Question for vegan gardeners.

[Xiggi StarrdusT]

You can eat bee pollen to keep your immune system healthy and your allergies down.

 

[mad librettist]

Lazyman - I don't think the point of veganism is environmental stewardship, per se, but rather getting off the wheel of samsara. They are trying to avoid Karma.

Xiggi - more falsehood in your post than truth. I recommend a good book to start, like Teaming with Microbes.

 

[Thiru Valluvar]

if you really get technical like that its pointless

when the protozoa eats bacteria and poops out plant food. oops thats not vegan...

Smoking Gun (the OP) did ask about vegan gardening... that's the point. It wouldn't quite work to suggest Steak and Kidney Pie to someone who was on a cooking forum asking about vegetarian recipes.

 

[Thiru Valluvar]

I'm sorry, am I the only one who finds the premise of vegan gardening a bit silly? I don't mean to offend, but you probably do more damage to the environment driving a combustion powered anything to the store and picking up a bottle of anything (in a plastic bottle no less) then you would by using some EWC or the like. Why the minutae?

The "or the like" part also works with vegan gardening. You don't necessarily need to be combusting your way to the store to pick up plastic bottles of vegan nutrients.

DocLeaf and jaykush and others contribute some great knowledge on a thread here about using stinging nettle, comfrey and other plants to create plant-based nutrients that you can grow right at home:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=177463

Interestingly enough, Xiggi, someone on that thread also suggests that regular consumption of nettles can help with allergies too.

 

[Smoking Gun]

Thanks all of you for your input, it has really been quite helpful.

One of the reasons I am looking into vegan gardening is in many ways to limit or exclude trips to the hydro or garden store. If I can produce my nutrients and soil in my back yard this would keep my costs down, give me an environmentally friendly method to grow with, and keep in the spirit of permaculture (which does not exclude animal byproducts but I have no place to keep animals, but I have space to grow plants).

 

[jaykush]

One of the reasons I am looking into vegan gardening is in many ways to limit or exclude trips to the hydro or garden store

you need to be thinking of gardening with natural materials rather than "Vegan" "vegetarian" or any else like that. the whole world around you(even locally and even in the most populated cities) will supply your every need for gardening the best of the best. if you end up with bones left over from your meals, you can end up using those if you like, which does not require a trip to the hydro store. if not oh well there is other things that will substitute its place.

 

[Smoking Gun]

you need to be thinking of gardening with natural materials rather than "Vegan" "vegetarian" or any else like that. the whole world around you(even locally and even in the most populated cities) will supply your every need for gardening the best of the best. if you end up with bones left over from your meals, you can end up using those if you like, which does not require a trip to the hydro store. if not oh well there is other things that will substitute its place.

I do understand that. I am trying to put together as much info as possible on the subject as I can as at some point I would like to try vegan gardening at some point.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

One working definition for 'soil' is that it is simply rotted/composted plant and animal material with shattered rock.

That should have the vegans spinning on their buttered corn cobs.

CC

 

[DocLeaf]

Let's face it,, vegans are stupid if they deny the positive role of worms and bees in the world. Nuff said

 

[Clackamas Coot]

In looking at the information at the state's organic controlling board here, Oregon Tilth, as well as looking at sites discussing vegan farming/gardening, there is absolutely no admonition against the use of earthworm castings and as a matter of fact it is at the base of their soil management concepts.

The majority of their methods to feed the soil is what Jaykush uses - plant-based composts, teas, FPE, et al.

I use 3 items that would be considered animal-based - fish meal, fish bone meal and crustacean meal (shrimp & crab). I could easily replace the fish meal with a combination of alfalfa meal, soybean meal, linseed meal, sunflower meal, etc. And probably be ahead of the nutrient deal.

Fish bone meal again could be easily replaced with plant-based agents. Comfrey, nettle, et al. Again - you'd probably be ahead of the deal with faster breakdown times with these vs. ground fish bones.

The only one that would give me pause would be replacing the crustacean meal. I have found it to be an important component for insect suppression. If there is a plant source for chitin and it is available in either organic or wild-harvested form (like Yucca for example) then I could/would drop that.

Actually from reading the outlines of their processes, other than shunning meat factory products, their overall deal is pretty consistent with general organic farming methods. No big/huge differences at all.

