How much Blackstrap Molasses to use?

[mostnonymouse]

I feel a teaspoon per gallon is too much. I put a couple drops per gallon, to neutralize chlorine and chloramine. I let that sit a good ten minutes.

every watering.

I just implemented this same routine. little and often

 

[Chong_Irie]

I feel a teaspoon per gallon is too much. I put a couple drops per gallon, to neutralize chlorine and chloramine. I let that sit a good ten minutes.

every watering.

So does the molasses neutralize the chlorine/chloramine AND add beneficials or would i have to add another tsp? I hope you guys can understand what im asking

 

[Chronito]

I think i might drop back to 1tsp per gallon next time i use it, or like ChiefRBud said test both measurements side by side.. thats a good idea. I bet foliar spray works well too Chief, ive got some heavy indicas cranking so no chance of spraying the leaves in week 5 for me unfortunately..
Awesome thread guys!

 

[mad librettist]

So does the molasses neutralize the chlorine/chloramine AND add beneficials or would i have to add another tsp? I hope you guys can understand what im asking

I'm trying to add just enough reducing sugars to do the job without having excess that could compete with sugars coming from the roots. The micronutrients are a nice side benefit. Sort of enriched water.

 

[Chronito]

I'm trying to add just enough reducing sugars to do the job without having excess that could compete with sugars coming from the roots. The micronutrients are a nice side benefit. Sort of enriched water.

It sounds like your've really got your setup dialled in Mab Librettist, nice one!

 

[heady blunts]

What's an easy way to measure the molasses without a sticky mess? I was sticking a teaspoon in the jar and drizzling all over

i fill a mug with a little water, then put it in the microwave for a minute until it gets really hot. then i stir the molasses into the hot water and it goes into solution way faster. then just dump that into the rest of the water.

use the right size spoon so you only have to dip once.

 

[stagehand099]

I cut the stuff 50/50 with RO water a pint at a time and feed a half TBS per gallon most every watering. Cutting it sure makes it easier to pour!

stagehand

 

[Baba Ku]

Blackstrap does not neutralize chlorine. Where are we getting that from?
Perhaps the chap that stated one or two drops per gallon was thinking about H202 instead of molasses?

 

[tr1ck_]

Molasses removing chloramine peaked my interest, I had not heard that before, but I have chloramine locally so I have to use RO/DI which just makes things more complicated. If I could just add a bit of molasses instead that would be pretty nice

 

[mad librettist]

repost from here. notice the result for 1/4 tsp molasses in 5 gallons of water. It only took 20 minutes to neutralize all chlorine/chloramine. My experience is also practical. Having made many many brews of ACT and having checked many of those with a microscope, I am completely confident that a bit of molasses will neutralize all chlorine. A pinch of compost does it even faster.

1/ ascorbic acid for chloramines or chlorine; 3 grams in 100 gallons will
treat up to 3PPM.

2/ I found your chlorine test interesting and decided to do the same to
put my arguement that reducing sugars in the molasses would handle the
chlorine and chloramine.

Using a similar test strip that tests for both free and total
chlorine, I found my city water to have 0.5ppm free and 1.5 ppm of
free and total chlorine,respectively. Testing 1 gal and 5 gal of city
water, I added 1/4 teaspoon of molasses to each. The reaction was not
instantaneous but the kinetics were faster than I would have guessed.
The one gallon reaction showed no dectable chlorine of either type
withing 3 minutes. At 5 gallons, I obtained the same result within 20
minutes.

Chlorine levels are regulated a 4 ppm maximum
4 ppm = 4mg/l
Chloramine concentrations are expressed as chlorine equivalents, so one uses the molecular weight of chlorine for calculations.
One molecule of reducing sugar will react with one molecule of chlorine.
Therefore, on a weight basis, one needs 4mg/l *(the molecular weight of the reducing sugar/the molecular weight of chlorine)/ (the decimal fraction of reducing sugar in your molasses)
I’ve seen numbers ranging from 15% to 50% for the percent reducing sugar in molasses
The reducing sugars are going to be a mixture of mono and disaccharides. Molecular weights = 180 and 342, respectively
Chlorine molecular weight =70
Therefore, worst case, one needs 4*(342/70)/.15 =130mg/L molasses
I saw a recipe by Elaine that calls for 1 oz molasses in 5 gallons. That’s 1 part in 640 or 1563 ppm .
So, worse case you have a 12 fold excess.


Run these same numbers for pure glucose (a reducing monosaccharide) and you end up needing 10ppm glucose. When i need dilution water for spraying, I use a 20-30 ppm glucose and let it sit overnight.


