Any T5 growers out there?

[SmokinErb]

I believe that planning is essentially the most important aspect of the grow, and so I was hoping some of you T5 guru's could help a guy out here.

I normally grow with HID lighting, however due to some unfortunate circumstances, I'll be starting my next grow from scratch - and I'm opting for a set of T5ho's. Worst comes to worst, I don't like the end product - I have a phenomenal veg/mother light.

I'll be purchasing the Quantum Badboy, 4 foot 8 lamp to run a 54"x30" cab, for only $200 - plus lamps. First of all, the fixture runs 4'x2' which would leave 3" of space from each edge to the wall of the cab. I'm hoping this isn't too large? Would the 6 lamp be a better fit? That one is 18" wide.

Also what about the lamps? I know nothing about T5's. I know there's an advantage to running a horticulture specific HPS with added spectrum over a standard $15-20 HPS used for lighting. Are there specific lamps I should be looking for? Are there any advantages to the quantum tri-phosphor lamps? They run about $60-80 for 8 bulbs where 8 TCP's would be $40 and 8 Ushio's would be $48. GE also has some higher priced T5's @ $70 for 8 bulbs.

That question however takes the back seat to the reason I'm primarily posting this. Spectrum. Everyone knows mixed spectrum is the best, but at what ratios are preferred for Veg and Flower? I was just thinking 3B:1R for veg and vice versa for flower. In other words, run 2 red bulbs during veg, and 2 blue during flower. Would that be a sufficient amount? Normally I just use CMH bulbs which kind of takes the headache out of this.

How close am I supposed to run this fixture from the canopy? I'm guessing about 4-6"?

Sorry for a lot of questions, I've just been pouring over information and I'm getting frustrated that I can't find the answers to what seems to me basic questions. Makes me feel like it's my first grow all over again.

 

[pearlemae]

I use a 2x2 8 lamp fixture due to space considerations. I've tried mixed spectrum using two red lamps 3500K with the 6500K blue lamp and reverse it for budding. my fixture is only a h n inch or so from the walls no problems. I due run a 6 inch fan in the box for heat control, without the fan the temps can get 95+ with the fan temps stay 75-80.You can run the light down to a couple inches and even closer, my plants have grown to touch the light and they don't get burnt as fast so you have a day or so to move lights or plants. Oh I use a Sunblaze fixture GE blue bulbs and Spectralux I think for the reds. I haven't tried the tri phosphers due to the price.
As for the quality of the smoke, genetics plays some part, but other wise I have a buddy growing under a 1K and 2 600 watt lamps and he likes what I grow, says he smokes it on the way home so he's ready for a beer when he gets there. Heres some pic from ent grows I've done and I have 3 albums you can check out. Feel free to ask any thing else I 'll try to answer from my experience.The last bud is the current run. Good Luck .

 

[SmokinErb]

Thanks man. I've been doing more research the whole time and I've pretty much settled for 4" being the "sweet spot" to keep the lights above the plants.

What type of yields do you pull with that 192w? How tall are those plants?

If I may suggest - look into running a perpetual SOG. I think that's probably the best way to maximize the light from a T5. No topping, just a single stalk of buds. I read one of DrBudGreengene's threads a while back and that, specifically, was what got me interested in T5's (He uses CFL's, but whatever) for a perpetual SOG.

The Dr pulls about a pound every 8 weeks using 210w CFL in 2 sqft here: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=69713

That thread right there has me convinced. I don't plan on using 20oz bottles, but I'll be grabbing some 6" pots and stuffing as many in there as I can.

 

[someotherguy]

high man, first i'd like to say that with fluorescent lights the light isn't really intense enough for reflected light to be of much use so reflectors don't do much good.

also, as someone who uses a 4 bulb, 2ft T5HO, i'd suggest you look into PL-Ls instead, mostly because you will be able to deliver more power in the same physical space, plus, any fixture you buy will have the ballast built into it, so the heat remains in your grow space, with PL-Ls you can remote the ballast outside the grow.

anyway, here's a couple pics to illustrate and if you're interested there is a PLL club thread with links to suppliers i can post up for you, just let me know.

here's a couple 55watters, and i think they are 21 inchs long.

and here you can see the bulbs, sockets and the ballast. ...note that the bulb is just like a 4ft T5 only folded in half.

if i had it to do over i wouldn't have a T5 fixture, i'd have a DIY PL-L fixture with twice the power.

peace, and stay safe, SOG

 

[pearlemae]

The tubular plant was 12/12 from seed. The plants are 25-26 inches. I have a scrog made. I just haven't used it. Probably the next run. The last run weighhed at 411 Grams from 3 plants . I've been thinking about a perpetual and have a couple smaller plants that could be put in soon.

