Arizona Congresswoman Shot, 6 dead, 12 wounded

[cashmunny]

One almost could draw the parallel of "mental midget inbreeding" with these biblically crazed maroons ... but the conservative christian coalition really has had their last waltz in America or is coming very near it . The more they rear their heads in public on any of the major issues , politics, even natural disasters & so called "acts of God " like Haiti or Katrina... they have usually done more harm to their "God-cause" than any Atheist or Pantheist or liberal secular groups could ever do .

Europe has gone completely secular now the clock is ticking in America for these throwbacks . Yummybuds & yummybud heaven , lol, but not nice or
funny people really. Hopefully natural social evolution weeds & thins them out eventually .

Now let's not forget the part we all speak in tongues
& pass the rattlesnakes !

I'm not as optimistic as you are. I don't know where you live but the middle of the country is VERY different than the coasts, especially the bible belt. I think the conservative christian movement is still very powerful. Mike Huckabee will surely run for the Republican nomination in 2012 and stands a decent chance of getting it. In which case there is the possibility that the leader of the free world and of the most powerful nation the earth has ever seen will also be a person who believes that dinosaurs walked the earth with man 25,000 years ago.

But the education system in this country is so pitiful, it's no wonder so many people believe an old Jewish book of fairy tales.

I'm with Christopher Hitchens, religion poisons everything.

 

[mriko]

Arizona assassination spree tied to political right

By Bill Van Auken
WSWS
Monday, Jan 10, 2011

Mounting evidence has linked the 22-year-old gunman who severely wounded Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, killed a federal judge and killed or wounded 18 others in Tucson, Arizona to the political right.

According to a memo issued by the Department of Homeland Security in the aftermath of the shooting spree at a Tucson, Arizona strip mall Saturday, Internet activity by the gunman, Jared Lee Loughner, linked him to American Renaissance, which DHS described as an “anti-government, anti-immigration, anti-ZOG [Zionist Occupation Government], anti-Semitic.” The online publication of the organization advocates white supremacy and racial separation.

Giffords was critically wounded in the hail of gunfire unleashed by Loughner as the Democratic Congresswoman was holding a “Congress on the corner” event, meeting with constituents outside a local supermarket. Killed in the attack were federal Judge John Roll, Gifford’s aide Gabe Zimmerman, a nine-year-old girl, Christina Green, and three others.

Doctors voiced “cautious optimism” about Giffords’ prognosis after surgery for what they described as a “devastating wound.” She was reported to be in a medically induced coma Sunday night.

Loughner was charged in a federal indictment issued Sunday on first degree murder charges for the killing of Judge Roll and Gabe Zimmerman and the attempted murder of Congresswoman Giffords and two other of her aides. He is to appear in court today on the charges, which carry the federal death penalty. The gunman will face state charges in relation to the other victims who were not US government employees.

Judge Roll, who was the chief federal judge in Arizona, was himself the subject of hundreds of death threats in 2009 when he presided over a case brought on behalf of undocumented immigrants against an Arizona rancher. Vilified by right-wing talk show hosts in the state, Roll received hundreds of calls threatening to kill him and his family. “They said, ‘We should kill him. He should be dead,’” US Marshal David Gonzales told the Arizona Republic. Roll and his family were placed under 24-hour protection.

Speaking in Tucson Sunday, FBI Director Robert Mueller said that he did not believe any “specific threat remains” after the shooting, but that he did not “preclude that additional charges may be brought under the domestic terrorism statutes as the investigation continues.”

Investigators reported that a search of Loughner’s home uncovered an envelope with the words “My assassination”, “I planned ahead” and “Giffords”, together with what appeared to be Loughner’s signature. Also found in the house was a letter from Giffords thanking Loughner for attending a previous “Congress on the corner” in 2007.

Various classmates and neighbors have described Loughner as a loner who exhibited erratic behavior and signs of emotional and mental instability that led him to be suspended from a local community college last fall. Authorities demanded that he present a mental evaluation confirming that he did “not present a danger to himself or others” before he would be readmitted.

The gunman had attempted to enlist in the Army in December 2008, but was rejected. The media quoted unnamed sources as saying that he failed a drug test.

While he had a record of minor criminal charges, he was able to buy the Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol used in the shooting after passing an FBI background check.

