Heavy Metals in Fertilizers

[BongRipkenJR.]

I have to put this out there. Canna is a clean nute, but they dont divulge all of their ingredients. So those are misleading. Also I have found that I have to use very high ppms to get the most out of my Canna. Next on my list is Dutch Master, but canna isnt all its cracked up to be.

 

[Space Case]

Heavy Metals in Fertilizers

My beef with Canna is it gets shipped all the way from Holland in clear bottles, so the nutes get exposed to sunlight, UV, etc. For what you pay, it should he in an opaque bottle, like House and Garden.

 

[BongRipkenJR.]

My canna nutes came in dark green square jugs

 

[BasementBreeder]

ScrubNinja,

So if the maxibloom label says 1 to 2 teaspoons per gallon, what rate did they use for the test to obtain the results they give?

I think you misunderstood the paragraph from the WSDA site. The "Total Metals in Product" is the percentage of metals in the product, similar to the npk numbers. It has no basis on the application rate. The paragraph is saying that you need to consider the application rate when comparing the amount of metals received from two products.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Hiya Basement. Hmmmm, I would have to disagree there, friend. For each product it says above it:

The Washington standard for metals is based on the concentration of metals in the product and the application rate of the product.

So how could you arrive at

The "Total Metals in Product" is the percentage of metals in the product, similar to the npk numbers. It has no basis on the application rate.

when they clearly say their figures are"based on the concentration of metals in the product and the application rate of the product.". Furthermore, the heavy metals we are concerned with are actually in PPMs (the ones on the right side of each product page).

I dunno man, I kind of read that as "we mixed it in water according to the label directions, and tested the PPMs of the heavy metals, and here you go".

And that if I added twice what the label says, I would have twice the PPMs listed on WSDA site in my nutrient solution. Would be interested what others think. Anyone in the US feel like giving them a call?

Kind of related: I didn't want to spoil the fun on the various maxibloom 1tsp/gallon threads, but no matter which way we read the figures, maxibloom is not "clean" and using 1tsp per gallon is far more than necessary in coco at least. That rate gave me an EC around 1.9. My best plant ever, outdoors in great full sun conditions and great temps etc was fed regularly at 1.4 ec, and once or twice at say 1.6 when it needed it. OK so it was with DM nutes, but if you read around, less is definitely best, and 1.4 to 1.5 seems a common strength and is what I was taught when starting out with coco a few years ago. I certainly had no probs using the maxi range in coco @ 1.4 for a month or two although my grow ended early.

And by doing so I've saved money and cut my exposure to heavy metals by what, just under a third? Furthermore, if I use clean supplements, I've reduced the bad metals even further. Peace.

Edit: Just to support my case on the 1tsp/gal thing, using GH Flora, we have Lucas formula - 8ml + 16 ml. Lucas was in "growrox" which I presume is hydroton, which does need a high ec.

H3ad formula, tres popular in coco, and designed for it specifically, uses 6ml + 9 ml using the same product. Near enough to a third less.

 

[BasementBreeder]

SN,

I'll admit I could be wrong. I assumed the "Washington standard for metals" was some regulation concerning the amount of heavy metals that can be allowed per application. My main reasoning for this is the amount of Mo and Zn in the maxibloom. If it was based on dosage, then it's delivering 11 and 114 ppm, respectively. I don't see how this could be the case as this amount would certainly cause toxicity.

Also, the figures are not based on the application rate; it's the "Washington standard for metals" (whatever that is) that is based on the application rate.

edit: here is a link concerning registering your fertilizer with Washington. I feel like points 1a and 3 support my interpretation.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Interesting. I could totally be wrong too, lol. It's just so ambiguously worded! Not sure what to think now.

So do I understand that your take is that they would test the dry concentrated maxibloom and that is the figures they give?

The following is from the Levels Of Non Nutritive Substances 2009 PDF

Fertilizer Registration Requirements
As of November 1, 2009, there are 5,387 fertilizers registered for distribution in Washington.
As part of the information submitted for registration, the registrant must submit a metals
analysis for each of its products. The metals that must be analyzed are: arsenic, cadmium,
cobalt, lead, mercury, molybdenum, nickel, selenium, and zinc. Specific preparation and
analysis methods are required. The levels reported by the company are compared against the
Washington standards for these metals. If the levels exceed the standard for any of the nine
metals, the product cannot be registered for distribution in Washington.

All micronutrient and waste-derived fertilizers must go through an additional review by the
Department of Ecology before they can be registered. Ecology consults with the Department
of Health and the Department of Labor and Industries as part of its review process. Waste-
derived fertilizers range from cement kiln dust (used as a liming agent) and electric arc
furnace dust (a source of zinc) to animal manure and bone meal.

