powdered dolomite lime woes
- Thread starter MMJcali
- Start date
thanks dirrtyd. will keep that in mind for future grows.
an update: work was crazy today so didnt have time to search more...but my friend told me she had a coffee grinder that could literally crush rocks. I asked her if i borrowed it and broke it would she hate me forever? to which she said nah it wont happen.
So I borrowed this
and tried it out. the trick is to do it 1 tablespoon at a time - and don't hold it down, grind it in short 3-5 second bursts. this will prevent overheating.
the excellent news - I came out with enough white sandy powdered dolomite lime for this grow and the next!!!
I'll see how it works for this round. in the meanwhile I'll track down the proper stuff and do a comparison with the same genetics and see if anything changed between the two types of lime.
an update: work was crazy today so didnt have time to search more...but my friend told me she had a coffee grinder that could literally crush rocks. I asked her if i borrowed it and broke it would she hate me forever? to which she said nah it wont happen.
So I borrowed this
and tried it out. the trick is to do it 1 tablespoon at a time - and don't hold it down, grind it in short 3-5 second bursts. this will prevent overheating.
the excellent news - I came out with enough white sandy powdered dolomite lime for this grow and the next!!!
I'll see how it works for this round. in the meanwhile I'll track down the proper stuff and do a comparison with the same genetics and see if anything changed between the two types of lime.
That's the same grinder I use in my garage for lime. Works fine on all the pelletized/prilled lime I've ever seen, but if you truly have a bag of chunks o' lime, I can see why you had problems.
Pelletized lime is usually lime powder coated in clay. The clay just binds it all together, not for slow release but for easier spreading (outdoors). When it hits water, the clay dissolves and the lime is released. I've documented that ultra-high-tech experiment LOL here at ICMag a few years back, with pics.
You CAN us prilled lime in your soil mix and it will mix into your soil as soon as it gets wet. If given a choice, I'd go for powdered, but nobody here carries it and I refuse to spend $10 on a product then another $10 for shipping.
Pelletized lime is usually lime powder coated in clay. The clay just binds it all together, not for slow release but for easier spreading (outdoors). When it hits water, the clay dissolves and the lime is released. I've documented that ultra-high-tech experiment LOL here at ICMag a few years back, with pics.
You CAN us prilled lime in your soil mix and it will mix into your soil as soon as it gets wet. If given a choice, I'd go for powdered, but nobody here carries it and I refuse to spend $10 on a product then another $10 for shipping.
IwannatokeNbone
Member
check online grow stores, its called soil sweet, its powdered lime, comes in a 5 pound bag, its perfect.
Drop into my sticky about the Virtues of Dolomite Lime and get edumacated....
I think some chemical engineers gone wild in the thread but some usable information can be had...
My Lowes has Pulverized Dolomite Lime in the Lawn section (not the garden area). Big bag $2.98! Item # 60891 Flip the bag over and confirm on the back of the bag you are getting Dolomite Lime (not Calcitic Lime).
Digman is correct- pelletized lime is clay, lime and probably a polymer to bind- best avoided for bud growing...
I am shocked at some of the shit people throw into their mix and yet they still get buds- a testimony to the resilience of the mj plant!
I think some chemical engineers gone wild in the thread but some usable information can be had...
My Lowes has Pulverized Dolomite Lime in the Lawn section (not the garden area). Big bag $2.98! Item # 60891 Flip the bag over and confirm on the back of the bag you are getting Dolomite Lime (not Calcitic Lime).
Digman is correct- pelletized lime is clay, lime and probably a polymer to bind- best avoided for bud growing...
I am shocked at some of the shit people throw into their mix and yet they still get buds- a testimony to the resilience of the mj plant!
You would think hydro shops would carry powdered lime, around me, a 50lb bag is $12. They could bag it up in smaller bags and still make a fair profit. They could do the same for more minerals than lime too, but there must be more profit in those plastic bottles with kewl graphics. Btw around me promix 3.8 cf bale is $27.55 in the feed store and $40 in the hydro stores., but then you can't get kushie Kush at the feed store....scrappy
SupraSPL
Member
I used pelletized lime for a few years until I found a bag of pulverized at Lowes. The coating on the pelletized lime is a problem. It will raise your ppm massively until leaches out. Because it is water soluble it is easy to rinse the coating off before amending the soil mix. After you rinse it 3 or 4 times it will no longer contribute soluble ppm and you will be left with white colored insoluble calcium magnesium carbonate just like pulverized dolomite lime except less powdery. This can be added to a damp peat soil mix and effectively stabilize your ph within a watering or two. Good luck!
ppm? whaaa?