Material posted by Loughner on the Internet included rambling and incoherent references to “conscience dreaming” and sleep walking. Intermixed with these seemingly irrational observations was rhetoric that appeared to have been absorbed from the stock in trade of the political right.

In a YouTube video posting consisting of scrolling text and music, Loughner railed against the “second constitution”, a term used by the political right to refer to the post-Civil War 13th Amendment banning slavery and the 14th Amendment guaranteeing citizenship to all those born in the US and equal protection under the law in every state.

On the eve of Loughner’s shooting spree, Republicans in the US Congress launched a vitriolic campaign seeking the scrapping of the 14th Amendment in order to deny the right to citizenship for children born to undocumented immigrants within the US. Arizona has been an epicenter of this reactionary anti-immigrant campaign. The incoming Republican leader of the Arizona State Senate, Russell Pearce, who authored the state law criminalizing immigrants without papers—since blocked by a federal court—is pushing this year for a state law denying citizenship to babies born to the undocumented and is leading a campaign nationally to promote similar legislation in other states.

Similarly, the YouTube video included the declaration, “No! I won’t pay debt with a currency that’s not backed by gold and silver.” This is a standard theme sounded by Fox News commentator Glenn Beck and others on the extreme right, who have joined to their reactionary ideology the promotion of gold sales as a lucrative side business.

Whatever Loughner’s mental issues, it is readily apparent that his violent actions were prepared and guided by right-wing political forces that openly promote and legitimize violence against their opponents. These forces have in turn been amplified far beyond any genuine popular base by the media network of Fox owner Rupert Murdoch and elements such as the Koch brothers and other wealthy financiers who have poured vast amounts of money into promoting the Tea Party and other phony political fronts for the extreme right.

Among the most frank and forthright in explaining this connection to the vicious crime was given by the seven-term sheriff of Pima County, Clarence Dupnik, who was leading the local investigation. In the immediate aftermath of the shooting, he denounced “the vitriol and rhetoric that we hear day in and day out from the people in the radio business and some people in the TV business”.

The sheriff’s remarks stood in sharp contrast to the response of so-called liberal Democrats from President Barack Obama and other elected officials to television commentators who, in their vast majority, cautioned against drawing any political conclusions other than the need for “civility.”

Dupnik cited previous attacks launched against Giffords over issues such as health care legislation and immigration. A former Republican, Giffords joined the conservative Blue Dogs Democratic caucus, but voted with the party leadership on these issues.

“Some of the vitriol got a lot of people very agitated,” said Dupnik. “There is no doubt in my mind that when a number of people night and day try to influence the public, there is going to be some consequences.”

“When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government—the anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country, is getting to be outrageous,” he continued. “And unfortunately, Arizona, I think, has become the capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry.”

The state has seen the increasing activity of vigilante white supremacist groups drawn to the border with Mexico in the hunt for undocumented immigrants. There is ample evidence that Giffords, the first Jewish woman elected to Congress in Arizona, was hated by these fascistic elements.

Last year, someone dropped a handgun at one of her public events, while an unknown attacker shot out the glass door to her campaign office.

Giffords was targeted by the Republican right in the 2010 elections and won a third term only by a 1 percent margin in the majority Republican district. Her political survival was a source of considerable frustration for the Republican right, which managed to oust Democrats in most other so-called swing districts.

Her opponent, Tea Party favorite and former Marine Jesse Kelly, had organized an event inviting supporters to join him in firing M16 assault weapons as part of the campaign to “help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office.”

In the course of the election campaign, right-wing protesters would gather weekly near her office carrying signs with slogans such as “It’s time to reload” and “One way or another, you’re gone.”

During the campaign, former Alaska governor Sarah Palin put up a web page that included Gifford among 19 other Democratic members of Congress whose districts were shown with a sniper sight’s crosshairs super-imposed upon them.

At the time, Giffords condemned the tactic, warning “When people do that, they have got to realize there are consequences to that action.” In response to such criticism, Palin replied on twitter, “Don’t retreat, reload.”

After the Tucson shootings, Palin’s web site removed the page, while an aide claimed incredibly that the crosshairs were not meant to represent a rifle sight, but rather a “surveyor’s symbol.”

