brewing beneficials for hydro

[abuldur]

I have already brewed ACT compost teas with great results on my outdoor crops.I feed them all sorts:guanos ,compost, seaweed,raw minerals and sugars in the form of molases and agave honey.

I also run an indoor hydro setup with beneficials (aquarium type bio filters) and am really happy with it.
But it always takes a while to put it back on after the summer break.
This is to build back the beneficials before putting some girls in.
I usually run my system empty for a week or two but it really seems to be a wast of time.

My question is the following:
Is it possible to brew commercial beneficials such as AN tarantula or GH subculture in a tea (external to my system) in order to speed up the process ?

I would use dechlorinated water in a 5g bucket with suficiant air flow
and a mesh bag full of lava rocks dipped in subculture or such.
To feed those i would only use raw sugars molases...

Or should i just brew a regular tea containing compost.For some reason i am not confortable with the idear of using my outdoor teas on my indoor clay and lavarocks hydro setup.

peace

 

[1quixotix]

Not exactly the answer you want to hear, but the water from your last grow should have a fair amount of biological activity. I would think that adding some to your new grow would speed up colonization. In the same way sourdough is used.

 

[abuldur]

Thanks 1q, but unfortunately that water is long gone since i break down my indoor system during summer (cause its to hot and requires more maintenance than i am willing to put in) and grow outdoors instead.

Does anyone know how they reproduce those beneficials in labs ?

PEACE

 

[abuldur]

I don't get it. How can sourdough promote beneficial bacteria(aerobic).
Sourdough is lactic bacteria (anaerobic) .
Starch,molasses, raw sugars i thought this was the way to go to promote beneficial bacteria.Putting in some competitive anaerobic bacteria might be detrimental to my goal.
But then i read some stuff about people starting their compost piles using bokashi compost (anaerobic).Go figure.

peace

 

[abuldur]

I started a 5 gallon bucket with biggest air pump i could find (500 L/h).Left it bubbling overnight to get ride of the chlorine.

Inoculation was made buy dipping a mesh bag of lava rocks in a solution of GH subculture.

I also gathered earth worm casting (little less than a pound) from nearby forest and dumped them in the bucket (free floating).

To feed those i used a table spoon of molasses and another of agave honey.

This mix has been brewing for 48 hours.

I am going to use this to top water my recycling hydro system (before putting the girls in ) in order to speed up colonization.

peace

 

[abuldur]

Still bubbling,i am going to leave it another 24 hours.

Checked ph last night it was 6,5 little bit of foam.

Added another spoon of agave honey (to provide food for this long brew).

Results seem to vary a lot even with accustomed ACT users.

I have no microscope, so i figured a long brew and monitoring ph was my only option to check if thing were running smoothly.

If ph is still rising, i am going to top water my hydro system tonight and hopefully beneficial colonization will be achieved in a few minutes.

peace

 

[dramamine]

Very cool...I'm anxious to see how you do with this. Thanks for sharing it...peace

 

[abuldur]

Ok, so i finally pored the tea in on the 12th.I also scattered the lava rocks that where in the mesh bag into my hydro setup.

I did monitor the ph it was 5,8 when before i used the tea.

Left it overnight.

Next day ph was 6,8.

As far as i can tel mission accomplished.

PEACE

 

[Scrogerman]

facsinating bro, so how did it go? Ive been looking at bio filters for a while. excuse my ignorance but what is ACT?

Seems your going to fair lengths to create your own bene colonies for hydro. Im starting to read more & more on the subject.

 

[Horsemanrocks]

Movin' on up.

Movin' on up.

I'd hate to see this thread moving below the radar....A shamless bump.