 

[SmokinErb]

high man, first i'd like to say that with fluorescent lights the light isn't really intense enough for reflected light to be of much use so reflectors don't do much good.

also, as someone who uses a 4 bulb, 2ft T5HO, i'd suggest you look into PL-Ls instead, mostly because you will be able to deliver more power in the same physical space, plus, any fixture you buy will have the ballast built into it, so the heat remains in your grow space, with PL-Ls you can remote the ballast outside the grow.

anyway, here's a couple pics to illustrate and if you're interested there is a PLL club thread with links to suppliers i can post up for you, just let me know.

I'm interested. I can't really do a remote ballast outside of the cab due to stealth needs, however I can build a small place to store them inside the cab separate from the grow.

I've already located the PLL club thread and I'll be reading that after this post.

I do however, disagree on the reflector need. Even the small benefit is still a benefit. Reflected light is weaker, sure, but when you have the tubes a mere inches from the canopy, the reflected light still reaches the canopy. I may be wrong, but that's just my reasoning. Even at the diminished return the plants would still benefit from the extra light.

Now about the PLL's, if they're essentially a T5 folded in half, how are they better? I'd still have to purchase 8 PLL's and place 4 on each end of the cab which is essentially a 8 bulb 4 foot T5, right? Are they a more intense bulb? What precisely is the benefit of 2 PLL's vs a 4' 4 bulb T5?

I'll probably learn all of this shortly, but I figure it can't hurt to ask for now.

 

[hush]

PLL's allow you to cram more light into a space than regular T5HO's, but the t5's are much more efficient, specifically with the way the reflectors cradle each tube and reflect the light downward. I say go with T5's.

I used to grow and fflower under an 8 bulb 4 ft unit, so 432 watts, and I grew fantastic buds with fantastic yields. It was a 4' x 2' space, and I was doing 12/12 from seed, Mandala Speed Queen and White Satin, and yielding about 3/4 to an ounce per plant, in a soil bed.

The end result looked just as good as, but possibly frostier, than most buds I've ever grown under HPS. But less yield.

 

[SmokinErb]

So I went to 1000bulbs.com and figured out how much it would cost me to build a similar PLL light system.

2x Fulham Workhorse 8 ballast
8x 2G11 socket base
6x 5600k bulbs
6x 3000k bulbs

Total cost came out to approx. $320 + $12 s/h.

Seems a bit pricey to me.

 

[Ziltoid]

x

 

[someotherguy]

I'm interested. I can't really do a remote ballast outside of the cab due to stealth needs, however I can build a small place to store them inside the cab separate from the grow.

I've already located the PLL club thread and I'll be reading that after this post.

I do however, disagree on the reflector need. Even the small benefit is still a benefit. Reflected light is weaker, sure, but when you have the tubes a mere inches from the canopy, the reflected light still reaches the canopy. I may be wrong, but that's just my reasoning. Even at the diminished return the plants would still benefit from the extra light.

Now about the PLL's, if they're essentially a T5 folded in half, how are they better? I'd still have to purchase 8 PLL's and place 4 on each end of the cab which is essentially a 8 bulb 4 foot T5, right? Are they a more intense bulb? What precisely is the benefit of 2 PLL's vs a 4' 4 bulb T5?

I'll probably learn all of this shortly, but I figure it can't hurt to ask for now.

high man, first, i didn't say the PL-Ls would be 'cheaper', just better. ...i also didn't say reflected light is 'totally' useless, i just meant you get more bang for your buck adding more light with the money you'd spend on the reflector. (i actually believe if you could test with a light meter you'd find i'm probably mostly right)

oh, and as to one way in which they are better is that the 4ft T5 bulbs are 55watters i believe and that means you could put 2 PL-L bulbs in the place of 1 T5 bulb thereby doubling your power to 110watts, or 880watts in the same space as that 4ft, 8 bulb unit that puts out 430wats i think. (my 2ft T5HO bulbs are almost exactly the same length as my PL-L bulbs, but they are only 24watts, the PL-Ls are 55watts)

anyway, below i've listed a few of the cooler PL-L threads from some gifted growers, some hydro and some dirt but ALL under PL-Ls.

oh yeah, you could mount the ballast's underneath the bottom of your cab, here's a pic of my clone-box where you can see how i've mounted MY ballast.

peace, and stay safe, SOG

Preview of my pl-l micro closet.

330w Pl-l aero scrog.