Patricia Maisch, a 61-year-old woman whose actions in grabbing an ammunition magazine from Loughner as he was attempting to reload has been credited with helping to prevent an even more horrific massacre, was interviewed Sunday night on Fox News. Anchor Shepherd Smith asked her if she had any “words of hope” based on her experience.

“I don’t think so,” she responded. “Extreme right reporters on radio and TV have added to this problem. The extreme right has gone too far.”

Similarly, Congresswoman Gifford’s father, when asked if his daughter had any enemies, replied, “The whole Tea Party.”

From : http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_61999.shtml

Irie !

 

[HempKat]

I heard he was a US military recruiter, who rambled on about the CIA MKUltra expiraments. And now they demonize gun owners, liberals, and the schedule 1 substance list because people are looking for something to blame. The guy was a nut, plain and simple, he went off his rocker and killed people. Sure, he was a conspiracy theorest - so what, he was a gun owner too, should we go around and point fingers saying "to hell with this or that", or should we realize that some people go off their rocker?...

I also heard that he was shot by a civilian, who legally owned and carried his firearm.

And now everybody here wants to say "hang the conspiracy theorists!" Well, read the patriot act, and take it to heart. And you say that America is unchanged, well people still have freedom of speech. Nobody's advocating slaughter or descrimination, people are just being alarmist. So what, if you want to point fingers and say "he went off his nut because of this", then you might as well watch reefer madness and believe it. I had thought that the idea was not to be sucked in by alarmism. If you want to be above that, then be above it, there's no need to trash talk or call names.

I agree with moondawg to a certain extent. But nobody's yelling "fire!" in a crouded theater. The deranged are deranged, and they will find reasons to do things if you don't give them one.

In the end this all boils down to paranoia. The shooter was paranoid. People here are paranoid of alarmists. The people of america are going to be paranoid of the things they heard in the news, this being guns, drugs and people who excersize freedom of speech in a strange way. Maybe we should all start to divide, and be suspicious of and derogatory to everybody. Or, we can look at the bigger picture.

I think moondawg was making reference to the 50 year old they now believe the shooter was working with. The 50 year old being the one toinfluence the shooter. He would be the one shooting fire, in the crowded movie theater of the deranged young man's mind.

Yes we have freedom of speech in America but people wrongly assume that it means you can go around saying whatever the hell you want, whenever and wherever you want. They have also perverted it enough now that many uneducated people think that the Constitution also protects Freedom of Expression (to make statements in non verbal ways such as flag burning) it does not. IF you think it does try reading the Constitution.

All Freedom of speech ever meant is that if you feel there is something that needs to be addressed you have the right to do so in a reasonable and responsible manner. To help provide tools that make it even more effective the Founding Fathers also gave us the right to peaceably assemble and the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

These yahoos that go around spouting their racially/sexually biased views and conspiracy theories were never intended to be protected by the First Amendment and our Forefathers would be turning in their graves if they could see how we've allowed things to be perverted. They would be like "Damn it, we went to all that trouble to write up those long wordy documents and make them laws and yet they still screw it up."

 

[HempKat]

Can you imagine what a raving, cauldron of insanity the camps would be. We'd have to import tin foil from China just for the hats !

You'd have to aerial spray antipsychotics with crop dusting planes just to keep the peace.

I say just put them all in a big box, write stupid on it and the drop it on Iran. So that the headlines will read, Iran wiped out by a stupid bomb.

 

[SpasticGramps]

It's BS that this is going to be portrayed by MSM as a right wing assassination attempt.

If watch this guy's You Tube videos it's clear that he is mentally ill. He's had trouble his whole life. Kicked out of community college for psychological issues, etc. His class mate described him as a "liberal pot smoker" however he has ties to racist organizations. If you could attribute a political philosophy to him it's probably where the left and right extremes meet, but he seems incapable of rational thought. He's probably schizophrenic. His ramblings were incoherent.

This is more about a sick crazy fucker going on a indiscriminate killing spree than some politically motivated assassination. I have no doubt though this will be played by the media to further the toxic vitriol between the right and the left. Tragic commentary for the situation we find ourselves in in this country.

My thoughts go out to all those affected. Especially, that poor little girl. Tragic.