All fertilizers registered by WSDA meet the Washington standards for metals, with the vast
majority meeting the standards by a wide margin. When reviewing new products, WSDA
occasionally finds one with metals levels and application rates that cause it to exceed the
standards. In most cases, the company is able to address the problem by (1) using different
source materials (with lower metals levels) in the product, and/or (2) lowering the rate of
application on the label.

Not that it's any less confusing, but I'm beginning to think you're correct.

 

[thefatman]

Nobody is "spreading rumors because they don't like H&G." That is unless Humboldt Wholesale believes the Washington State Department of Agriculture doesn't like them. The response from HW makes no sense. The heavy metal analysis is is measured in ppm and therefore allows consumers to make valid comparisons between similar products.

Most liquid fertlizers are concentrated to the limits of solubility because liquid is heavy and therefore expensive to ship. The notion that H&G is more "concentrated" than GH , Canna, or anyone else is basically a marketing pitch.

Nearly all hydro nutrient manafacturers concentrate to the industry standard of 100X. That is far from the limits of solubility. Most nutrient formulas can be concentrated up to 400X before any solubility limits are met. In general heavy metals content is not an issue as registration in Washington, Florida or California is denied if set standards are exceeded.

 

[BerndV]

Nearly all hydro nutrient manafacturers concentrate to the industry standard of 100X. That is far from the limits of solubility. Most nutrient formulas can be concentrated up to 400X before any solubility limits are met.

This is nonsense. Solubility limits are contingent upon the individual chemical constituents and their interactions as well as being a function of the solution temperature.

 

[Bud Bug]

My canna nutes came in dark green square jugs

Thats the 5L jugs, the 1l jugs are see through clear/'opaque. The only no clear one are in the Bio line.

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

You can limit the uptake of heavy metals by wearing your tinfoil hats backwards.

Allow me to cut and paste from wsda's website

VIGORO SUPER GREEN LAWN FERTILIZER 35-0-5 Date Sampled: 1 /28/2010
Arsenic
1.92
Cadmium
0.6
Cobalt
1
Lead
15.2
Molymdemum
41.3
Nickle
51.8
Selenium
0.0536
Zinc
< < < 863

Better not try to grow any tomatos or peppers near the evil bastard that used this on his lawn. Your children will sprout two heads and smoke twice the amount of weed.

Arrrrrggggghhhhhh!!!!!!

I love the fact a government agengy cant spell nickel or molybdenum, but they advocate what is safe.

 

[ScrubNinja]

You can limit our exposure to retarded posts by not making them.

http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Elements-Toxic/

hurrdurr

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

Scrub,
I know more about heavy metals, toxicology, and environmental impications than the collective wisdom here. Your link is something my 12 year old would access for a book report.
I guess humor is beyond your level of comprehension.

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

Any environmental professional would scoff at laboratory data which did not include the sampling QAP (quality assurance plan), including dups, splits and blanks, and laboratory quality control data like matrix spike/ matrix spike duplicate, data flags, and equipment calibration data.
Here, we are presented with spoon fed data from wsda and some hyperbole from alarmist members about heavy metals in marajuana. No one here has presented a lick of evidence that using standard ferts will result in an exposure scenario exceeding USEPA, WSDA, OSHA, NIOSH, or whatever governing body you choose standards.
The fact that wsda doesn't perform QA/QC on simple spelling mistakes in their publication led me to question their data. If they dont catch spelling mistakes, how do we know the numerical data was also entered correctly. Maybe the dumb bitch manually entering data dropped a decimal here or there.
Typically, analytical data provided by a laboratory is provided in hard copy and electronic formats. The reason for providing the electronic format is so that when secrataries are presented the challenge of entering analytical data in a tabular format for publication purposes, they dont misspell shit like benzo(a)pyrene or confuse trichloroethylene with trichloroethene. You take the electronic data and copy and paste to prevent spelling and transcription errors. Obviously, the fine folks at wsda dont feel the need to double check the data the provide to the public, hence the jest at their data.
Now if someone has some concrete information of levels of heavy metals in smoke or vapor derived from marajuana grown using standard ferts, by all means share it with the masses.
I applaude the OP for presenting the data and opening the discussion and I dont disagree with the findings of wsda.
I would suggest for readers interested in heavy metals, they look at background levels of these metals in naturally occuring soils. You might be supprised that the levels in soils far exceed (sometimes orders of magnitude) the levels found in most commercial ferts. The gal from GH who stated the levels of lead in clay far exceed the levels in the ferts is correct. Clay based soils have a higher organic fraction than sand and gravel based soils, hence their affinity to absorb heavy metals. Anyone who has sampled groundwater for metals testing knows filtering the sample to remove clay particles (45 micron filter) reduces the metals concentration in the alliquot.
Here's some basic info about lead in garden soils.
http://www.grayenvironmental.com/lead_in_garden_soil.htm