Wiring TG11 Socket Remote CFL lamps

Anti's MicroStealth Cab Design (Dr. Bud Method)

 

[PacificNorthWes]

sunblazes come in 1, 2, 4, 6, 8 strip lights...And your choice of 2ft or 4 ft.. they run 260 with lamps included and last forever... If you keep the light levels in the teens or higher you wont be disappointed..

 

[Milhouse]

So I went to 1000bulbs.com and figured out how much it would cost me to build a similar PLL light system.

2x Fulham Workhorse 8 ballast
8x 2G11 socket base
6x 5600k bulbs
6x 3000k bulbs

Total cost came out to approx. $320 + $12 s/h.

Seems a bit pricey to me.

You must have been ordering the most expensive bulbs they had! I have ordered all of the above items and it has never been that expensive. You can run 4 bulbs on each ballast, i have for almost two years and never had a problem.

(2) Fulham Workhorse 8 @ $40 each = $80
(8) Sockets - coolights.biz @ $2.75 each = $22
(8) 4100k Bulbs work fine for both vegging and flowering @ $5 each = $40

add a little in for shipping but it is definitely lower than $300. I have 440 watt now and ordered from both 1000bulbs and coolights and it works great.

 

[SmokinErb]

high man, first, i didn't say the PL-Ls would be 'cheaper', just better. ...i also didn't say reflected light is 'totally' useless, i just meant you get more bang for your buck adding more light with the money you'd spend on the reflector. (i actually believe if you could test with a light meter you'd find i'm probably mostly right)

oh, and as to one way in which they are better is that the 4ft T5 bulbs are 55watters i believe and that means you could put 2 PL-L bulbs in the place of 1 T5 bulb thereby doubling your power to 110watts, or 880watts in the same space as that 4ft, 8 bulb unit that puts out 430wats i think. (my 2ft T5HO bulbs are almost exactly the same length as my PL-L bulbs, but they are only 24watts, the PL-Ls are 55watts)

anyway, below i've listed a few of the cooler PL-L threads from some gifted growers, some hydro and some dirt but ALL under PL-Ls.

oh yeah, you could mount the ballast's underneath the bottom of your cab, here's a pic of my clone-box where you can see how i've mounted MY ballast.

peace, and stay safe, SOG

Preview of my pl-l micro closet.

330w Pl-l aero scrog.

Wiring TG11 Socket Remote CFL lamps

Anti's MicroStealth Cab Design (Dr. Bud Method)

To be honest, I'm sold on the PL-L's. I'm just having a hard time walking away from my HID lighting. However, since I plan on running a perpetual SOG this run, I can see PL-L's being more effective as it spreads the light footprint around far more evenly.

From what I see, I can fit each PL-L in about 4" of space if I'm using a reflector. That being said I'd be able to fit 7 PLL's under reflectors on a single side of a 30" deep cab, 2 rows for a maximum of 14 PL-L's. Or 770w. However you can only run 3 of them on the Fulham Workhorse ballasts so I'll probably just run 12 total on 4 ballasts for 660w.

Now I'm going by Philips lumen output ratings here because they measure it at 40% of the lamps average expectancy. 3,600 lumens per bulb x 12 bulbs = 43,200 lumens or 4,320 per sqft. Seems pretty ideal. Using any other companies lumen claim I'd be at 57,600 lumens or 5,760 per sqft. It's somewhere in there, anyway.

So the cheapest workhorse 8 ballast I can find is about $200 shipped for 5 of them. 4 for flower, one for mothers/clones.

Another $200 for 10 2700k bulbs and 10 6500k bulbs. More 6500k bulbs than I want, but the minimum order is 10 unless I want to pay double the price for them. This will allow me to run 8 2700k bulbs for flower with 4 6500k bulbs for mixed spectrum.

I'd also run 4 of the 6500k on one workhorse 8 (thus voiding the warranty) for my veg room.

Comparing costs - Essentially I'll be running a 12 lamp T5HO for flower, and a 4 lamp for veg. If I was doing that with the quantum badboy I'd be paying $405 for just the fixtures and still have to buy lamps which run about $65 for 8. However there are still more expenses for the PL-L's but they're all rather petty, socket bases, cords, etc.

 

[someotherguy]

To be honest, I'm sold on the PL-L's. I'm just having a hard time walking away from my HID lighting. However, since I plan on running a perpetual SOG this run, I can see PL-L's being more effective as it spreads the light footprint around far more evenly.

these PL-L's are perfect for SOG-style growing and, because they aren't as intense as HID, you won't want to veg your clones, just root them and flip them and you'll probably average about 7 to 10 grams per plantlet in about 1liter of soil.

btw, check out those links i posted in my last post, the first 2 are to superpedro's cab where he is growing and flowering under nothing but PL-L's in a shallow water culture set-up using a bio-filter like a fish tank, very cool stuff. (he's using 2 workhorse 8's and 6x 55watt bulbs.