 

[HempKat]

All political changes have to be done at the polls, which sux because now big business owns them. blow them up and maybe we'll start getting middle class reform.

Don't worry, without the middle class big business won't be big for very long. It was the middle class that made big business what it is today.

 

[vta]

From Norml.......

Arizona shooter Loughner used marijuana… so what?



By "Radical" Russ Belville

As you may know by now, in a tragic act of insane violence, Arizona Rep. Gabby Giffords was targeted for assassination, but survived the point-blank gunshot allegedly fired by Jared Lee Loughner, a 22-year-old man whose rambling internet paranoia calls his sanity into question. Loughner also allegedly fired into the crowd, killing a 9-year-old girl (born on 9/11/2001, incidentally), a federal Circuit Court judge, a Giffords staffer, and three others, and wounding several more. All of us at NORML are shocked and saddened by the event and our condolences go out to all the friends, family, and colleagues of the victims who are suffering so much at this time.

So Loughner was one of the 1-in-3 people his age who use marijuana? I wonder if he ever drank beer, too?


Much is being made of Sarah Palin’s imfamous “Take Back the 20″ website, where 20 representatives were “targeted” with bullseyes, including Giffords, because they voted for the Obama Health Care Bill yet serve in districts won by McCain/Palin in 2008. In announcing the map, Palin had tweeted “Commonsense Conservatives & lovers of America: ‘Don’t Retreat, Instead – RELOAD!’” and in covering the results of the election, she tweeted, “Remember months ago “bullseye” icon used 2 target the 20 Obamacare-lovin’ incumbent seats? We won 18 out of 20 (90% success rate;T’aint bad)”. Also, Gifford’s opponent, Jesse Kelly, held an event advertised as “Get on Target for Victory in November Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly.” (By the way, not a typo in missing the periods after “November” or “office”.) Others in response say Loughner was just a fringe crazy person whose actions cannot be blamed on inflamed political rhetoric using firearms and battle allusions.

But while “insane loner psycho just lost it” or “violent rhetoric leads to violence” works for most people as an explanation for Loughner’s actions, for some there has to be better scapegoat. Whoever had “less than 24 hours” in the “when will they blame this on marijuana” pool just won:

AP on AZ Suspect: ‘Former Classmate Described Loughner As a Pot-Smoking Loner Who Had Rambling Beliefs About the World’

His exact motivation was not clear, but a former classmate described Loughner as a pot-smoking loner who had rambling beliefs about the world.

High school classmate Grant Wiens, 22, said Loughner seemed to be “floating through life” and “doing his own thing.”

“Sometimes religion was brought up or drugs. He smoked pot, I don’t know how regularly. And he wasn’t too keen on religion from what I could tell,” Wiens said

.

And on Huffington Post, we find comments like this in response to the news:

Looks like my neighbors kid. He wears long black rain coats, I’ve seen him strung out on the grass, carries a 357 magnum in hand outside of his house….w*alks with an attitude, rumors have it that he has been in court for drug possesion.*….don’t you love this world. Sad, sad and sad.

“another endorsemen*t for the medical marijuana lobby I am sure.”

If Loughner at age 22 is a pot smoker all that tells us is he is a fairly typical 22-year-old male. Among young adults, 31% will use cannabis at least once this year – almost one in three! 12.4% of people that age will use cannabis at least twice a week. And that’s all young adults, male and female, aged 18-25. If we drill-down to just 22-and-23-year-old males, 56% have tried marijuana, 30% will use marijuana this year, 18% will use this month, and 6% will use marijuana almost every day. (All data from the 2009 National Survey on Drug Use and Health, which doesn’t identify data for only 22-year-olds.)

Now, Loughner does sound like the kind of person who should not be smoking pot. It’s never a good idea for people with mental illness like schizophrenia to use cannabis. However, locking up mentally healthy adults who use cannabis in Arizona didn’t stop Loughner from smoking pot, did it? In fact, it may have made it easier for him to do so, as he could acquire it from anonymous dealers who don’t care if he’s mentally disturbed instead of being forced to enter a secure dispensary with video cameras and licensed clerks who could be trained to spot mental illness and offer treatment resources paid for by marijuana profits (much like the lotto bars here in Oregon train bartenders to spot problem gamblers, require all such bars to offer gambling addiction literature, and all treatment is free for those who need it.) Unfortunately, Rep. Giffords opposes decriminalization of marijuana for fear of the violent Mexican drug organizations. In the last Congress she sponsored a resolution supporting the Merida Initiative to send more money and guns to Mexico to fight the cartels.

