis clone of a clone of a clone is still the same "age" as the mother plant unless it was subjected to stress
Ya, like I said. Right?