HMR

 

[habeeb]

very iinterested for more info

when you wrun your hydro setup, you said you run a aquarium type bio filter, any pics you can show us for the setup... Im very interested...

for your main question.. I am always pondering how to establish the microbes without running a hydro system with plants ( roots / nutes ... ) . to me it might be more complicated then just adding molasses, as organic guys don't brew over 24 hours, as I hear it gets very complicated to feed the microbes past 24 hours...

who knows, this is good conversation though, and experimentation on the topic.. william texier told me you know the microbes are established when you get that gelatinous/ slick feel on your fingers when you rub them together after having them by the filter...

other then that my knowledge is capped... I do plan to do what you are doing only by adding an aquarium filter with stars, and then adding regular nutes / little seaweed to try and see if I can establish them in the filter before running the hydro system, switching out nutes every week. and also a nute very high in ammonium nitrogen


also william texier once told me you cannot tell by pH if the microbes are established, he said there were to many variables to know, but I have heard people saying in the past that there pH will not swing when running a big bio filter.. also when the microbes die ( if you have to man y) it could acidify the solution...



one thing to add. for me, thinking on my limited knowledge, I would not add a brewed tea ( compost / EWC ) as this is opening the door to many microbes of different sources.. when you look at the GH bioponics, all they need to process the material in there bio sevia line is the trichoderma hazarium.. which they sell in europe, or buy the subculture B if in the US.. I would think the simpler the better with organics and hydro... not that adding more microbes would not be better, I just have not heard any really solid info as why I should be adding all those microbes if there not needed, as my thoughts lead to it causing more harm then good... who knows though, as this realm is really info-less

 

[Neo 420]

Freakin interesting..... I would like more info on this.....

 

[Granger2]

Just found your thread...

If you really want a solid base of knowledge, here.
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/sfi_approach3.html

Here's a great DIY brewer http://pittsburghpermaculture.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Deuleys-brewer.pdf

"...there is enough aerobic bacteria and fungi in a good 5 gallon batch of aerated tea, that is the equivalent of about 10 tons or 40 cubic yards of regular compost!" Sez right here:
http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/organic/2002082739009975.html

The first is to be read if you really want to know about different organisms and what each does.

The second cuts to the chase. I bubble almost everything I feed, and foliar works great too. Highly recommended to prevent PM and botritis.

Earth Juice mixtures usually start out with a pH lower than I'm comfortable with. I inoculate with assorted things. I want diversity. I use a paint strainer bag to put solids in and use, at different times and combinations, EWC, my compost, Gerber's Baby Oatmeal [organic and textured like Cream-o-Wheat, especially good for fungi]. I use all kinds of things for nutrients. You can also use guanos, seaweed, alfalfa, rock powders, etc. IMO don't use corn. It has well known anti-fungal effects.

I mostly mix up Earth Juice or Botanicare mixes, and bubble till the pH gets to the range I want. I inoculate with above items, or with Aquashield, Plant Success Soluble. You can use any of the good commercial inoculants.

And always a sugar source. You can use all kinds of things, but unsulfered molasses, is the old stand-by. I also use extra dark malt extract from the home brew store, organic super dark sugar, etc.

I mostly monitor pH, smell, head. The heads are interesting. Don't put more than 3.5 gallons in a 5 gal bucket, or you'll want to set the bucket in a rubbermaid. You'll see beer type heads, stiff froth heads, etc. When you see a head you know you've got activity. And you know that you're producing CO2.

The smell starts out with the normal smell of the mix, then starts changing to assorted things such as beer, rum, onto yeasty. I usually use it in the yeasty stage. If you let it go too long it will start to stink. Pour it on your compost pile, lawn, or ornamental garden at that point.

The pH will rise, but may take as much as 48 hours to start. This seems to occur when the pH starts low like in the 4s. The Microherd is sluggish at low pH. If the pH rises out of hand, you can drop it back down with pH down, but I avoid doing it that way. I use a nute or sugar source as pH down. Earth Juice catalyst works well, and so do certain brands of molasses. This late addition gives the herd carbs for the road.

Usually, I use it when it smells right, and adjust the pH if needed.

I have no clogging issues. I hand water. Other methods will require aggressive filtering and other measures.

