passive plant killer

[DevilWeed]

D9!!! Glad to hear you're feeling better!!

Lot's of good thoughts there. One that resonates for me - "several months of neglect". Exactly why I needed a system like this. I tend to be a bit scatter-brained these days and don't always do maintenance(chores) when I should. These things are bullet proof! Well, almost...

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Glad you're back off your back.

there is also the principle of mass balance here. this simply states, that, in a closed system, all nutrients added over the life of the plant are still in the system somewhere. in the solution, medium, or plant itself. the plants take up what they need.

The only concern that this raises in my mind is if the feed solution is imbalanced. If the plant takes what it needs and leaves the rest,

and there's excess of what it needs in one part of the profile or another,

it stands to reason that that unneeded stuff will continue to accumulate in the system (possible toxic results).

Of course, it's clear from the results that this is not the case (at least to toxicity).

Now for my mental about face: If we are using a nute profile that hits pretty damn near what the plant needs over a life time, but are allowing it to mix through the common connected hoses, might the system also be self correcting? By which I mean: In this phase of veg, the plant doesn't need much P, so it starts to accumulate. In this phase of flower it does, so it starts to deplete. In this phase of flower it doesn't anymore. But in a perpetual cycle, you have plants in all phases, possibly stabilizing the whole of the system.

Or rather that might be a reason we observe your garden system as so stable.

If the EC is accumulating in the fourth week of flower, and we can figure out what is being left behind (or more accurately, what is being taken up in greater quantities) we gain nice insight right?

With regard to PPM concentrations, I am feeding stupid light right now. Per my tendency, it is not particularly scientific, however, I have only added about 20 gallons of EC 2.0 to the system over the last two months. Two plants are taking up about a gallon plus a day... so I'm guessing my feed is (averaged out with an auto RO top off) pretty low.... EC .8?

Some hinting that it could be a stronger feed (I'm starting to get a bit of N deficiency on select leaves within the inner, lower canopy), but largely the plants are just trucking along.

 

[daggerinmyback]

Good to know youre doing better!

any recommended type of meter?

and flushing has been totally eliminated?! or do you still chop and let it set in water in the dark before drying?

and are we still at the 1.0/.67 or did it move to .9/.67 Ive read through this thread and honestly confused myself with so much info but when I sit and reread certain sections I realize its like a 5th grader taking a post grad class ... some stuff is way above my grasping.

and I'm doing my best to not screw this up... lol cause if its stable and neglectable then it should bee perfect for my coming up surgeries...

well I wish I could give ya my extra 20 lbs lol hope it gets better man

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

and I'm doing my best to not screw this up... lol cause if its stable and neglectable then it should bee perfect for my coming up surgeries...

You'll be fine.

Point one here or there will fall within the range the system can buffer for.

Initially, I measured out even volumes, weighed it a bunch of time. The volume measurement was reasonably consistent in weight, which I interpreted to mean that I was using a decent volume control.

I then added on unit of Jacks to some quantity of RO, stirred vigourouslessly and took an EC measurement.

Then I added a unit of CalNit, stirred, and took the second EC measurement.

For what it was worth, my ratio showed the ppm concentration per unit to break down like:

Jacks:CalNit :: 1:0.655.

(Let's hear it for notebooks with a longer short term memory than me.)

 

[the_baked_chef]

Hi all

i really like the idea of the ppk and how its working and i am still in the planning phase so obviously i have some questions
but no answers...

If i would try to implement the pkk into a growtent with very limited vertical space (4-5feet) so that i would need an as shallow built as functional to still have enough place to scrog my plant what were the minimal water depth and air gap so that it would still work?

The control bucket and basin would obviously stay outside of the tent, so their size wouldn't really matter.

Could i use simply one flat lower "bucket" (like the one in the first ppk versions) with two to four upper buckets all being fed trough the same lower bucket?

I think i even read about someone would acutally did implement the ppk in some sort of "mini-grow - or did i?

 

[SCROG McDuck]

I've had this dust/gremlin looking stuff forming
on the bottom of the volume rez... didnt think anything of it but
as I added juice to the rez, it stirred up this shit and it
fed thru to the float valve in the controll bucket, sticking it closed. ; so it wasnt being fed by the volume rez... figuring
it was a fluke, I blew out the lines, washed out the volume rez (it was brand new 2.5 months ago) refilled.... a month laster sameo, sameo..