The part that really disturbs me is that just last year, Arizona Gov. Brewer signed a law that allows adults 21 and older to carry a concealed weapon without a permit, joining Alaska and Vermont as the only states where any citizen can be legally packing heat in public at a political rally without any sort of registration or training to do so. Had Loughner been approached by a police officer and that pistol was found in his pocket, legally there would have been nothing the police could have done.

But if Loughner had a joint in his pocket, police could have arrested him and he may have faced six-to-eighteen months in jail. If Loughner had been pulled over driving to the rally and a piss test revealed he had smoked a joint last week, he’d be placed into mandatory 24-hour custody and faced six months in jail.

Arizona: If you look Mexican, we need to see your papers. If you’re smoking pot, we need to throw you in jail. But if you want to take a concealed gun to a political rally, we don’t need to see any papers and we won’t throw you in jail.

UPDATE: In reading the comments my article has generated, I may not have written those last three paragraphs in such a clear manner. I’ve got 2nd Amendment fans and right-wingers angrily denouncing my leftie gun-control ways, which is amusing, because gun regulations are one area where I and my leftie brethren part ways. I’m from Idaho. I first shot a .22 rifle at age 8, knocking down cans and bottles with my dad. I took hunter safety at age 12, though I don’t really enjoy hunting. I served Idaho and America in the National Guard and have fired (and enjoyed firing) fully automatic M-16′s and M-60′s

I do question the wisdom of no training or permit requirements for a concealed weapon in public but that wasn’t the point. The point was to highlight the absurdity of a state that trusts its citizens to carry around hidden handguns at the shopping center and political rally being so terrified of its citizens carrying marijuana they have to imprison them for mere possession.

 

[Goodkarma]

Kush.....

Kush.....

he was smoking that damn "Kush". See if we had just put all those damn Kushheads in prison......

 

[med_breeder]

According to the Arizona Republic,
The shooter's parents have blockaded themselves in their home.
Refusing to let the FBI in.

It's about to get Waco in this mother!

 

[SpasticGramps]

The plot thickens

Family members of the suspect in the Gabrielle Giffords shooting on Monday blockaded themselves into their home north of Tucson and were refusing FBI agents' entry.

At about 12:25 p.m., agents began banging on the blockade built with 4-by-4 double-thick plywood, yelling, "This is the FBI. Let us in." The blockade is preventing access to the front porch of the home.

Some agents were sent behind the house, and media representatives could hear the agents talking with someone from inside the house.

 

[SpasticGramps]

His mug shot was just released. Space monkey if I ever say one.

 

[Budsmith]

His mug shot was just released. Space monkey if I ever say one.

motherfucker looks like remy off of higher learning

hideous

 

[trichrider]

ever catch a glimpse of Richard DICK Nixon, now there was a psychopath.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

It's always brilliant to engineer an enemy list.

 

[Greensub]

Maybe they need to take the fluoride out of the drinking water in Arizona and substitute Thorazine. Lot of fear and hate coming from AZ lately.

It's probably all the meth. Shit makes people unbalanced.

I lived in AZ for a year and can say I'm surprised by events. ShitFuck there's so much meth out there... I gotta wonder if he was a tweaker too.

Plus... I'm sorry... but they were pretty much bigoted racists where I lived (at least in my experience) a lot of guys out of prison with SS & swastika tatts too. Man... the rascist shit I'd hear come out of peoples mouths in public bars was amazing. I remember hearing that one of the reason's is that AZ is a haven state in a way... If they stop you and there's a warrant out for you in cali they won't detain you unless it's for something violent.

It was just a weird experience for me living there. Want some meth? Go ask your foreman for a hook up. I ain't kidding, I had to trouble shoot electrical in houses that were roughed out by tweakers... Damn, their brains just don't work right.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I do both of those things as well and have tons of desire to kill people. That k*** can lick my ball-sweat unless I actually pull some shit.

