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Bill Zeller, Princeton Grad student who took his own life, powerful suicide letter

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lockehead

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Oh really? Well, Mr. know it all about SOTF420, since I have to "qualify" myself to you - I have been in such sorrow and despair and lost everything I ever had before, been homeless, jobless, car-less, no woman, no food, no money...I was at the point of blowing my brains out and the only thing that ever saved me was my faith and my life DID make a miraculous 360 degree turn-around because I held on and stayed strong so don't judge me motherfucker because I am still here and fighting to stay alive and find happiness, that's what I promote not suicide and giving up. Thanks for asking though and my childhood was even worse and we will leave it at that. I am really amazed at your continuing support of suicide, very sad.


Also, I guess you are calling Gypsy ignorant too huh? nice.

Sounds like your biggest problem was having no money.

I guess its just a matter of perspective. Yeah Gypsy said he wouldnt had killed himself but hes speaking from the mentality that he has right now, not a mentality he'd have if he went through the same thing. You can try to imagine what you'd do if you were in his place, but un less you actually went through it you dont know how itd affect you mentally. Like Motaco brought up, what about those who go into war and see a bunch of shit that fucks them up psychologically? You just gonna tell them to get over it and stop being pussies and live life and be happy? From what i see in your events that you described, your troubles were financial troubles. I dont think thatd be as emotionally, spiritually, physically, sexually, and mentally scarring as being raped repeatedly when you were 4 years old, and then left to deal with it on your own as you grew up.

Everybody has their own vision of the world, depending on how they grew up their life experiences shape their view. Its not the same for everyone. I might see the world through my own eyes, but you might view it a different way. So like i said you never know how someone else sees the world unless youve been through what theyve been through, then you could better understand where theyre coming from. Something like walking a mile in their shoes before judging them.
 

SOTF420

Humble Human, Freedom Fighter, Cannabis Lover, Bre
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Never judged him really, just the final and last bad choice he made. Unfortunately, that will be HIS legacy and it doesn't really matter what anything thinks after the fact because he took himself out of the game. Again, God have MERCY on his soul.
 
I'd rather condemn a senseless selfish self-imposed death rather than support it and encourage anyone else to even for a second think that path is a reasonable option.
Suicide is not necessarily a selfish act; it is oft-referred to in the medical community as an act of desperation. To the meat of it: you live in a black and white world. Intellectually serious people see shades. You don't have to forcefully "condemn" a self-imposed death, nor do you have to celebrate it. The calls for a more nuanced approach to the host of medical issues at play here bypass your capacity for reason for precisely this reason.
I'm going to fuck my girlfriend, smoke some good herb, sleep in a big nice cozy bed and think about happy thoughts despite all the imperfections and bad shit I have had happen in my life but now if I followed the cowards logic I would have ended it all a long time ago and never paddled my way out of the shitholes we sometimes find ourselves in at various stages in life.
You're just sort of treading the same line here, which stems from the ignorant predisposition that all humans have essentially the same psychological make-up. Therefore you are in a place of condemnation without considering all the fancy-shmancy book-learnin types who tell you that advances in medicine and biology increasingly tell us how little "control" (in the macro sense) we have, and how different we all are. Compassion here isn't a serious thought for you, because you can only see this boy through your own lense; an obvious and increasingly common mistake the under-educated make.
There is an important lesson here to be learned the positive message to be sent out is..(in terms everyone can understand) Don't kill yourself because it's just plain fucking stupid and it does far more harm and damage than you can imagine. If you think you are gonna do it, call the cops on yourself or a suicide hotline, anything you can do to get help and survive the urge. You are here to live as long as possible and make the best of your life which is the most precious gift God gave you (along with Cannabis) Things can always be worse but they can always get better NO MATTER WHAT. :wave:
There are infinite situations in which suicide becomes the moral action.

There is no purpose, and if there is, it certainly isn't "to live as long as possible." That's just something you made up to self-justify your un-scientific prejudices.

There is no god.

Life is not necessarily a precious gift.

Dismissed.

I had forgotten about this thread, but chose to take you to task- instead of just rolling my eyes and moving on with a one-liner as most have- only because you decided to send me red dots in the past hour. I can't help but think you are a psychologically traumatized individual; mentally stable people would not send their peers red negative dots on the internet 2 days after a trite conversation.

I'm reaching out to you here: stop the god nonsense, see a psychiatrist, and take a physics course at your local community college. It's the best path for an adult-child who smugly talks about "god" and thinks we have a purpose to kick it at Applebees and baseball games for 100 years.
 

Madrus Rose

post 69
Veteran
Suicide is not necessarily a selfish act; it is oft-referred to in the medical community as an act of desperation. To the meat of it: you live in a black and white world. Intellectually serious people see shades.