I notice a film (slick feeling) on the surface of the juice in the volume rez.. I'm thinking that this 'slick' is congeling and dropping to the bottom of the rez, when I put new mix into the rez... rez is covered..any ideas?

 

[daggerinmyback]

I had a 30 min conversation with one of the people at JRPeters today (called in an order as there is no distributor near me in Cali) he asked me a few questions and said the Calc Nit they sell is recommended to be added to each 2nd mix rez top off to avoid a precip forming when adding to a system used for growing smaller "medicinal" crops when he said that and asked if I was comfortable discussing it and the system I am or plan on using I said yes and was transferred to someone for advice and I told them the "system" I use is a PPK then told him how it worked gravity feed not rDWC or DWC like they had intended this chemical for but after the explanation I told them this sites URL for "researching" and thanked them for a stable product and I told him the ranges these are ran in and he asked me how it performed at a lower feeding regime for what I grow (told him of my last experience and referred again to read this thread and the other two tied to it) he took down the info and said he'd read over this and said that its odd we havent had a person get precip buildup of some kind yet mixing both with each top off but said if it works go with it.

scientists can be awesome... wonder if they'll join here and give us more data...

something makes me think its a form of algae I had in my 6 pod rDWC ... and it was greyish clear

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

To the baked chef,

If i would try to implement the pkk into a growtent with very limited vertical space (4-5feet) so that i would need an as shallow built as functional to still have enough place to scrog my plant what were the minimal water depth and air gap so that it would still work?

People seem successful with an air gap of about three INCHES to move the Perched Water Table out of the root zone (to manage the soggy/oversaturation issues sometimes observed in coco grows.)

There is no minimum water depth, provided that some of the media wick is submerged. Presumably, the more solution present in the sub-res, the more buffered the solution is and the less rapid a fuck up like forgetting to top off your bulk reservoir... I can see myself being rather comfortable with relatively wide, six inch deep sub-reservoir with a five inch wick and three inch air gap... but as long as the wick is submerged, the rest is just details.

The control bucket and basin would obviously stay outside of the tent, so their size wouldn't really matter. Could i use simply one flat lower "bucket" (like the one in the first ppk versions) with two to four upper buckets all being fed trough the same lower bucket?

Yes. It is easily done. You can house your pulse pump in the lower reservoirs too. D9 recommended, and I agree, that connecting the sub-sub reservoirs such that they move from the 'control reservoir' through other subs to the 'pulse reservoir' will contribute to moving more solution through all the reservoirs more quickly... so there should be a more even distribution of fresh solution.

Here is a flat based PPK with the bases interconnected, serving as control reservoir and pulse-feed reservoir:

I think i even read about someone would acutally did implement the ppk in some sort of "mini-grow - or did i?

oldone has been growing one-million day flowers with a PPK in his cab. You can find it HERE.

 

[jjfoo]

I was thinking about cool tube setups but was thinking the vertical cool tube with little cfl corner lights

CFL's would add heat and not add much light. CFL's are less efficient than HID lights. They are usually good for times when you need little light.

If you can get a light meter you will see just how little light they put off at say 10 inches away.

 

[jjfoo]

delta,

I am coming to the same conclusion on bottom rez size. I'm looking for a way to have a tine cup that just encloses the wick.


I think your rec on using 1.2 maybe too general. It really depends on your lights, CO2, levels, temps, amount of photosynthesis, etc.

If I gave my veg plants 1.2, they would turn yellow. at 1.4 they are light green. This also changes over time (I think). I mean my veg plants take 1.4 and the runoff is about 1.7.

My flower plants take in 1.7 and the runoff is about 1.7.


I think of it like this. if you had a large plant filling a bucket with massive foliage, it could use the salts differtnly than a tiny plant. or for an extreme case a bucket with no plant would only lose water and accumlate salt, but the more photosynthesis going on the more salt you need.

 

[jjfoo]

Glad you're back off your back.

The only concern that this raises in my mind is if the feed solution is imbalanced. If the plant takes what it needs and leaves the rest,

and there's excess of what it needs in one part of the profile or another,

it stands to reason that that unneeded stuff will continue to accumulate in the system (possible toxic results).
.

not to mention that build ups of some minerals can cause them to precipitate and not be available

I guess having a low EC would mitigate this

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

I think your rec on using 1.2 maybe too general. It really depends on your lights, CO2, levels, temps, amount of photosynthesis, etc.

jjfoo,

No critique here... just typing out some thoughts that are stimulated by the post above...

