My sick garden..... come take a look!

[FreedomFarmer]

Welcome to my first grow, which is experiencing some varied troubles. First off, this is a legal medical grow and I am doing things totally organically, using soiling amendments supplemented with basically just compost teas, occasional fulvic acid and sucanat for carbs. These plants were vegged for almost 3 months out of necessity, due to the fact that the bloom room wasn't done yet. They were originally veged under a 200w flouro for the first month and then went under a 400w mh for another 2 months. Oh yeah, they are 9 plants blooming now, 3 are SSH, 3 are Sputnik, and 3 are turtle power which is a very sativa looking plant and has had the slowest developing buds. They were all uppotted into 7 gallon pots with ~1/3 filled with subcool's supersoil recipe, then a layer blended with reg soil(used both roots organic and harvest moon), then just the base soil where the 2.5 gallons got transplanted in and filled with base soil. The super soil had sat for ~40 days, and was watered and turned but I can't be sure that it totally cooked as summer was ending and nights getting cooler.......

Ok, so the problems started after transplanting into the supersoil containers. They had a few weeks in veg in their big pots(two of em got 10 gallons, everyone else 7), and then were flipped to 12/12 on 11-15. Probably about a week into 12/12 the sputniks showed the first signs of trouble with crispy brown leaf edges starting at the bottom and working their way up. A few weeks later the SSH started showing similar signs. Now it must be noted that the sputnik is a much more vigorously growing plant(in my garden at least compared to the SSH). The turtle powers all looked good at this point and a little bit later they started showing some different symptoms, mainly yellowed edges of the lower fan leaves, but overall really healthy looking. Also, all of these plants were LST'ed, and some responed better then others. The turtle powers loved it and have some crazy big branched out monsters now. The Sputniks did well with it but didn't go as crazy, and the SSHaze's didn't seem to like it all and seem stunted, definitely gonna be the smallest producers from this crop.

So the 9 ladies have been in the new bloom room for about 3+ weeks now, since they started 12/12 under 2 400w MH since that was all that was available at the time. Now they get a 1000w MH and a 1000w HPS, aircooled with a 6" fan on a dedicated light run. The room is cooled by an 8" vortex pulling through a big charcoal filter and out the ceiling, and air is pulled in from a chilly crawlspace through a 25"x20" home air filter. The ventilation system works really well, dropping temps really fast when need be and the lights stay pretty cool too. Temps have been 75-81f day and 60-65 night, currently dialed in around 78/61. RH is running between 45-60 and I don't have it stabilized since I don't have a dehumi yet and the weather has been shifting between dry and humid here. But the range has been good so I haven't been sweating it.

So finally I got around to getting pics of the garden and getting em up here, cause I really need to figure out what is going on here. My first guess is that I have to low of PH(No ph testing of nothing for me...) due to the acidic additions in the SS recipe. So today I feed all the girls a little calmag supplement with there watering(I use tap water bubbled for at least 24 hours), hoping to see if that helps with a possible nutrient lockout. People have been saying nute burn, but I am not so sure. Anyways, heres the pics so the experts can give there thoughts and ideas....

Ok, technically difficulty on the pics, need to consult my bong and try again shortly.....

 

[FreedomFarmer]

Yeehaw, back with pics now, let's start with a canopy shot:



Here are some shots of the Turtle Powers:











Here are some sputnik shots:







And a few of the SSHaze:







And this sputnik i think got wind burn since it was being blasted by a fan:



These pics are all from 12/30 which is day 45 of flower. Now my buds are looking really juicy, i just need to figure out what is out of balance with my plants. So far I have just given them a AACompostTea a week ago, given them calmag on 12/30 and gave 2 of the turtle powers a top dressing of SS/roots soil/worm castings thinking that they are the biggest and seem the hungriest. My main concern is the sputniks and SSH, i can't tell for sure if they are over or under fed or if it is a PH deal or what. Thanks for taking the time to read this far, i know it has been a windy post but i just wanted to cover it all for clarity....cheers!

 

[WauiGreen]

I hate to be the voice of doom but are you sure you don't have root aphids? Have you seen any flyers in your room? Or any little tiny white / grey coloured insects in your soil that neither fly or jump? They look just like my plants went at about day 20 of flower and I thought I had a calcium def. It turned out to be a phantom def and these littles buggers were infesting my soil and eating through all the roots. They left one hell of a mess, I hope you don't have them and it's just a ph lockout of some sort. I couldn't even see them for a long while.

I'm a relative newbie too so am no expert but if this hasn't long started and it is RA then you have a better chance of dealing with it before it gets too bad. I had no idea what I was looking at and lost a lot of plants because of it. Below is a link to a thread that saved the plants I had left. They seem to prefer some plants to others.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=159960

or for ph problems and def's try this one

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=45517

Post your picks up into these links there are some really good guys there that can help you out and they know their stuff. Hope it isn't but best to have it checked out. Good luck

 

[Herborizer]

Looks like mag lockout ph issues. What kind of water?

 

[lilnick]

Looks like mag lockout ph issues. What kind of water?

i agreee

 

[FreedomFarmer]

@WauiGreen: Thanks for ideas with the root aphids, that is a whole nother angle that I hadn't even considered. I have seen a few fliers in the growroom, had some fungus gnats earlier in veg that i mostly wiped out and it seems like a few are still hanging around but I haven't been worried about em. I will however check for pupae in the soil....

@Herborizer + lilnick: Thanks fellas for leaving your 2 cents, mag deficiency is at the top of my list of possible troubles here, glad to have a bit of confirmation on that. Now I did supplement all the plants with cal and mag a few days ago(1 tsp/gallon of epsom salts + 1 tsp/gallon of calcium syrup). Should I be backing off the calcium supplement and just be hitting it with epsom salts??