I had forgotten about this thread, but chose to take you to task- instead of just rolling my eyes and moving on with a one-liner as most have- only because you decided to send me red dots in the past hour. I can't help but think you are a psychologically traumatized individual; mentally stable people would not send their peers red negative dots on the internet 2 days after a trite conversation.

I'm reaching out to you here: stop the god nonsense, see a psychiatrist, and take a physics course at your local community college. It's the best path for an adult-child who smugly talks about "god" and thinks we have a purpose to kick it at Applebees and baseball games for 100 years.

Was more or less taken back & repulsed with witnessing this poster's callous disregard of human compassion or sympathy as well . Even if he was just "kickin it" on the forums , after all the hypocritical moral indignant diatribes on the preciousness of life & phony religious posturing , his last impotent act was a feeble insincere & spurious wave of his hand to say :

"your history & a loser pal , may god have mercy on your soul " .

Without meaning a shred of it . Completely agree with your assessment that this fellow needs to seek counciling . He may think he loves the sound of his own voice & take pride in his ignorant prejudces & venting his indignant fury , i found his postings utterly repugnant . Sad to have even had to read this thread , sad for the victim & sad for thos that have life & condemn others so easily from a perch that's in reality , not that --> "high" .

there but for fortune , go you or go i ...

best regards

mrose
 

RudolfTheRed

Active member
Veteran
Always thought this was a more powerful suicide note.... still miss him

No More Games. No More Bombs. No More Walking. No More Fun. No More Swimming. 67. That is 17 years past 50. 17 more than I needed or wanted. Boring. I am always bitchy. No Fun -- for anybody. 67. You are getting Greedy. Act your old age. Relax -- This won't hurt. --Hunter S. Thompson
 

MagicChef

Member
I think we've lost track of what really happened here. Can we try to remember that everyone 'feels' things differently. This man made a choice, and that choice was his. He felt he had permanently lost the core values and happinesses in life. Maybe if he would have opened up and talked he may have been saved, but that is not what he wanted. He had brains. He was not affected by drugs or alcohol. I may not agree that he made the right choice but Im not going to post on here about how 'selfish' he is or so on. I cant for one minuite imagine what that must have been like. That was a powerful, dark letter that I will remember for a long time. I will definately remember it the next time Im stuck in traffic with a slurpee cursing how bad my day at my job was and how shitty my life is. I hope you are in a better place now, and you feel the happiness that you never knew.:)
 

!!!

Now in technicolor
Veteran
Powerful letter indeed. It's truly sad to see a smart young person go like this.

I truly feel that psychology and psychiatry are both very far behind due to the snail paced research being done on entheogens and empathogens for dealing with personal issues, relationship issues and PTSD (MDMA and methylone in particular.)

But I don't agree with him about doctors not being able to keep secrets. Most doctors don't give a shit about you (they're human beings just earning a living) but just letting somebody hear your story really does help, even if they can't do anything but listen. Everyone should have a counselor/psychologist to speak to, if not a group of very close friends.
 

MagicChef

Member
MDMA does have a place in healing. I do warn whoever is considering taking MDMA that it is powerful on many levels and its important to not take large doses or frequently. I first tried MDMA 10 years ago and imediately fell in love with the drug. My willingness to open up to others around me felt great as well as the feeling of togetherness with the people I surrounded myself with. Needless to say I took too much, too often and still feel the effects today. ( I have only taken it a couple times in the last few years.) I feel my ability to cope and deal with emotions is difficult as well as often feeling lonely even if Im surrounded by friends. Like there is something missing. I have formed special bonds with people through intense conversation, and that is important. MDMA is such a wonderful drug as longs as its not abused. If you take small to moderate doses, less frequently ( 1-2 a year tops) it will almost always be a special experience. If taken too often you will be chasing a powerful high like the first time you took it, and it wont be there. I guess what Im trying to say is that yes, MDMA is a good tool for some therapy, I also think its a dangerous drug and should be taken seriously. Peace!
 

Greensub

Active member
I thought awhile before posting in this thread...

I read that letter the first night it was posted here and then have ignored the thread till now. I haven't read the thread since and I'm not sure I want to after reading this last page. I don't know what you guys are arguing about so this post may seem incongruous.

I just wanted to relate my experience with suicidal thoughts & dealing with my fiance's multiple attempted suicides. Can't say I've talked to many people about it... it's not some thing you throw out at a cocktail party.

I basically had a nervous breakdown when I was around 30 (12th year of college)... It was a collusion of reason's... Brain damage, depression, anxiety, ADD... I was living in the equivalent of "a van... down by the river". I can remember thinking about blowing my brains nightly... the turn of the cylinder in slow motion & the hammer pulling back, I could envision it. I'm just too stubborn though, I always held on & told myself it would get better in the future... and it did... slowly. I had a pretty ok childhood though... nothing heavy like this guy... well I had mental disabilities he may or may not have had (it isn't clear.