Here's an article that is re-posted or quoted on several vegan farming/gardening sites.

HTH

CC

 

[mad librettist]

The only one that would give me pause would be replacing the crustacean meal. I have found it to be an important component for insect suppression. If there is a plant source for chitin and it is available in either organic or wild-harvested form (like Yucca for example) then I could/would drop that.

Heya CC,

I don't believe there is any chitin in the plant world, but mushrooms are made of chitin.

I feel the best way to get chitin in your soil is to be gentle and avoid tilling. Eventually you get a robust population of microarthropods, also made of chitin, only self-renewing. Kind of tough to do with containers.

 

[jaykush]

any way we could grow some sort of bug in mass, then murder them all to feed chitin to the soil/wormbin?

oops thats not vegan...

 

[DocLeaf]

any way we could grow some sort of bug in mass, then murder them all to feed chitin to the soil/wormbin?

oops thats not vegan...

perhaps it would help if we all stop breathing.. lol peace jakush

 

[mad librettist]

any way we could grow some sort of bug in mass, then murder them all to feed chitin to the soil/wormbin?

oops thats not vegan...

you could go out collecting all the discarded shells of baby cicadas, that would be vegan, right?

sort of bug afterbirth.

I wouldn't mind a pound of those suckers for the bin.

 

[IwannatokeNbone]

veganism is an experiment, nobody knows if one can be a vegan n have vegan kids whos kids kids kids all vegan mind you ,,,and turn out healthy. i say lighten up, get some worm poo deal with the reality of the ground u walk on every day of your life and its worm shit filled ness. but if u must go vegan try kelp and molasses, get some bio bloom.

 

[mad librettist]

well hang on, I thought my solution worked out. I have a big smartpot that was fed bokashi and some fresh castings. It is now full of worms, and they are putting the castings right where they are needed. Now I am not vegan, and I murder the things at least weekly, but you can use castings without killing worms if you try.

 

[Thiru Valluvar]

Let me backtrack a little, and hopefully shed some light on vegan organic. I'm not the world's expert, but here's what I do know...

mad wrote:

well I am sure vegans can keep bees. they just can't use the honey.

I'm not sure if they do keep worms or not, but they should not be harvesting castings, that is for sure. For vegans I would set them up with the worms in already in the soil, so you can feed them and use the castings without killing any. This works well with bokashi.​

Vegans wouldn't keep the bees or the worms. The reason for not using honey or worm castings is because in order to have access to those things, the animals who make them have to be held prisoner, instead of being free to pursue their own natures in their own natural environments.

You wouldn't like being held in some tiny jail cell day in day out to grow green for some prison boss, right? So vegan organic gardeners look to not imprison any creatures or make use of their "prison labour" for their grows.

CC wrote:

One working definition for 'soil' is that it is simply rotted/composted plant and animal material with shattered rock.​

and DocLeaf wrote:

Let's face it,, vegans are stupid if they deny the positive role of worms and bees in the world. Nuff said​

What nature does its own way is fine with vegans, they just aren't looking to intervene to re-create nature in any way that causes or supports the suffering and/or confinement of any creatures, even worms and bees. Of course vegan organic gardeners don't deny the vital role of bees and worms in natural systems.

CC wrote:

In looking at the information at the state's organic controlling board here, Oregon Tilth, as well as looking at sites discussing vegan farming/gardening, there is absolutely no admonition against the use of earthworm castings and as a matter of fact it is at the base of their soil management concepts.

[...]

Here's an article that is re-posted or quoted on several vegan farming/gardening sites.​

Oregon Tilth isn't a vegan organic standard, and M. Butterflies Katz who wrote the article that is just someone writing on the web who uses animal inputs, yet still calls it vegan. If you go to the Vegan Organic Network standard, you'll see the real deal:

3.5 Prohibited as main sources of fertility
(a) Products of animal or fish origin (b) Manures, slurry or urine from any animals including livestock, sanctuary animals or
domestic animals (c) Worm compost (d) Human faeces and urine (e) Human tissues (f) Sewage sludge (g) Extracted peat (h) Materials containing GMOs or their derivatives (i) Radioactive materials (j) Synthetic fertilisers (k) Soluble fertilisers as the main source of fertility​

So, in 3.5(c) worm compost (UK terminology) = worm castings (USA terminology). No go.

mad wrote:

you could go out collecting all the discarded shells of baby cicadas, that would be vegan, right?​

Not really, vegan gardening means if it is, was or came from an animal, fish or insect it's no go for the garden.



