Feeding Sugar Near the End

[Clackamas Coot]

Dr. Ingham is a joke IMO, but I think you know I feel that way about her. She has written so much incorrect info in the past it makes my head spin. It's not black and white with soil biota; they do use a majority of the ions they freed (i.e., solublized) during mineralization of OM, but they do not use all solublized ions, and those ions they do not used are solublized into the soil solution (ex., phosphate from mineralization of SRF).

spurr

Don't shoot the messenger..................

This may actually work out to be the eventual downfall of her reputation - we'll see.

CC

 

[mad librettist]

spurr

Don't shoot the messenger..................

This may actually work out to be the eventual downfall of her reputation - we'll see.

CC

I doubt it! Being chief scientist anywhere is a political position. She would not be where she is if she could not play politics.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

The Rodale Institute is a political entity? Do you mean like the Tea Party? Or is it more like the local Rotary Club?

I still have my doubts about the Optimists Club - hopeless optimism is the hallmark of the dark days of the Kali Yuga.

CC

 

[mad librettist]

The Rodale Institute is a political entity? Do you mean like the Tea Party? Or is it more like the local Rotary Club?

It has a board, chairman, etc... charged with setting policy. that is a political structure, yes. Chief scientist would be someone charged with bringing together various human and material resources, so good political skills and self-promotion are among the basic assets required. Actual original research or being part of the latest thing are really of negligible import. The hotshots work for you. The main tasks involve organizing, aggregating and evaluating - with the end goal of properly allocating and communicating. Science becomes the background and administration the job.

Politics is like life - inevitable if you have the ingredients handy.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

In my garage are 3 surf boards from the days of future past - so I also have a 'board' and I also have an old poster from the early 1970's of Chairman Mao.

So with a board and a chairman I can now call myself a political entity in Mad's world! Kewl!

All I need now is to begin setting policy of some kind - hmmmmmmm. How about stopping the nuking of gay whales by pre-op transsexuals? Targeted marketing is always a benefit, eh?

Thanks for sharing.

CC

 

[mad librettist]

Classic Clack. I love it!

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

So if I wanted to grow some 'Lemon Kush' which product would be the better choice?

 

[mad librettist]

mike's is not going to demolish your fucking house busting through your wall out of nowhere, plus it gets you pissed.

 

[spurr]

ah lol, it's you. I hope you and your doggies are well!

Yup, they are good

Ok, I get you, but I get Dr. Ingham's point too. If only your (1) had been happening since plants came on land, the earth would look completely different, with much less biomass above the surface and plants nothing like the ones we know.

Very true.

So although bacteria may be mineralizing some nutrients and making them available, it's not going to be enough to support cannabis because of their tendency to hang on to what they produce, which goes back to Dr. Ingham's point being functionally true if not purely correct, no?

Yup.

While we are at it, Dr. Ingham calls CO2 "mineralized carbon". Does she mean it's carbon released from an organic compound and made available to plants, or does she mean CO2 is actually a mineral?

I hope she doesn't mean CO2 is a mineral! And Co2 released by aerobic microbes does not help the plant per say, a majority of soil respiration (release of CO2) if from aerobic microbes breaking down OM (and from respiration), along with CO2 emitted by plant roots (respiration from roots).

 

[spurr]

spurr

Don't shoot the messenger..................

This may actually work out to be the eventual downfall of her reputation - we'll see.

CC

I can only hope so! She is queen of branding and marketing, but that's all she is queen of. She was booted from OSU for using OSU letterhead to send out assay reports for her then fledgling company (while using OSU labs), and she was even tenured at that point, IIRC! That in and of itself should speak volumes to Rodale about her character...as well as her lies about many types of anaerobic microbes, etc. And her deep misunderstanding about compost and the composting process.

 

[mad librettist]

I hope she doesn't mean CO2 is a mineral! And Co2 released by aerobic microbes does not help the plant per say, a majority of soil respiration (release of CO2) if from aerobic microbes breaking down OM (and from respiration), along with CO2 emitted by plant roots (respiration from roots).

ok you lost me now. I thought the greenhouse effect was started and has been maintained by bacteria pooping out CO2? I think Nitrogen came first, from lightning right? How could there possibly be enough CO2 emitted by plants, given that over its lifetime a plant collects more C than it gasses off?