Folks, a bit of clay is good for your mix. It raises CEC, holds water, etc...
Folks, a bit of clay is good for your mix. It raises CEC, holds water, etc...
C
CC_2U
Liming Amendments
Liming Amendments
I screwed up my account 'Clackamas Coot' so I had to start a new one - yay!
Here's the deal on liming agents.
Calcium Carbonate Amendments
These are the 3 major forms of Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3)
Limestone - (this is what chemical reps refer to as Agricultural Lime) and will usually have a Calcium Carbonate level between 83 - 95% depending on which specific mine the product is coming out of. Limestone (Agricultural Lime) will also have a small amount of Magnesium (Mg) - about 3 - 5% depending again on which mine is the source
Calcitic Lime - this is pure Calcium Carbonate - usually around 95% and contains no traceable amount of Magnesium
Oyster Shell Powder - another pure form of Calcium Carbonate. This product is NOT from oyster shells from Happy Hour at Red Lobster. This is a specific product that is mined in the San Francisco Bay and has been since the 1920's. This is the product most often used by poultry producers, worm operations, etc. It carries a label showing 96% Calcium Carbonate
When figuring the amount of actual Calcium (Ca) when using the carbonate limes, take the total amount and multiply by 38.5% and that will (approximately) give you the actual Calcium levels.
Dolomite Lime - Calcium Magnesium Carbonate contains elemental Calcium (not Calcium Carbonate) so the numbers on the product will reflect the actual Calcium levels. The Magnesium Carbonate component is tightly bound to the elemental Calcium resulting in a much longer time period required for the Calcium to become available.
Gypsum - Calcium Sulfate Dihydrate contains both Sulfur Oxide and elemental Calcium. When broken down by microbes the sulfur releases Hydrogen (H) which will lower the pH (if necessary) and also contains Calcium which can raise the pH (again if necessary) - see Base Saturation and CeC
A typical liming agent used by organic farmers is something like this:
2x Calcium Carbonate
1x Dolomite Lime
1x Gypsum
Mix and add at the same rate if you were using a single agent.
At HomeDepot last night I looked at their products in the nursery section.
Soil Sweet - Dolomite Lime and it was less than $6.00 for 25 lbs.
Super Sweet - Limestone at around the same price
Gypsum - $8.95 for 50 lbs.
Choose your poison.
Prilled vs. Pelletized
Prilled soil amendments are coming and will eventually replace the powdered versions due to a finding by the Labor Department as it relates to worker safety. It will come to the retail market soon enough.
Prilled (as Dignan pointed out) is simply any agent that is coated with a clay thereby reducing the dust issue(s) which makes it far easier to apply to several hundred/thousand acres. The clay used for prilling processes is easily removed by water.
Pelletized is the same thing but the coating is applied thicker and a different clay is used which gives the farmer a longer source as it takes a couple of years to breakdown to the point where the actual amendment is NOW available to the soil biology to breakdown and use. You will never find this at a retail nursery.
CC
Liming Amendments
I screwed up my account 'Clackamas Coot' so I had to start a new one - yay!
Here's the deal on liming agents.
Calcium Carbonate Amendments
These are the 3 major forms of Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3)
Limestone - (this is what chemical reps refer to as Agricultural Lime) and will usually have a Calcium Carbonate level between 83 - 95% depending on which specific mine the product is coming out of. Limestone (Agricultural Lime) will also have a small amount of Magnesium (Mg) - about 3 - 5% depending again on which mine is the source
Calcitic Lime - this is pure Calcium Carbonate - usually around 95% and contains no traceable amount of Magnesium
Oyster Shell Powder - another pure form of Calcium Carbonate. This product is NOT from oyster shells from Happy Hour at Red Lobster. This is a specific product that is mined in the San Francisco Bay and has been since the 1920's. This is the product most often used by poultry producers, worm operations, etc. It carries a label showing 96% Calcium Carbonate
When figuring the amount of actual Calcium (Ca) when using the carbonate limes, take the total amount and multiply by 38.5% and that will (approximately) give you the actual Calcium levels.
Dolomite Lime - Calcium Magnesium Carbonate contains elemental Calcium (not Calcium Carbonate) so the numbers on the product will reflect the actual Calcium levels. The Magnesium Carbonate component is tightly bound to the elemental Calcium resulting in a much longer time period required for the Calcium to become available.
Gypsum - Calcium Sulfate Dihydrate contains both Sulfur Oxide and elemental Calcium. When broken down by microbes the sulfur releases Hydrogen (H) which will lower the pH (if necessary) and also contains Calcium which can raise the pH (again if necessary) - see Base Saturation and CeC
A typical liming agent used by organic farmers is something like this:
2x Calcium Carbonate
1x Dolomite Lime
1x Gypsum
Mix and add at the same rate if you were using a single agent.