You've made some very helpful posts in this thread in terms of helping me begin to, if not understand the idea of cation exchange, at least acknowledge the fact that plants concentrate elements within the plant in an imbalanced manner; i.e. the plant concentrates nutrients through an electrochemical process... not simply osmotic balance.

At some point--and I'm not sure where that point can be found--Vapor Pressure Deficit as a means describing systematic hydraulic and osmotic pressures play a role. You touch on this when you comment (quoted above) on the relationship the environmental elements play in what the plant can take up. I presume you include atmospheric humidity, even though you don't mention it specifically.

Here is my thought with regard to operationally low ECs: The lower the EC of the feed solution, the less resistance there is to water uptake throughout the system. What I think I've observed in mobile elements is the tendency for them to move upward and outward throughout the system; that is, in the same direction as water flow. (IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT IN THE ABSENCE OF TRANSPIRATION (e.g. dark cycles), THIS FLOW DISAPPEARS, AND THE TENDENCY OF SOLUTIONS TO MOVE TOWARDS EQUILIBRIUM MIGHT BE ENTERTAINED AS A PRIMARY MOTIVE FORCE.)

So if we can feed to our maximum minimums--that is, our nute concentration being just enough that is not our limiting factor, we will maximize the internal activity within the plant insofar as water is a medium of transfer within the plant.

I don't know the environmental factors within your garden. And you're feeding regime must cater to your local conditions. But you might find with a higher temp, and a lower EC, a very different plant metabolism. (Resulting from increased nutrient mobility from increased transpiration (i.e. more internal movement within the plants infrastructure). [What I am really saying is that all factors are ultimately connected. Not so profound, but sometimes I have to remind myself of the obvious.]

Hum... I'll have to re-read this once I've got a clearer head.

I have been running too low of EC lately... but am only showing signs of real deficiency down around an average feed of .4 or so...

 

[daggerinmyback]

the CFL's I use may not be that huge or bright but they do enough to notice a difference in shaded out corners, but then again I was using 80$ CFL's from Chameleon cages that are UV emitting with a color of 6400k placed around a shaded out cola on my last grow and they ripened a little faster than the ones in the light trich turned a nice bit of amber 4 days sooner than just the HID lit side and the ones I used were 105w for the huge cages and I keep em about 6" away

that was part of an experiment I was doing as well true UV from sunlight has to have some effect but after I dried the initial cuts that were UV exposed I noticed they were more dense and hard caked with trichs the side with only HID 400w like 6" away from the plants tip top cola (height limitation and wrong light hood but it worked and was free)

thanks for the input though I'm just trying to not have 3 HID's in a 4x4x6.5 tent cause the electric bill would get me

may not be much light but I still have 2 of em to toss in and 0 chameleons thanks to the cops ... fucking dicks

and I am working with limited space so CFLs close by may be my answer ... I'll start a thread one of these days after I get my build going maybe 3.5 inside a 5 is the tiny rez to change over faster we need but I dont want roots popping through into the rez from air pruning holes ...

and a 3" airgap mentioned above... is that for lower containers? like the wide low cab style cause I was planning a 1.5" ...

and US plastics said their black buckets werent food safe on the phone so I went to the lowes gray buckets for bases..

 

[the_baked_chef]

Thanks for the answer and the link IF

I'm glad to hear that the small ppk system that i had in mind could be done.
I came across a few more questions

the first was whether i could keep my motherplants in a bucket connected to the ppk system. What would happen if overtime the roots of the plant had maxed out all the place in their medium? They would probably grow down the mediumwick, wouldn`t they?

The next question may be really stupid but i read some interesting stuff about aquaponics and i wondered if i could use the water from my fishtanks as basis to mix my nutrient solution.
I guess that there should be all kind oh minerals and stuff in it, but without much movement or filters of any kind, it probably would get bad or slimy or i don't know what?

The last question concerns my medium. I read that peat is also considered a possibility. I do have peat in large quantities as i use it to lower the ph-value of the water in my fishtanks and i wonderes if the low ph of 3-5 (depending on the kind of peat) wouldn't be a problem for the plant.
Would i have to adjust the ph of my nutrient solution so that is counterbalanced the low ph of the medium?