Aerating the mix allows the micro organisms to multiply exponentially to absolutely massive numbers. The thing to remember is that when you apply your teas to a medium, you're drastically changing the environment of the microherd. Many will die. Others will digest them, and on down the line. Their bodies and nutrients they process will be given to the plants. Many of them will feed the plants directly. The plants will set up symbiotic treaties with many to their mutual benefit. This is THE BEST fertilizer.

And the changing make up of the herd will determine the make up, a la Darwin, of the system in your particular rhizosphere. Brew on. -granger

Reminds me of a Firesign Theatre line. "Why, THIS IS A BAG OF SHIT!!" "Yes, but it's really great shit, Mrs. Presky."

Couldn't find a link to this, so I'm pasting it in from my Word.doc. Sorry, I couldn't get the photos to work. You might want to copy it into a doc or something for easy reference.

[FONT=&quot]Brewing Compost Tea [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tap your compost pile to make a potion that is both fertilizer and disease prevention
by Elaine R. Ingham[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Start with good compost, give it some water, some aeration, and some time, and you'll have a multipurpose elixir for your garden.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Gardeners all know compost is terrific stuff. But there's something even better than plain old compost, and that's compost tea. As the name implies, compost tea is made by steeping compost in water. It's used as either a foliar spray or a soil drench, depending on where your plant has problems.

Why go to the extra trouble of brewing, straining, and spraying a tea rather than just working compost into the soil? There are several reasons. First, compost tea makes the benefits of compost go farther. What's more, when sprayed on the leaves, compost tea helps suppress foliar diseases, increases the amount of nutrients available to the plant, and speeds the breakdown of toxins. Using compost tea has even been shown to increase the nutritional quality and improve the flavor of vegetables. If you've been applying compost to your soil only in the traditional way, you're missing out on a whole host of benefits

The science behind compost tea
The soil is full of microorganisms that aid plant growth and plant health--bacteria and fungi, which are decomposers, and protozoa and beneficial nematodes, which are predators. But there are bad guys, too--disease-causing bacteria and fungi, protozoa, and root-feeding nematodes. Our goal as gardeners is to enhance the beneficial microorganisms in this soil foodweb, because they help our plants.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It's not coffee -- it's tea. Well-brewed compost tea is rich in microorganisms that are highly beneficial to your plants' growth and health.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The bad bacterial decomposers and the plant-toxic products they make are enhanced by anaerobic, or reduced-oxygen, conditions. By making sure the tea and the compost itself are well oxygenated and highly aerobic, you eliminate 75 percent of the potential plant-disease-causing bacteria and plant-toxic products. To take care of the other 25 percent of potential diseases and pests, you want to get good guys into the soil and on at least 60 to 70 percent of your plants' leaves. Good bacteria work against the detrimental ones in four ways: They consume the bad guys, they may produce antibiotics that inhibit them, they compete for nutrients, and they compete for space.

Plants themselves don't use all of the energy they make through photosynthesis. For example, 60 percent of a vegetable plant's energy goes to its root system, and half of that energy is exuded into the soil. Of those exudates, 90 percent are sugars; the rest are carbohydrates and proteins. When you think about these ingredients as food, they're the makings for cake. This is high-energy stuff. Why is nearly one-third of a vegetable plant's output going into the soil as energy-rich food? To feed the good bacteria and fungi.

When we human beings kill off bacteria, fungi, protozoa, nematodes, and other organisms, whether by polluting the air or by spraying pesticides or even by using chemical fertilizers, we're reducing the population of critters that plants feed. That's why one of the simplest and best things you can do for your garden is to spray your plants with compost tea, to bring back organisms killed by chemicals.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Making the compost[/FONT] [Or buy a bag -granger]