At HomeDepot last night I looked at their products in the nursery section.
Soil Sweet - Dolomite Lime and it was less than $6.00 for 25 lbs.
Super Sweet - Limestone at around the same price
Gypsum - $8.95 for 50 lbs.
Choose your poison.
Prilled vs. Pelletized
Prilled soil amendments are coming and will eventually replace the powdered versions due to a finding by the Labor Department as it relates to worker safety. It will come to the retail market soon enough.
Prilled (as Dignan pointed out) is simply any agent that is coated with a clay thereby reducing the dust issue(s) which makes it far easier to apply to several hundred/thousand acres. The clay used for prilling processes is easily removed by water.
Pelletized is the same thing but the coating is applied thicker and a different clay is used which gives the farmer a longer source as it takes a couple of years to breakdown to the point where the actual amendment is NOW available to the soil biology to breakdown and use. You will never find this at a retail nursery.
CC
SupraSPL
Member
Yes the rinse water ppm went off the chart into the thousands. The coating is soluble in water and it must be more than just clay. It also affects the pH immediately upward. After the coating was rinsed off the remaining white granules behaved just like dolomite lime is supposed to behave. Insoluble, no significant change to ppm and only a slow pH adjustment toward 7.
I was making a soilless mix for a few seedlings with just sphagnum, diatomaceous earth and pelletized dolomite. The seedlings barely survived they were scorched, pale green and stunted for months. The runoff water was brown and the pH was 7.6. At the time I did not have a ppm meter and I was baffled. It wasn't until much later that I discovered the nature of the coating but luckily the seedlings pulled through eventually.
I was making a soilless mix for a few seedlings with just sphagnum, diatomaceous earth and pelletized dolomite. The seedlings barely survived they were scorched, pale green and stunted for months. The runoff water was brown and the pH was 7.6. At the time I did not have a ppm meter and I was baffled. It wasn't until much later that I discovered the nature of the coating but luckily the seedlings pulled through eventually.
C
CC_2U
Cool Moe
That's a nice product! It contains Dolomite Lime as well as Limestone. It's too bad that product isn't sold in the Pacific Northwest where acid soils are a given.
CC_2U
That's a nice product! It contains Dolomite Lime as well as Limestone. It's too bad that product isn't sold in the Pacific Northwest where acid soils are a given.
CC_2U
Thanks, Clack. I was getting on here tonight to post some of that same information about prilled lime. Clay will not harm your soil and no other polymers are used that would warrant someone worrying about their buds being tainted somehow. The brand I have most often used is Espoma and it's organic. I kind of feel like my grows tend to speak for themselves.
Supra, I've used pelletized lime, clay and all, with no problems. Maybe the trick is not having a ppm meter?
Seriously, if you work through your problems with chemistry, your problems will look like chemistry. Sorta how to a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
To me, your problem is you made a mix from sphagnum, pelletized dolomite, and diatomaceous earth. For seedlings I use my normal mix, or sometimes I make a bed of peat, sow it thick with seeds, and use a widger to transfer them. Using this technique I can cram a shitload of seeds in a tray, and I use straight peat with no amendments.
Seriously, keep the ppm meter for your pool, if you have one. Or get some carnivorous plants, which actually do need water almost free of minerals.
Seriously, if you work through your problems with chemistry, your problems will look like chemistry. Sorta how to a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
To me, your problem is you made a mix from sphagnum, pelletized dolomite, and diatomaceous earth. For seedlings I use my normal mix, or sometimes I make a bed of peat, sow it thick with seeds, and use a widger to transfer them. Using this technique I can cram a shitload of seeds in a tray, and I use straight peat with no amendments.
Seriously, keep the ppm meter for your pool, if you have one. Or get some carnivorous plants, which actually do need water almost free of minerals.
greenmystic
New member
Would hydrated lime work instead of dolomite lime? That's all I could find.
uglyfinger
New member
This is probably why Sunleaves doesn't have their "soil sweetner" listed anymore on their website. It was powdered.
onthaherb
Member
In a pinch, hydrated lime will work, but you want to use it at 1/4 or 1/3 the recommended application rate of dolomite lime (in common container soil mixes... NOT whatever it says on the hydrated lime package).
For instance, if your recipe calls for 1 TBSP of dolo lime per gallon, you'll want to try 1/4 TBSP of hydrated lime as a replacement (while you mail order some dolo lime).
greenmystic
New member
Thanks! I will have to find some dolomite lime instead. Do you think the pellets will work if I can't find powdered?