It's called freedom. Tell that dopey twat to google it, then go back to college and learn a thing or two about mental illness, which is the only thing relevant here.

Sure it's about mental illness. It's not relevant to tie this guy with groups of people that don't resort to violence for political gain. But this guy didn't just shoot a random politician, he himself called it an assassination. That's murder for political reasons.

So what politics does this nut advocate? It doesn't mean his idealistic brethren are more or less likely to murder others with different political views. But assassinations in particular over the past 50 years show significant disparity.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Conspiracy? - Religious Right backs Obama, despite the political right's objections

Conspiracy? - Religious Right backs Obama, despite the political right's objections

For the legally savy on this site:

Will he be considered an enemy combatant?

He assassinated a federal judge and attempted to assassinate an elected federal official. Also mass murder of civilians.

How is this guy any different than the time square bomber?

Other than location and weapon of choice.

Regarding the title, no conspiracy. Just coinkydink and political irony.

Medbreeder's point may be the biggest story outside the shooting itself!!! On one hand, you've got folks that want to point the terrorist finger at a certain religion. These same folks aren't for criminal prosecutions with terrorist events. These folks don't want military commissions on US soil. Will the nutbag be taken to Guantanamo?

Nope. He's white. He's Christian. Tell me the Religious Right will stand around and allow domestic Christians to be tried as enemy combatants. They'll fight tooth and nail to thwart the appearance that white American Christians are terrorists too.

Be careful when you point at the bad guy and set up special treatment for crimes. Sooner or later, a member of your special interest will fit the bill. If the solution is too unthinkable for your own, it's too unthinkable for all. We're America. We have stood for tolerance and we've led by example. HSA, preemption and war by presidential decree (on loan) has taken over. I see more nuts like this qualifying for military commission by a portion of the same folks that will defend their right to criminal trials. The other portion.....

Can you say conflict of interest between factions?





On the other hand, Obama has to play this right. Obama doesn't want the world to think that America views terrorists as a single religion or group. At the same time, Obama has his first domestic terrorist. I don't care if he agrees with 98% of the political right. He'll be demonized for political gain, even when the religious right comes to Obama's defense. Because there's no way Obama risks condoning the idea that terrorism is exclusive to one group, especially one religion.

The political right will be forced to review their "military commissions only" for domestic, white Christian terrorists. They won't give up the 21st century bogey-man fear-tactic w/o a fight.

In the same instance, the religious right will fight for criminal trials in the US.

Obama wants himself and future presidents to have the power to determine each case as a crime or act of war.

In this case, Obama and the Religious Right come together.

You heard it on ICMag first.

 

[Space Toker]

His mug shot was just released. Space monkey if I ever say one.

hey no personal low blows to my nuts please!

seriously looks like a fake plastic manakin man to me! I think the mentally ill get an unfair rap in the media, and dare I say psychos? Whatever you want to label them, most mentally ill people just need meds, understanding or both. The vast majority of these people are simply harmless, only getting in the way of their own ability to succeed by refusing to take their meds, but with the side effects who can blame them? If they smoke weed or find the right med they may be fine but the true criminals are not really those that are truly mentally ill but those that would pretend to be so to take advantage of the situation. The mentally ill need our sympathy or understanding the way cancer patients would get, but most of those who commit these heinous acts are only pretending to be in this state to exploit pity. I don't know what category or label this guy gets and don't pretend to, but I do know that there is too much hate, labeling and name-calling going on in today's political climate and this contributes to violence in those on the "edge" of sanity. I don't know what this dudes story is but we must all learn to rationally work together to solve our mutual problems instead of resorting to mindless violence.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

That's what I call a family-size bag right there, lol.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

What would you expect to hapen in a country where mentally ill people are allowed to carry guns?Nothing nice, I would think.
The irony is Giffords was advocating the right of every american to carry a gun.

Yeah, but she's an Arizonan. She might even be a card carrying member of the NRA. But I'll bet my last dime she isn't for armor piercing bullets, gonzo magazines or assault weapons. She'll advocate one's right to hunt and defend themselves. She's not for out-arming the law enforcement.

I know leo is a bad subject here but I'd rather the nutbaggers not have a leg up. They show they kill innocent civilians as well as politicians and law enforcement. The clinical definition of terrorists.