[FONT=&quot]When the center of the pile reaches about 155°F, it's time to turn it. Mixing air into the pile brings the temperature down, but within a day it will climb back up.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]To make good compost tea, you need actively managed, mature compost; that is, compost that has been turned a few times and allowed to heat adequately so weed seeds and pathogens have been killed. Worm compost also makes excellent tea, without the hassle of turning or checking the temperature. Tea brewed from vermicompost that has been made from a fair amount of paper and woody materials is also high in humic acid, an organic substance that is especially good for potted citrus or other trees and shrubs, or perennial plants.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Start with the right kind of compost
You can manipulate compost so it's dominated either by bacteria or by fungi. Which one you want depends on what you're growing and what kind of soil you have. You always want a bacteria-dominated compost tea for use as a foliar spray, whatever the plant. Bacteria-dominated compost is also best for applying to the soil before growing vegetables and herbs. Fungi-dominated compost is good for mulching around berries and fruit trees. But research has shown that a foliar spray of bacteria-dominated compost tea is extremely useful to prevent the foliar diseases that plague most gardens. Thus, most of us need only be concerned with making a bacteria-dominated compost tea.

For bacteria to dominate, compost should be made from a preponderance of green materials. You need a mix of 25 percent high-nitrogen ingredients, 45 percent green ingredients, and 30 percent woody material. High-nitrogen materials include manure and legumes, such as alfalfa, pea, clover, or bean plant residues. Grass clippings from the first two or three cuttings in spring, when the blades are lush and tender, qualify as high-nitrogen; the rest of the season, they're simply green material. Green material includes any green plant debris, kitchen scraps, and coffee grounds, which, although brown in color, contain sugars and proteins that bacteria love. Woody material includes wood chips, sawdust, paper plates and towels, and shredded newspaper.

When making compost, measure your ingredients by volume. Try to mix a whole pile at a time. To get it up to temperature and keep it there, you need a mass that measures at least one cubic yard. Moisten the pile as you make it so that it is damp but not wet. An easy way to tell is to pick up a handful of the material and squeeze it as hard as you can; only one or two drops should be squeezed out. Less than that, add water; more than that, let it dry out.

Once the pile is made, you can add kitchen scraps as they accumulate. Bury them in the center in different places to help maintain heat in the pile. Small additions don't upset the ratio. If needed, you can balance the green additions with shredded newspaper or wood shavings.

A good compost pile really cooks
The pile will heat up right away, as microorganisms start breaking down the material. The pile must stay between 135°F and 160°F for three days. At 135°F, weed seeds, human pathogens, most plant pathogens, and most root-feeding nematodes are killed. The pile shouldn't go above 160°F because at that temperature large numbers of the beneficial organisms begin to be killed.

Within a day or two, the center should reach 135°F. Measure the temperature with a long-stemmed thermometer. A 20-inch compost thermometer is nice but not necessary; I use my turkey thermometer. Just be sure to stick the probe deep into the center of the pile. Take two or three readings from several areas of the pile each day for the first week when you first start making compost, so you get a feeling for what is normal. If you make the same mix again and again, after several batches you won't have to monitor quite so closely.

When the temperature gets to about 155°F, turn the pile with a pitchfork or a shovel. This mixes the cooler materials on the outside to the center and brings air into the pile, preventing anaerobic conditions. Within a day or so, the pile will be back up to 155°F, and you'll need to turn it again. Expect to turn the pile every day or two for about the first week to get it and keep it in the 135° to 155°F range. After that, you can let it alone, maybe turning it once or twice more during the next few weeks. The more you turn the pile, the more the compost tends to become bacterial. That's because any kind of disturbance destroys fungi by breaking up their mycelia and helps the bacteria beat the fungi by bringing the foods bacteria need into range for the tiny individual bacteria.

As the compost matures, the temperature will drop gradually until, after six to eight weeks, the center of the pile is cool or barely warm to the touch. The compost is now ready.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Brewing and using the tea[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]To brew compost tea, you'll need a pump, some air tubing, a gang valve, and three bubblers.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Once you have fully mature, nice-smelling compost, it's time to brew tea. You will need a 5-gallon plastic bucket and a few aquarium supplies: a pump large enough to run three bubblers (also called air stones), several feet of air tubing, a gang valve (which distributes the air coming from the pump to the tubes going to the bubblers), and three bubblers. You'll also need a stick for stirring the mixture, some unsulfured molasses (preferably organic), and an old pillowcase, tea towel, or nylon stocking for straining the tea. An extra bucket comes in handy for decanting the tea. Don't try to make compost tea without the aeration equipment. If the tea is not aerated constantly, the organisms in it will quickly use up the oxygen, and the tea will start to stink and become anaerobic. An anaerobic tea can harm your plants.