From what I see, I can fit each PL-L in about 4" of space if I'm using a reflector. That being said I'd be able to fit 7 PLL's under reflectors on a single side of a 30" deep cab, 2 rows for a maximum of 14 PL-L's. Or 770w. However you can only run 3 of them on the Fulham Workhorse ballasts so I'll probably just run 12 total on 4 ballasts for 660w.

just so you know, there are many of us who have run the workhorse 8 ballast with 4x 55watt bulbs, maxing it out to 220watts with no problems at all, it may void the warranty but it doesn't hurt the ballast.

Now I'm going by Philips lumen output ratings here because they measure it at 40% of the lamps average expectancy. 3,600 lumens per bulb x 12 bulbs = 43,200 lumens or 4,320 per sqft. Seems pretty ideal. Using any other companies lumen claim I'd be at 57,600 lumens or 5,760 per sqft. It's somewhere in there, anyway.

lol, sorry bro, i'm too lazy to bother with equations and shit, i just wing it, as it were.

So the cheapest workhorse 8 ballast I can find is about $200 shipped for 5 of them. 4 for flower, one for mothers/clones.

Another $200 for 10 2700k bulbs and 10 6500k bulbs. More 6500k bulbs than I want, but the minimum order is 10 unless I want to pay double the price for them. This will allow me to run 8 2700k bulbs for flower with 4 6500k bulbs for mixed spectrum.

personally, i'd just get the 4100Kelvin bulbs as they work beautifully for both vegging and flowering, ...actually, 4100K is almost exactly the spectrum you'd get from a CMH. ...check out that PL-L club thread and look at what some of the guys that are already using them are doing, i think you'll be surprised.

I'd also run 4 of the 6500k on one workhorse 8 (thus voiding the warranty) for my veg room.

lol, fuck the warranty!

Comparing costs - Essentially I'll be running a 12 lamp T5HO for flower, and a 4 lamp for veg. If I was doing that with the quantum badboy I'd be paying $405 for just the fixtures and still have to buy lamps which run about $65 for 8. However there are still more expenses for the PL-L's but they're all rather petty, socket bases, cords, etc.

believe me man, you will definitely like the PL-Ls and they are perfect for stealthy, SOG-style growing, ...for real, go check out superpedro's work, the guy is a freeken mad scientist, lol.

anyway, peace to you bro, and good luck, SOG

 

[SmokinErb]

Right on dude, I've been reading the PLL club since last night and checking out literally every single link. I was brushing up on Anti's MicroStealth cab for the time being, and I'll be checking out superdro's next.

I don't really plan to veg so much, I'm opting for 3.4 liter pots (6x6x9" square) which hold about .8 gallons of soil. I was going to use DrBudGreengenes method and use 3x3x8" pots however, this will be my first organic grow and I'm not quite yet confident in my ability to supply the rights soil mixture for such a small container. I'll be putting them in flower as soon as I see the first signs of new growth from approximately 3" clones.

As far as voiding the warranty goes, it was something I considered doing but with the set up I have in mind, I think it'd be simpler to just wire 3 lamps per ballast, 2 ballasts per side of a 46" cab. That's if I'm using reflectors. So far I've only found ONE reflector that suits PLL's and I inquired about placing an order for them separately from the kit they're sold in. If I can't get the reflector, I'll probably opt to run the additional bulb per ballast. I'll keep my fingers crossed on the reflector though.

As for the bulb Kelvin ratings, I'm looking for optimum quality. Something I'm somewhat concerned with as this will be my first CFL grow. I'm insisting on the 2700 for flower, I could look into 4100k to replace the 6500k as they'd likely be cheaper, but I guess it's more of a question of pinching pennies and sacrificing quality. Quality is the most important thing to me, and if I can spend a few more bucks to get a better product with a different K rating on the bulb, then I'll do so.

Thanks a lot for pointing me in this direction. I'm absolutely thrilled with being able to stuff more wattage in the same space. It was one of the things that raised an eyebrow when I was looking at T5ho's. I was only going to be able to fit 432w in the same cab. I could have put 800w of CMH in the same space without an issue. Still can, actually.