I've been woken up by my fiance after she sliced her wrists saying she did it this time, been called home from work a second time for the same reason, and have found her on the floor from taking all the pills in the room. I'm not sure I should mention all the bad thing's she's gone through in her life... even if this is anonymous... I would say it was worse than what he endured in fact (if you can imagine that). Now that she wants to live... she may be dying, we've been to the hospital about 6 times last year, she may need an organ transplant.

I don't know what argument is goin' on here, I don't know what side of it I would be on... but I can understand someone wanting to suicide. There are a lot of physical & psychological things that can screw up your brain.
 

Madrus Rose

post 69
Veteran
I've been woken up by my fiance after she sliced her wrists saying she did it this time, been called home from work a second time for the same reason, and have found her on the floor from taking all the pills in the room. I'm not sure I should mention all the bad thing's she's gone through in her life...

I don't know what argument is goin' on here, I don't know what side of it I would be on... but I can understand someone wanting to suicide. There are a lot of physical & psychological things that can screw up your brain.

And one could certainly have some feelings of sympathy & compassion for just what u shared here of your girl . There are a plethora of psychological , pathological & physiological conditions that lead a person to dark depression which is not for anyone to judge or condemn . This is a major affliction in society & a critical illness that requires the kind of intensive treatments that unfortunately did not work for this one hapless fellow .

One doesn't just look at the incidents of molestation when he was young when he was a victim of years of dark depression that ensued, the toll of which no one of us can imagine . Especially when he had one intollerant , emotionally distant & unbelievably unforgiving type of conservative idiot for a father . He was thrown out of the house at 19 & still managed a degree from Princeton.

Depression is an far reaching illness & even many of the most strong, well situated & seemingly successful persons are just as susceptable to falling prey to it . There's a lesson from everyman or woman's plight trying to deal & combat with this very real illness in their lives , that everyone of us could take lessons from .

* Personally i take offense when someone from these forums , who spends most of their time playing the "Four Words Game" comes on a sensitive thread dealing with something so real as mental depression with some coarse, ignorant homophobic rant & backing it up with some stupid twisted religious sanctity of life bullshit . The post below & his ensuing posts were what personally flamed me . He should just stick to the Four Words Game & other mindless threads on the forums and their bantering bullshit .

We did at least discover another person who needs help here and thats the poster below , who himself gets an epic "Fail" ...

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=200137&page=2
Okay my feelings honestly here?

I felt bad for the kid until I got halfway through the book and realized what a whiny little bitch he is, so smart but yet so retarded. I don't give a fuck what happened, there is no excuse for taking your own life and he bought himself a one way ticket to hell worse than any hell he "thought" he was living here while alive. I have zero sympathy for him and the coward did not even identify the supposed rapist after all that? I call bullshit, I'm guessing he was gay and just could not deal with it and the over zealous religious fanatic parents. He dedicated a paragraph to telling everyone he was not gay, kinda suspect.

Good looking guy, brains, money, success, girls, takes own life? EPIC FAIL!

Guess what kid, life ain't perfect or fair and you don't always get dealt a perfect hand!

I have been through the depths of hell and back myself and there is absolutely NO way I am taking my own life, I would rot in prison for the rest of my days before I take the precious life God gave me and if you don't feel the same way you need to get your mind right because you only have one life to live and this shit ain't no trial run mang!

May God have mercy on his soul.
 

Madrus Rose

post 69
Veteran
WOW... I don't know that I'll keep up with this thread.


And there's another "epic Troll" who lives on the forums & is consistently full of daily useless repetitive cr@p . Best to identify some these Trolls early on in your experience here & avoid them & their useless baiting BS .

jmho

best regards ,

ஜ۩۞۩ஜmroseஜ۩۞۩ஜ
 

SOTF420

Humble Human, Freedom Fighter, Cannabis Lover, Bre
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Well without falling into the pits of your despair and personal attacks, I can assure you that *some* of the people in this thread most likely can look forward to a long hard life of struggle and expected disappointment with those self-defeatist pessimistic attitudes on life and views on God. I'll go back to my 4 words game, you are absolutely right that's all I do! Crazy kids! :bigeye:

ps: I 1000% stand by my posts and feelings on the matter so don't kill yourself's please, it's not the right thing to do and you will never convince me otherwise! You want compassion for a dead weak person that has ceased to exist now BY HIS OWN HAND? No.

Keep drinking that kool-aid! :crazy:
 
All i have to say is that some of you who are so quick to judge this man just based on this letter he left... you are fucking idiots. I dont care that your poppa whipped you with a belt, that doesnt mean you understand what HE has gone through. You can never understand what anyone has gone through fully.

It is very sad that he chose to end his life in this way, and for you to make a mockery of his plight and compare it to your own lives... Well, that just goes to show you how short-sighted humanity is and that we will never achieve anything.