Also, keep in mind that tea made using this bucket method needs to brew for two or three days and then be used immediately. If you work Monday through Friday, start the tea on Wednesday or Thursday, so it will be ready in time to apply it on the weekend.

If you're on a well, you can use water straight from the spigot. But if you're using city water, run the bubblers in it for about an hour first, to blow off any chlorine. Otherwise, the chlorine will kill all those beneficial organisms you've gone to the trouble of raising.

Tea time
Once you have safe water, fill the empty bucket half full of compost. Don't pack it in; the bubblers need loose compost to aerate properly. Cut a length of tubing and attach one end to the pump and the other to the gang valve. Cut three more lengths of tubing long enough to reach comfortably from the rim to the bottom of the bucket. Connect each one to a port on the gang valve and push a bubbler into the other end.

Hang the gang valve on the lip of the bucket and bury the bubblers at the bottom, under the compost. Fill the bucket to within 3 inches of the rim with water, and start the pump.

When it's going, add 1 oz. of molasses, then stir vigorously with the stick. The molasses feeds the bacteria and gets the beneficial species growing really well. After stirring, you'll need to rearrange the bubblers so they're on the bottom and well spaced. Try to stir the tea at least a few times a day. A vigorous mixing with the stick shakes more organisms loose and into the tea. Every time you stir, be sure to reposition the bubblers.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]After three days, turn off the pump and remove the equipment. If you leave the tea aerating longer than three days, you must add more molasses or the good organisms will start going to sleep because they don't have enough food to stay active. Let the brew sit until the compost is pretty much settled out, 10 to 20 minutes, then strain it into the other bucket or directly into your sprayer. You'll have about 2 1/2 gallons of tea. If you want, this is the time to add foliar micronutrients, like kelp or rock dust. Use the tea right away, within the hour if possible.

You can put the solids back on the compost pile or add them to the soil. There are plenty of good bacterial and fungal foods left in them.

Follow your nose
With any form of compost, solid or tea, bad smells mean bad business. Healthy, adequately oxygenated compost and compost tea should smell sweet and earthy. Never use a smelly compost tea on your plants. The true bugaboo is alcohol, a product of anaerobic decomposition that destroys cell walls. Roots tolerate only 1 part per million alcohol. That's a very small amount, and human noses aren't good at detecting it. Instead, we can detect all the other smelly compounds that go with anaerobic production of alcohol.

If your compost tea smells bad, add a second pump with more bubblers, and stir it more often. Aerate it until the smell goes away. Likewise, if your compost pile smells bad, turn it more frequently.

Using the tea
How often to spray your plants with tea depends on how healthy your garden is. In my garden, which has had no pesticide use since 1986, I spray my plants one time in spring, then let the beneficial insects spread the compost tea organisms around the plants in my garden, preventing any pest problems for the rest of the season.

Beneficial insect presence is a good indicator of your garden's health. If you don't have good levels of beneficial insects in your garden, then spray at least once a month, or as often as once every two weeks. Start when plants have developed their first set of true leaves.

To control damping-off, spray the soil with full-strength tea as soon as you plant. On trees and shrubs, spray two weeks before bud break, then every 10 to 14 days. You'll have to spray every 10 days if you have a neighbor who sprays pesticides, because pesticides kill the beneficial organisms as well as some of the pests.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Tea-brewing setup in six steps[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]1. Attach one end of a piece of tubing to the pump; the other end will connect to the gang valve.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2. Attach tubing to each of the three ports on the gang valve. Plug bubblers into the other ends.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3. For adequate aeration, be sure the bubblers sit on the bottom of the bucket, which is half filled with compost.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4. Add water to within a couple of inches of the rim. If you're using city water, aerate it first for an hour to get rid of any chlorine.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5. To feed the microorganisms, add an ounce of unsulfured molasses (organic is best) to the bucket and stir.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]6. Stir vigorously a few times daily to shake free as many organisms as possible and to increase aeration. Reposition the bubblers after stirring so they're well spaced.[/FONT]

 

[Neo 420]

Bump for awesomeness... I do seem to see a little debate on how long to brew the teas due to monoculture. Any input on this? Should be able to confirm by microscope correct?