 

[someotherguy]

Right on dude, I've been reading the PLL club since last night and checking out literally every single link. I was brushing up on Anti's MicroStealth cab for the time being, and I'll be checking out superdro's next.

you're more than welcome man, i'm just sharing the love that was shared with me already, that's what we do brother, we help each other out, lol. ...and btw, Anti's work is top-notch, you could do WAY worse than emulating his op!

I don't really plan to veg so much, I'm opting for 3.4 liter pots (6x6x9" square) which hold about .8 gallons of soil. I was going to use DrBudGreengenes method and use 3x3x8" pots however, this will be my first organic grow and I'm not quite yet confident in my ability to supply the rights soil mixture for such a small container. I'll be putting them in flower as soon as I see the first signs of new growth from approximately 3" clones.

don't sweat that man, you definitely want to use smaller containers than that to increase your plant numbers, ...what i use is a my DIY version of Smart-Pots made from landscapers fabric and i make them to hold approximately 1 - 1.5 liters of organic soil.

here is a pic where you see 3 at week 1 and 1 at week 6, ...note the pots.

...and here you can see them up close, note the roots growing out from the pots which air-prunes them and stimulates lateral root growth within the pot.

As far as voiding the warranty goes, it was something I considered doing but with the set up I have in mind, I think it'd be simpler to just wire 3 lamps per ballast, 2 ballasts per side of a 46" cab. That's if I'm using reflectors. So far I've only found ONE reflector that suits PLL's and I inquired about placing an order for them separately from the kit they're sold in. If I can't get the reflector, I'll probably opt to run the additional bulb per ballast. I'll keep my fingers crossed on the reflector though.

lol, if you have your heart set on a reflector you might look for a builders salvage yard in your area, if you can find one you can often find some awesome deals on used fixtures, or you could make one out of Reflectix for small money.

As for the bulb Kelvin ratings, I'm looking for optimum quality. Something I'm somewhat concerned with as this will be my first CFL grow. I'm insisting on the 2700 for flower, I could look into 4100k to replace the 6500k as they'd likely be cheaper, but I guess it's more of a question of pinching pennies and sacrificing quality. Quality is the most important thing to me, and if I can spend a few more bucks to get a better product with a different K rating on the bulb, then I'll do so.

yeah, i suggested the 4100's because i believe them to be the best all-around spectrum you can use, specifically FOR quality's sake, and not because they cost less, actually, they price these bulbs by the wattage used rather than Kelvin temp. so 4100, 2700, or 6500 are all the same price.

here's a couple shots of some buds and while these were flowered under CMH and not PL-Ls, the CMH emits light at 4100Kelvin so very similar in spectrum, just a bit more powerful is all.

and here's the same plantlet trimmed and ready for chop, lol.

Thanks a lot for pointing me in this direction. I'm absolutely thrilled with being able to stuff more wattage in the same space. It was one of the things that raised an eyebrow when I was looking at T5ho's. I was only going to be able to fit 432w in the same cab. I could have put 800w of CMH in the same space without an issue. Still can, actually.

glad to help man, just remember that with the increased power comes increased heat so you'll need to bump your exhaust power a bit to compensate although with the ballasts mounted outside the cab you'll be removing a large portion of that heat from jump street anyway.

peace, SOG

 

[SmokinErb]

Hey bro, check these out: http://www.stuewe.com/products/minitreepots.php

Specifically the MT38, it measures 3x3x8", holds 58 cu in of soil. That's JUST under a liter, about 32 oz. Twice the volume of DrBud's 20 oz cut down to 16 oz pop bottles that fit the same floor space.

16 plants per sqft. 10 sq ft. 160 plants. Ohboy.

 

[rives]

Here is a link to reflectors from AH Supply. I think that you will be pretty impressed with PLL's. If you look at the SPD charts for them, you will find that all of the lamps have a broad spectrum compared to other lamp types. Even the 2700 or 3000k have lots of blue in them.

http://ahsupply.com/mcart/index.cgi?code=3&cat=9

 

[SmokinErb]

Ah shit, that is ridiculously expensive for what you get, I think its just the reflector? Maybe if it included 2g11 sockets and cords I'd spring for it, but... I can get some sheet metal and foil tape and make probably 6 reflectors for 15 bucks.

 

[rives]

The reflectors are actually pretty damn nice. If you look for the bulk Miro 4 material, you will find that it isn't cheap. I've sprung for ten of them so far between a large fixture (6 lamp) that I built, mom & veg lighting, and supplemental light for my led fixture. One thing to be careful with, the edges and corners are like razors. I take a pair of tin snips and round off the corners, and then take a sharpening steel and knock off the sharp edge. If you have access to a sheet metal brake, the following link has what appears to be a pretty nice reflector design.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=114922