It's really exciting planning all this

 

[SCROG McDuck]

and US plastics said their black buckets werent food safe on the phone so I went to the lowes gray buckets for bases..

What did Lowes say? HAHA!!

Are you thinking that the US plastic buckets are toxic?

I'm thinking that D9 has ben useing USP buckets for quite some time now.. He seems to be doing fine... with the buckets...

How he is doing physically?? doeno.. hope alll is betterer.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

@ the chef

the first was whether i could keep my motherplants in a bucket connected to the ppk system.

Yes. Mums are allowed.

What would happen if overtime the roots of the plant had maxed out all the place in their medium? They would probably grow down the mediumwick, wouldn`t they?

Probably. One of the reasons from removing the PWT from the media is that can create a dead zone (oversaturation of stagnant water). The PWT is moved into the wick, and therefor is not a great place for air or feed roots to develop. Water roots can make their way through there eventually.

The next question may be really stupid but i read some interesting stuff about aquaponics and i wondered if i could use the water from my fishtanks as basis to mix my nutrient solution.
I guess that there should be all kind oh minerals and stuff in it, but without much movement or filters of any kind, it probably would get bad or slimy or i don't know what?

Aquaponics is interesting.

That said, the PPK as been a stable successful system for a number of people running Jack's Hydroponics with CAl-Nit sold by J.R. Peters. Presumably, it will work with any well balanced nute regime.

If your fish poop a well balanced nute regeim it may work. Well beyond my experience though.

The last question concerns my medium. I read that peat is also considered a possibility. I do have peat in large quantities as i use it to lower the ph-value of the water in my fishtanks and i wonderes if the low ph of 3-5 (depending on the kind of peat) wouldn't be a problem for the plant.
Would i have to adjust the ph of my nutrient solution so that is counterbalanced the low ph of the medium?

Coco currently is the preferred choice of PPK growers. It has wicking potential well suited for the system, and seems to have plenty capacity to maintain decent air content.

You are, of course, welcome to experiment.

I haven't heard of anyone loosing a PPK based plant (to anything other than the cops--poor dagger), so if you choose to follow the program D9 has laid out you very likely to harvest. PPK+Coco+Jacks=crop.

I would recommend following the program, getting used to your garden, and then consider future evolutions.

Of course, this is advice few of us are able to take.

 

[the_baked_chef]

Thanks again for your answers )

I will try to stick stick to whatever is already proven to work.
So Coco will be me first choice - as you said if i've made some experiences i can always try out somthing new

The Jacks sound very interesting but here in the netherlands i will probably have no luck getting them without enormous shipping costs, so i probably will go with the flora nova bloom which *mistress* suggested in one earlier post.

I will watch how long my motherplants will need until their roots come out of the wick and see this as a sign to repot them whilst cutting their roots back - probably.

Thanks for all the great info...

 

[daggerinmyback]

Yep Seems Cops are the only hazard a PPK cant tolerate...

and USP advised me against ANY black bucket for the rez as its not food safe by the FDA guidelines and contains more petroleum based products/bi products than the other colors and I know hes been using em without problem and the lowe's gray bucket is, metallic silver one isn't, got gray and slipping black ones over it or just painting them

I'm afraid of offgassing like the NGW shit... but then again I am a paranoid "farmer" cause of the ONLY loss since PPK revolution was mine... sadly to the gang in blue (not crips worse)

I'm going to build a Ultra Mini PPK setup for clones and might swap some to larger 3.5 in 5 PPK and "modular ScrOG" the rest and just change out my bulk for the mini setup (flower em at like 8" after transplanting the replacements from my bigger tents chop)

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

flora nova bloom which *mistress* suggested in one earlier post.

If I recall correctly, some people have noted an instability in FNB. There are some GH powder nutes that are inexpensive, popular and stable... what are those?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Maxi something?

Shit, *mistress* knows her stuff. I'm probably wrong on this one.

 

[daggerinmyback]

maxi bloom or cool bloom?

and jacks shipping shouldnt be so bad theres USPS flate rate boxes just have someone break out 5lbs of each or so cram it in one and send it lol I paid 44.90 after shipping for it and click specialty chemicals under the tab at jrpeterslab(dot)com and check its really good stuff and doesnt take much so it lasts