No disrespect to any of you, because I know you all contribute a lot to these forums. Having said that, I'm wondering why a lot of you seem a bit hostile toward vegan organic growing?

It's just another method like hydro or soil... vertical or stealth. Just another way to grow. Would you go on a hydro thread and say things about their silly little plastic buckets and things like that? Not that I'm saying that, but I really don't see why there seem to be so many contempt filled smirks in the air about vegan organic gardening.

For people with medical concerns, it can be some of the safest and cleanest herb out there. For people who choose to grow vegan organic, the ethical dimensions of it can feel very rewarding. Knowing that you can grow the finest green with the resourcefulness required to not use animal derived inputs and without "bad karma" feels good at the end of the day to some people. Just like growing in a scrog feels good to some, growing vertical feels good to others, and so on...

 

[schwagg]

vegan is a joke just like organic. i can buy bottles of nutes and call myself "vegan". but think about all the petro and manpower it takes to get that. what if you self support your own personal garden? i still have to buy products from here and there, but i'm working on it.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

CC wrote:



Oregon Tilth isn't a vegan organic standard, and M. Butterflies Katz who wrote the article that is just someone writing on the web who uses animal inputs, yet still calls it vegan. If you go to the Vegan Organic Network standard, you'll see the real deal:

The Vegan Organic Network has absolutely no regulatory or statutory status or powers. They're actually weaker than OMRI - no small feat.

Oregon Tilth not only is a regulatory agency within the state of Oregon but several other states have 'me too' statutes in place that basically state/mean 'We use the Oregon Tilth Certification Standards for this state'

Produce arriving at a distribution center or warehouse must be stickered with information containing not only the commodity but where it was grown, weight, pack size, etc. It also must state (under USDA NOP regulations) which certification agency that producer uses to grow their crops.

There are a few other certification agencies - Vegan Organic Network is not one of those. They're simply a group of like-thinking people who are promoting an agenda and good for them.

However good their intentions may be and regardless of how strongly they hold those beliefs it doesn't make their members or their group deciders over anything other than what goes on at their farms and gardens.

CC

 

[Thiru Valluvar]

schwagg wrote:

vegan is a joke just like organic or natural growing. i can buy bottles of nutes and call myself "vegan". but think about all the petro and manpower it takes to get that. what if you self support your own personal garden? i still have to buy products from here and there, but i'm working on it.​

We're talking on this thread about ways to use plants grown at home to make them into nutes at home too. See earlier in the thread for more details.

CC wrote:

The Vegan Organic Network has absolutely no regulatory or statutory status or powers. They're actually weaker than OMRI - no small feat.

Oregon Tilth not only is a regulatory agency within the state of Oregon but several other states have 'me too' statutes in place that basically state/mean 'We use the Oregon Tilth Statutes for this state'

There are a few other certification agencies - Vegan Organic Network is not one of those. They're simply a group of like-thinking people who are promoting an agenda and good for them.

However good their intentions may be and regardless of how strongly they hold those beliefs it doesn't make their members or their group deciders over anything other than what goes on at their farms and gardens.

CC

But vegan is vegan, and I'd say Vegan Organic Network get it right in terms of documenting fully vegan organic growing practices better than anyone else in the world (that I know of). I didn't claim they have any particular legal authority.

The thing is, I hold that it is counter to the history and legacy of the vegan culture that has been going on for nearly 200 years in the western world to say vegan organic gardening uses nothing animal based but makes an arbitrary exception for worm compost because M. Butterflies Katz does so and posts to a lot of websites and also that you happen to agree... no offense meant to you.

Take it or leave it, but Vegan Organic Network currently do the best job of articulating a comprehensive and complete vegan organic standard, in my opinion. That's what brought this thread about, Smoking Gun (the OP) looking for the best resources on vegan organic gardening.

If anyone wants to check out the full Vegan Organic Network standard it's here:

http://www.veganorganic.net/images/standards_jan2007.pdf

Peace, TV