I continue to be perplexed by the amount of hand wringing that
goes on over chlorine and chloramine. These both function as
oxidizing agents and, as such, are destroyed by reducing agents.

Cane molasses runs at 15-20% reducing sugar.
Regulations allow a maximum of 4ppm chlorine, expressed as Cl2.
Allowing for the molecular weight difference between Cl2 the
reducing sugars in molasses, you would need 10ppm reducing sugar to
react with the chlorine.
At 15% reducing sugar, you need 66ppm molasses.

I put my molasses in first, give it some time to react and don't
worry.

h202 like chlorine is an oxidizer (oxidant). There is not much hope that it would neutralize chlorine. They both kill microbes.

 

[Savoir-faire]

It would be cool if there was bibliography section on posts

W. well water chlorine isn't really an issue.. but..

The molasses neutralizing interests me

and so does the sunlight neutralizing that i read on a post by jay kush a while back.
- if the sunlight kills chlorine instantly, am i to believe that by showing with a hose, if the sun gets to the water.. the chlorine is absent by the time it reaches the soil?

also I remember hearing that the majority of hoses have some sort of heavy metal in them (was it lead?) is this true? what do we look for in a good hose?

 

[CASTLE212]

You definately have my respect mad librettist. You peaked my interest. I think what I will do is the same test with 5 gallons and 1 gallon. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

[mad librettist]

you should thank Microbeman, I just reposted. i figured molasses neutralizes chlorine since I don't remember how long ago. Maybe around the time I noticed a water bottle gets swampy fast under the following conditions:

1)filling it with well/lake/river water that is not chlorinated
2)filling it with municipal water after it has held a sugary drink and has not been washed with bleach

with straight city water, you can drink directly from the bottle with your mouth, close the lid, come back in a month and it is still drinkable.

with untreated water, take a drink from it with your mouth and leave it to grow for a week. Open it up and smell the difference. Any residual sugar at all will get you the same result, even with city water.

- if the sunlight kills chlorine instantly, am i to believe that by showing with a hose, if the sun gets to the water.. the chlorine is absent by the time it reaches the soil?

"instantly" is a big word that describes something impossible. Every reaction takes time. I have heard theories about letting water fall from a high place to eliminate chlorine, but the water bottle test proves this wrong. Also, a sealed water bottle left in the sun won't get swampy, so that tells me the sun does not neutralize chlorine. I bet you though, that when you add energy to water by leaving it in the sun, you greatly accelerate the rate at which chlorine evaporates. Your chloramines, though, aren't going anywhere unless they are neutralized.

Here is what I would do for the garden hose: get a hose end sprayer that can do liquids. Fill it with a compost slurry that has been filtered through a paint strainer, set it to the lowest concentration, and water away. Or you could put ascorbic acid in there. Probably molasses would not work quickly enough though.

 

[Baba Ku]

Couple of things...
I find it hard to come to the conclusion that two drops per gallon is what should be used. A teaspoon or a tablespoon are absolutes, whereas a "drop" is very subjective. The drop is constituted by several variables, including ambient temperature, atmospheric pressure, density of material, and orifice. Turkey baster or eye dropper?

The so called tests provided here don't seem to be very controlled. For one thing chlorine seems to be equated with chlorimines, however they are both different substances.

If there is chlorine used in a certain drinking water, the chances are that chlorimines are not used, and visa-versa.
But assuming both are present, how did the tester differentiate between the two?
And I think some citation may be required with the claims being made. Especially about the interaction of sugars with chlorimine.

NH2Cl a monochlorimine is what is commonly used by water treatment facilities.
This is only wiki stuff...but a good start if you are serious.

Removing chloramine from water

Chloramine can be removed from tap water by treatment with superchlorination (10 ppm or more of free chlorine, such as from a dose of sodium hypochlorite bleach or pool sanitizer) while maintaining a pH of about 7 (such as from a dose of hydrochloric acid). Hypochlorous acid from the free chlorine strips the ammonia from the chloramine, and the ammonia outgasses from the surface of the bulk water. This process takes about 24 hours for normal tap water concentrations of a few ppm of chloramine. Residual free chlorine can then be removed by exposure to bright sunlight for about 4 hours.

Situations where NH2Cl is removed from water supplies

Many animals are sensitive to chloramine and it must be removed from water given to many animals in zoos. Aquarium owners remove the chloramine from their tap water because it is toxic to fish. Aging the water for a few days removes chlorine but not the more stable chloramine, which can be neutralised using products available at pet stores.