I hope his pain ended. I know what it is like to carry a seemingly undying pain. But that does not mean I will cross-examine his pain with mine and call him 'weak' minded.

In actuality his mind was likely many times stronger than those of you saying that.

Get a fuckin grip people, don't denounce someone because you think you could have done a better job in his shoes. The reality is, you probably couldn't have.

We need more people like him (intelligent, selfless, caring). Instead we have a world full of ignorant fucks who are too stubborn to remove themselves from our earth.


SOTF420, I dont think anyone is demanding your compassion for anything, its probably not worth much. I think they were just a bit perturbed the way you starting spouting off ignorant shit like some asshole. When in reality we all know its impossible to know what others have experienced.

I dont think anyone here is attempting to condone suicide, thought it isn't inherently an immoral choice either, you probably just think so because of your imaginary friend in the sky.
 
I read the notes, seem like the kid got a great heart but a weak mind,,,,

I know plenty of kids got treated worsen then him, and they didnt have the thing he had

in life, let alone food to eat. But they strive to survive, move on and make something

outta themselves ,,,, its a permanent scar, but dont quit life because of it

Theres an old saying : suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem ..

Life can get better and always will, as long as you want it to be.

rest in peace kiddo

Fo20.
 

Madrus Rose

post 69
Veteran
ps: I 1000% stand by my posts and feelings on the matter so don't kill yourself's please, it's not the right thing to do and you will never convince me otherwise! You want compassion for a dead weak person that has ceased to exist now BY HIS OWN HAND? No.

Well its a little late for him but not our chance to try & learn something here in some compassionate informational way ...something might touch our hearts collectively .

Suicide takes on many forms , depression hits a wide variety of peoples from all walks of life ...from this young princeton grad to army generals & navy commanders & army grunts ...politicians & priests. Life can be a cruel mistress to many & all of us but especially none of us are in that special high seat to judge what impossible sufferings some people can come to in their own minds subjectively ...there's an immense complexity here in each person's example to think you can judge so easily....so preemptively .

Keep drinking that kool-aid! :crazy:

As for this kool aid remark stick to the Four Words Game ...or should someone remind u of Jonestown or Waco texas .Do u really need a link ?

So best to you my friend but spare me the simplistic puerile "God talk", & its phony black N white superiority...may respond to the rest later but have a life & a few things to accomplish & hurdles to traverse of my own this day .
Just like you must have ...as we all have .

best regards ,

mrose
 

Greensub

Active member
I also heard another story through an old friend of mine... apparently she knew someone who shot himself playing russian roulette while drunk.

If that was the type of situation we had here... I could see the comments being germane to the conversation.

Also... I wonder if he was on any medication as well that could have contributed.

I'm not against psychiatric medications (they saved my life), but I had a good doctor & did a bunch of research about it too. I have a very equal kind of relationship with my psychiatrist... usually we're thinking along the same lines as far as treatment.

Alternatively... My fiance was stuck with a horrible county doctor, he started her on one drug, increased it right away, and when that didn't work added a second, a third, fourth, and even fifth medication without ever taking her off the previous ones. When I found out I couldn't believe it. Really it was malpractice, I'm sure it's contributed to her possible liver failure, but it also contributed to her suicide attempts.

[psychiatric med commentary]

If you decide to take any... always start on the smallest dose possible, really... even break it in half... or even quarters. Individuals have a variance of up to 4000% in how they metabolize and are affected by medication. (according to the FDA). Doctor's who start things at at these really low levels see less instances of side effects and have a higher percentage rate of success overall.

You see... Big Pharma would love to make one size fits all pills (it's cheaper... more profitable)

Do you remember the 4000% number? See the inherent problem?

Also remember that you won't feel the full effects of these medications (SSRI's, SNRI's) for a full two months. It takes that long for your neural-chemical receptors to re-regulate their sensitivity.

These are different than other drugs... (MORE IS NOT BETTER), If you take a small dosage and adjust to it over 2 months and feel better, don't think that upping the dose will make you feel even better. It doesn't work that way, too much and you'll get Hyperserotonemia.

https://health.google.com/health/ref/Serotonin+syndrome

But before you get that... just too high a dose will leave you feeling lethargic & depressed again. It's a delicate balance.

[/psychiatric med commentary]

OK... where was I, Sorry for the rant... It's just something some people need to know... and they might be reading this thread.

I'm not saying he needed meds... it sounds like his demons were more psychological in nature. It also sounds as if he had absolutely no emotional support from his family, I don't think he was that capable of even making deep friendships, let alone a loving relationship.

I could see where a general practitioner could have asked him, and he said he's not feeling too happy & just getting some of these meds handed out like candy with no proper supervision. Something like this could just be a huge mistake waiting to happen. I don't remember if he said anything about it in his letter, but it wouldn't surprise me if he had explored that option.
 
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