 

[mrdizzle]

I would with a lot of toxic metals at the studio, and one thing I and pretty sure of, is, if these levels in these nutes were at levels that would be considered toxic, then they wouldnt be on the shelf for foodsafe products

 

[Classic Seeds]

i have known for quit a while that the 10 to 15% inert ingredience incommercial chem fertilizer were not inert .many farm lands have had to be shut down to allow for these heavy metals and other contaminates to leach down or break down the chemical processors that make the compounds are mostly to blame for using this inert loop hole to dump waste by products into fertilizers from what i have read.i am wondering how JR Peters brands of jack's classic stack up in this debate or dyno-gro .now that peters is making its supposedly pure dry ferts again under this name as spectrum chemicals sold the name peters and had all ready turned it to crap .

the old origonal family made peters was cheap and the tits a long time ago and had no inert toxic waste added in to it .i saw it on amazon and remembered how great it used to be .with the peters family making it again i am hoping its the same pure stuff of yesteryear along with the dyno-gro which is so much cheaper than all these niche pot fert companys stuff .thanks for a answer to my question who ever is finding all this great data about whats in what .nice to see a civil discourse and debate about such a scary subject .it seems we have polluted the whole food chain to the point that heavy metals and pcbs etc are in everything and everybody .even the newer organic stuff gathered from the middle of no where has stuff in it unless its real old deposits of crap ha ha .

but its really no laughing matter that our planet is turning into a toxic mess that can ruin life as we know it .the mercury in sea food in the pacific is out of control from all the coal burned in china and how its smoke changes to toxic compounds and enters the food chain .then all the other stuff we dump in our oceons and rivers and land fills .we only have one planet and if we are not better stewards of it we will all go the way of the dinasoars in the not to distant future . aloha cls

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

Bingo mrdizzle,
You think the nanny state bureaucrats would allow something in a bottle which might harm an underprivledged minority child?

 

[Ioni Botani]

I'm sorry, but I thought this was relevant.
How long has General Hydroponics been on the market? 30 something years?

I haven't heard anything about heavy metal toxicity in all these 30 years.....has anybody?

Ive even known people to grow fruits, veggies...no ill effects seen.

I also know people that intake herb grown with GH in OBSCENE amounts, over at LEAST 20 years. Those people are still alive and going strong...no signs of lead poisoning, mercury or the like.

Can most heavy metals even vaporize with the heat of a butane lighter?

Objections, retorts?

 

[mrdizzle]

also from how I learned, it really needs to be ingested or entered through the bloodstream to cause health concerns, and typically its from long term exposure. I dont see how the metals in the plant could cause problems unless you chew your buds

 

[ScrubNinja]

Sarge, thank you for qualifying your position, and the info. I forgot to say that I agree that the typos are inexcusable and throw some doubt into the figures. Was only pissed at the 'tude and didn't think it was funny, you're right, but I'm over it. I notice the info is available in a number of forms though, if one did want to cross-check. (compiled PDFs, and the individual product html pages)

Just as a general comment, what amazes me is that even the ancient Romans figured out (the hard way) that exposure to lead is not good. Yet here we are a couple of thousand years later with people seeming to say "don't worry about it".

Now if someone has some concrete information of levels of heavy metals in smoke or vapor derived from marajuana grown using standard ferts, by all means share it with the masses.

I'm pretty sure I have a study concerning that, and I presume it was from Spurr, probably on this thread. I'll try and find it later.

To use simpler observations though: What is causing the shitty taste when you smoke through a metal pipe? FWIW when I was a kid and scraped bowls, and got some metal specks in it, it could be tasted too. Using aluminium foil to make cones (aka bowls), smoking out of aluminium beer cans, I even smoked thru copper tubing a couple times when desperate. All taste shit.

Mrdizzle (my nizzle)

also from how I learned, it really needs to be ingested or entered through the bloodstream to cause health concerns, and typically its from long term exposure.

The lungs are a very efficient pathway to your bloodstream, and I suspect most of us are here to smoke as much weed as we possibly can until death - long term exposure, no? More is absorbed via smoking than eating the same amount, fyi.

I understand both your opinions are based on thinking it's not absorbed into the plant, or not released in the vapour, or etc, it's just that my mind has already been made on those issues. Yes, canna does suck up some of the metals in question readily, yes it releases in the smoke, and yes it will go into your bloodstream easily, and yes it's good to avoid exposure, any exposure, because a lot of these things gather and build up in your body and we are already living in a toxic wonderland with excess exposure as it is.

I know someone who was given mercury to play with in the classroom 4 times, just tippin' it from hand to hand etc. They are batshit insane imo. Not that that means anything, lol. Peace out.