Likewise, if all organic material started off as a plant, and they are carbon-neutral, where does the CO2 rich atmosphere come from? That's a whole lotta chickens and no history of eggs.

She doesn't say CO2 is a mineral, just that CO2 is mineralized C, which on one level makes sense (functional). You get to keep the poop loop model for every function the plant has. But now you have me wondering...

 

[spurr]

I hope she doesn't mean CO2 is a mineral! And Co2 released by aerobic microbes does not help the plant per say, a majority of soil respiration (release of CO2) if from aerobic microbes breaking down OM (and from respiration), along with CO2 emitted by plant roots (respiration from roots).

ok you lost me now. I thought the greenhouse effect was started and has been maintained by bacteria pooping out CO2? I think Nitrogen came first, from lightning right? How could there possibly be enough CO2 emitted by plants, given that over its lifetime a plant collects more C than it gasses off?

The greenhouse effect, re Co2 (and not other gases that also affect greenhouse effect) is not to what I was referring. Soil (and soilless) respiration is made up of a few components, most notability Co2 from various types of bacteria breaking down OM and their respiration, and from respiration by plant roots. I am not sure why you brought up greenhouse gases/greenhouse effect; can you elaborate on your line of thought?

Likewise, if all organic material started off as a plant, and they are carbon-neutral, where does the CO2 rich atmosphere come from? That's a whole lotta chickens and no history of eggs.

Excluding human sources like coal-fired power plants, Co2 in the atmosphere comes from volcanic eruptions, wild fires, soil respiration, etc.

 

[mad librettist]

The greenhouse effect, re Co2 (and not other gases that also affect greenhouse effect) is not to what I was referring. Soil (and soilless) respiration is made up of a few components, most notability Co2 from various types of bacteria breaking down OM and their respiration, and from respiration by plant roots. I am not sure why you brought up greenhouse gases/greenhouse effect; can you elaborate on your line of thought?




Excluding human sources like coal-fired power plants, Co2 in the atmosphere comes from volcanic eruptions, wild fires, soil respiration, etc.

I brought up the greenhouse effect because in the history of the planet I was taught, before bacteria there was no such thing, and the atmosphere was caustic. 'Twas the eating of the older brand of microbes by the newer brand of microbes that made the atmosphere what it is: an atmosphere containing C and able to support plants. This also regulated our climate via the greenhouse effect.

The saying goes, if bacteria/archea disappeared, our atmosphere would soon revert to a caustic and barren one.

See, if you step back far enough, you have to account for C in the atmosphere, which could not be there if its major source were breaking down organic matter above ground and wildfires, since all that carbon came from the air. How can carbon in the air be the source for carbon in the air?

I am not sure volcanoes emit enough CO2 to account for the atmosphere. As far as I know there are no giant CO2 deposits like there are with methane and other natural gases. it's hard to imagine a scenario that can trap the gas but still support aerobic life. My guess is if you dig you find methane, not CO2. To look for CO2, the ocean is a better bet (carbonic acid).

back to the mineral thing, interesting to note CO2 dissolves readily into water, which I believe is how sugar is made. that's kind of acting like a mineral, no?

 

[spurr]

I am not sure volcanoes emit enough CO2 to account for the atmosphere. As far as I know there are no giant CO2 deposits like there are with methane and other natural gases. it's hard to imagine a scenario that can trap the gas but still support aerobic life. My guess is if you dig you find methane, not CO2. To look for CO2, the ocean is a better bet (carbonic acid).

Volcanic eruptions do account for some Co2 in the air in today's world, not a large percent, but not nil, either. Forest fires and volcanic eruptions millions of years ago (ex., Permian Period), are what caused the Co2 to make up a large percent of gasses, around 2,000 ppm.

See this basic, yet good page for more info:

"Geologic and Biological Timeline of the Earth"
http://www.scientificpsychic.com/etc/timeline/timeline.html
​

back to the mineral thing, interesting to note CO2 dissolves readily into water, which I believe is how sugar is made. that's kind of acting like a mineral, no?