 

[TheBioMaster]

Just made a post in the Nutrient section on this stuff called "Chickity Doo Doo" that we have been testing. This stuff is cheap and OMRI certified and makes awesome ACT TEA! It contains 5% Nitrogen and 9% calcium as well.

Neo 420--You can go by smell, and PH as described in the post above already to tell when a brew is ready, but the basic time scale is usually about 12 to 24 hours for bacteria's and a bit longer for more diverse biology and fungi. The time scale will depend on amount brewing, and other environmental factors so its not an exact science. How much foam is produced is another good sign of activity.

The microscope and taking culture test is the scientific approach and most recommended for accuracy.

 

[Neo 420]

My understanding is the 24 to 30 hours for a good diversity. Longer amounts of brewing time would eventually lead to only a couple of bacteria/fungi colonies. I guess i may just have to invest in a power microscope. Great info regardless..

 

[Granger2]

Neo,
You can research it if you want to identfy strains of micro organisms, I guess. Might be fun, and could be useful. I just go for diversity, and don't worry about it. Have fun and brew on. Oh-gotta go. Need to check the head on my tea. -granger

 

[abuldur]

Well back after the traditional summer outdoor harvest,i did brew a few teas and got my hands on a Chinese air blower designed for fish farming.Cheap and rocks serious air flow but pretty noisy.

As for brewing beneficial bacteria in my aquafarms well i had a few problems last year (growing year that is).

Poring a traditional compost tea in my hydro worked as far as increasing fungi and bacteria are concerned.

But it also introduced collembola aka springtails in my system and believe it or not they can be detrimental to your grow.My yields were reduced because they started feeding on live plant material being starved of organic matter.

I am not using traditional BIO fertilizers although i use beneficial bacteria and a bio filter.

I have tried bio sevia and some other stuff but was not pleased with the yield.
I am now using Dutch ferts called Metrop which claim to be bio synthetised.They are very concentrated and allow me to have a very low EC throughout the grow with enough nutrients for the plants.
The logic behind this is that ferts do not harm beneficials unless there is to much of them in a solution (osmotic laws).I have no proof of this but it seems to work for me my PH is steady.
But they do not provide organic matter to be degraded by the springtails which then turned to my plants and fucked up my grow.

I still have no idea how bacterial powders are produced but am willing to learn any ideas ?

 

[Duckhunter-DK]

Nice reading here.!

Been playing around, thinking about organic hydro for a while.

Now i really want to try it.! My organic soil is a bit to slow. (Need to dial it in, I know.! But I love to rebuild )

Will be using Ebb'n flow in hydroton I think...
Just finished my biofilter, now I just need my rez and I'm golden!

Build from scraps.!

 

[il19z8rn4li1]

Def a great read, and something that a lot of people are jumping right into,,, including myself.

Im a hobbyist mycologist.. and Im in the middle of brain storming. HOW i could accompany a mycelium colony in a hydro setup.

I im sure though that I will have the location of this myco inside the RES where is will
live and thrive.

my goal is to get the full life cycle of a mushroom to be performed inside the RES
of a hydro system. I just gotta derive some kinda of container that will keep the DIRT..MULCH..SILT...ect from leeching into the RES then mixing throughout the entire system, kinda wanna limit the PARTICLE factor.. and concentrate more so on the aspect of "Liquid Cultures"


Great read indeed.



Duckhunter-DK-
Got no idea what you going on in that diagram