Chloramine must also be removed from the water prior to use in kidney dialysis machines, as it would come in contact with the bloodstream across a permeable membrane. However, since chloramine is neutralized by the digestive process, kidney dialysis patients can still safely drink chloramine-treated water.

Home brewers use reducing agents such as sodium metabisulfite or potassium metabisulfite to remove chloramine from brewing liquor as it, like chlorine, it can be removed by boiling, however boil time to reduce chloramine to a terminal measurement is longer.[12] Residual sodium can cause off flavors in beer (See Brewing, Michael Lewis) so potassium metabisulfite is preferred.

Chloramine can be removed from bathwater and birthing tubs by adding 1000 mg of vitamin C (as the ascorbic acid form) to a medium size bathtub (about 40 gallons of water).[13]

 

[mad librettist]

try this: reverse the problem. what if your goal is to kill all the microbes? how much chlorine/chloramine would you need to maintain sterility if I come around and throw molasses into your water? What if I contaminate water with something very low in sugar, like coffee? If I come back in two weeks at room temp, will I find mold growing in it?


and please stop telling people to use h2o2. it has no place in a sensible grow, except maybe for cleaning tools.

thank you for changing your tone.

 

[mad librettist]

I find it hard to come to the conclusion that two drops per gallon is what should be used. A teaspoon or a tablespoon are absolutes, whereas a "drop" is very subjectiv

I think just about everyone can deal with this measurement. They get the idea, especially after reading that 1/4 tsp will neutralize 1.5ppm of total chlorine in 5 gals of water. If you need me to be pedantic about it:

dip a standard disposable chopstick in the molasses. let two drops fall into 1 gal of water and wait 10 minutes. More chlorine than that in your water? Add more drops. Can't decide? 1/4 tsp per gallon.


I do this because I water with a sprayer, not a watering can. It's easier to clean up compared to compost in water, and I don't have to keep ascorbic acid around.



this concept is so easy that i am baffled by the intellectual resistance to it. if you know how chlorine kills, you know how to neutralize it. just get it to "kill" before you use it.

It's also obvious why molasses would be a poor choice for neutralizing chloramine for brewing beer: aside from not being called for to make the wort and having a very strong flavor, blackstrap is full of dormant organisms, yeasts in particular. If you are going for a flavor profile, you don't want wild yeast contaminating your brew.

Try 1/4 tsp of molasses in a gallon water and tell me you can't taste it.

 

[mad librettist]

wow I have never gotten so much bad rep for posting so much good info.

thanks guys.

 

[Baba Ku]

Thing is, you have nothing but one post on a message board to back up your assertions.
And what you are asserting is bollocks. Show me how it's not.

Your first problem is you keep doing the "chlorine/chloromine" thing...-are you implying that they are one in the same and can be considered as such? If so, they you are for sure all screwed up.

Oh, and btw...just how does h202 kill microbes? Could you explain that to us?
I suggest if you are going to make a blanket statement of what I should or should not tell people, that you damn well come with something to back it up. You have not shown much at all really.

You know...you have insulted me, and then demanded respect from the community. And you are worried about rep?

 

[Microbeman]

Baba ku,

What Mad posted is just a repeat of a compilation of comments from 2 colleagues which I posted some time ago.

One of them a retired microbiologist and beer brewer, the other retired from running one of the largest organic ornamental gardens in the world. You are correct the testing was just informal and not rigidly constructed because they were not making journal submissions but advising friends.

The same is true when I do a test to see how much and how quickly I can grow fungal hyphae in ACT. It is either tested to be there or it is not. Because I did not run a rigid experiment does not subtract from my observations because it is an either 'there' or 'not there' result.

I can assure you, amongst experienced growers and landscapers it is common knowledge that organic matter (& ascorbic acid) neutralizes (ties up) chlorine and chloramines. Not only could I use molasses for this but my old boot would suffice. I'd rather use molasses since it has more benefit than my old boot. Also useable is a small portion of compost or soil, etc.

If Mad has stated that he has utilized a certain amount of molasses and verified an active microbial population microscopically utilyzing the treated water, why would you not capitulate to this? Are you accusing him of lying? Do you just like arguing? In my opinion this is grounds for banishment. Perhaps an apology is in order.

Whomever it was that jumped on the bandwagon to give Mad negative rep over this you display your ignorance.

 

[Microbeman]

Oh, and btw...just how does h202 kill microbes? Could you explain that to us?

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=...w+does+h202+kill+microbes&fp=ccd0a402b0736d6b

Good grief! Really?