Co2 + water = carbonic acid; that is (mostly) where acid rain comes from.

 

[mad librettist]

Volcanic eruptions do account for some Co2 in the air in today's world, not a large percent, but not nil, either. Forest fires and volcanic eruptions millions of years ago (ex., Permian Period), are what caused the Co2 to make up a large percent of gasses, around 2,000 ppm.

See this basic, yet good page for more info:

"Geologic and Biological Timeline of the Earth"
http://www.scientificpsychic.com/etc/timeline/timeline.html
​

Co2 + water = carbonic acid; that is (mostly) where acid rain comes from.

this is from someone's class notes

The most common source of acidity in water is dissolved carbon dioxide.

Carbon dioxide enters the water through equilibrium with the atmosphere

CO2 (aq) � CO2 (g)

and biological degradation/photosynthesis involving organic carbon, {CH2O}

{CH2O} + O2(aq) � CO2 (aq) + H2O

I'm not really sure what all that means lol. Bit I am pretty sure CO2 has to be in a liquid state to make sugar (and acid rain).


the page you posted though, supports my version of events, not yours. Here's a grade ten lesson plan from ohio that exlpains why. . It's simply called "bacteria change the earth's atmosphere". No whining about the source, I'm sure Ohio has a good chief scientist

excerpt. I don't know about calling them "archeobacteria" or giving them a kingdom, but the relationship to the atmosphere seems right to me:

Background Information:
All living organisms must obtain a source of energy in order to carry out life processes.
Bacteria are the simplest known life forms. The most ancient bacteria forms
(archaeobacteria) can use the chemical energy in hydrogen sulfide or other inorganic
molecules to provide that energy (chemosynthetic). Fossil evidence shows that cyanobacteria
have existed on Earth for about 3 billion years. Cyanobacteria were able to use the
electromagnetic energy of light to manufacture organic molecules through the process known
as photosynthesis. The organic molecules contained chemical energy the cyanobacteria could
use. The oxygen gas that was produced is poisonous to many of the anaerobic bacteria.

 

[Microbeman]

That's from Dr. Ingham's page

except the archaea, that's from Dr. Wilson's page.

Here is what Dr. Ingham says about Archaea; Archea do not convert nutrients into plant available forms however. Archea is a name for a proposed kingdom of bacteria.

Hahahahahaha......Proposed.....hahahahahahah; the point is that archaea are not bacteria...they are distinct and have their own branch on the Tree of Life.

 

[Microbeman]

Yup, that happens, and looking over some studies I have, I see you are correct in that microbes using N while trying to breakdown the C rich bark is the major cause of N loss; my memory is failing me . However, the bark itself also absorbs N when the bark is young/fresh.

"Using Bark and Sawdust for Mulches, Soil Amendments and Potting Mixes"
University of Idaho, CIS number 858

Of course...you don't think I'd be wrong do you?

 

[Microbeman]

A plant gets ions by three main paths: (1) mineralization of ions from OM by microflora freed into the soil solution; (2) mineralization of ions from OM by roots freed into the soil solution; and (3) ions freed during, and after predation (i.e., mineralization of microflora). Granted, number two provides the least amount of ions, but it does provide ions to the soil solution. Number three is the major source of ions for plants, yet number one does provide considerable about of ions to plants.

#4 direct injection intercellularly probably only by fungi but we don't know everything yet.

 

[Microbeman]

Heavy applications of sugar can reduce nematode counts.

Might have some effect when growing outdoors in natural soils. Doubt if it would be beneficial at all indoors in custom made soils on such a short cycle crop.

What kind of nematodes Grapeman? (eg bacterial, root, feeders)

 

[Microbeman]

It has a board, chairman, etc... charged with setting policy. that is a political structure, yes. Chief scientist would be someone charged with bringing together various human and material resources, so good political skills and self-promotion are among the basic assets required. Actual original research or being part of the latest thing are really of negligible import. The hotshots work for you. The main tasks involve organizing, aggregating and evaluating - with the end goal of properly allocating and communicating. Science becomes the background and administration the job.

Politics is like life - inevitable if you have the ingredients handy.

Unfortunately very correct.