My water source is tap water that has been bubbled for at least 24 hours, beyond that I don't know the PH or PPM or anything about it really. I guess this could be the trouble to, possibly too much calcium in the water or some other mineral imbalance??

So if I am having a low PH lockout situation, what is my best course of action to quickly and organically correct that?

Thanks again all.......

 

[RicoT]

Looks like Ca to me. Did you dolomite lime your soil?(I'm not familiar with subcools recipe off the top of my head) That brown leaf won't get better, so observe closely how the CalMag remedy progresses as a solution. I'd try bubbling some molasses into your waterings next round too, in addition to dolomite in your soil. Looks like undeniable Ca deficiency to me though

 

[VerdantGreen]

subcools soil mix is pretty hot, and they look burnt to me, as well as some issues which may be due to your tapwater.

you really need to know the pH of the tapwater and if chloramine is used in it (which bubbling doesnt get rid of). if your tapwater pH is much above 7 then you should use some citric acid to get it down to about 6 for watering.

VG

 

[hiker]

Do you use municipal or well water, I don't know if VerdantGreen meant chlorine, but I know where I live using the tap water in no good. I either use rainwater or buy spring water(try not to ) or you could even melt snow if you want, but if it is municipal, I also agree, have it checked.

 

[FlaDankster]

Did you follow the soil mix EXACTLY?

If so you should have all you need in that soil.And have you been giving anything other than water?

 

[VerdantGreen]

chlorine is ok as it evaporates in a day or so if you let the water sit or bubble it. chloramine will persist though and can kill your soil. i think ascorbic acid can cure chloramine but yeah it might be easier to find another water source. your water company will be able to tell you if they use chloramine.

 

[FreedomFarmer]

Woah, sure feels good to post my the troubles that I can't talk to anyone about online and have all these friendly folks drop in to help out!

In regards to water, I know that the municipal water here does not use chloramine, and that the chlorine amounts that they use depend on rainfall and other factors. You are right VG, I really do need to know the PH of my tap water, haven't been worried about it since I am going all organic and banking on a healthy thriving microherd to balance it all out. However, it is hard to say just how thriving my microherd is....... thanks for the tip on citric acid...

Subcools mix has blood, fish bone, guano(P), azomite, epsom and dolomite lime as the main nutes, so my soil has been limed. However, I do question how good of an opportunity the lime had to buffer PH, as I question how well the mix cooked in 40 days with some chilly weather mixed in...... Also, I just got done reading the dolomite lime thread and now I gotta go and check the bag to make sure that it is the proper pulverized dolomite lime with a 2:1 cal:mg ratio. Ahhh, so many little factors that can mess things up....

@RicoT: are the necrotic brown leaves what are leading you to believe it is Ca deficiency? I'm just asking as I am hearing alot of different possibilities of what could be going on here, ca def, mg def, ph, root aphids, nute burn..... I'm having a hard time really figuring this out. Good suggestion on the molasses though, I forgot about all the trace minerals it packs too.

So if my water is the problem here, would my best bet be to use spring or distilled water for now to finish out this run? It should only be a few more weeks or a month or so to finish out so buying water wouldn't be that big of a deal. Do spring or distilled water need to have calmag added to them? Thanks again for all the help crew, it is morning hot tub and J time.......

 

[FreedomFarmer]

Did you follow the soil mix EXACTLY?

If so you should have all you need in that soil.And have you been giving anything other than water?

I did follow the mix exactly, actually made one batch with roots organic as the base soil and another with harvest moon as the base soil. I am running both side by side in the room and haven't noticed any real differences. I let the soil cook outside for 40 days at the end of summer, so it was warming up some during the day but cooling off considerably at night, so i am not sure how well it actually did break down.

Most of the time I just use water, however they have recieved A
ACT made from EWC, molasses, and kelp a few times. Besides that they recieved molasess in one watering and fulvic acid in another. So I haven't been feeding them any macronutrients, only a few things to help out with the biological life....

 

[VerdantGreen]

hey FF, you are right that you shouldnt need to worry about pH in an organic grow - asl long as your tapwater isnt very alkaline, because dolomite will only neutralize acid. it wont reduce the pH of basic and alkaline tapwater.

that said, the dissolved minerals (usually mostly cal and mag) in your tapwater can be good for your plants as long as you can make the pH more friendly before you water.

my tapwater is almost pH 9 - and my plants seem to love it as long as i let it sit a day or 2 to let the chlorine dissapate and add citric acid to bring it to pH 6 ish . Citric acid also helps keep P available to the plant. you can buy powder cheep off ebay, use food grade and dissolve a tablespoon in a pint of water - then use this as your bottle of pH down - a glug of that in your watering can and you are good to go. pH pens are frowned upon in organics but i find mine very useful to sort my tapwater out.

VG

 

[hazy]

Go buy some pH drops at the fish/pet store or somewhere and check the pH of your water.

You'll probably find that regardless of what your tap water is that when you check your runoff pH will be low. My guess because your very top growth looks fine except for a little tip burn, so it's not high pH.
I imagine you have mag locked out because of low pH and if that's so then would you have stuff like cal locked out too. But I think (unlike every one else here) that Calcium defs show as clawed leaves on top growth, not as spots on lower leaves, because calcium can't be redirected from old growth because it is an immobile nutrient. Sooo, that may or may not be the trouble.

You do have a serious Potassium deficiency causing all that marginal necrosis and marginal scorching and tip burn.

So the question i have is???
What causes K defs?

Potassium deficiencies can happen at any pH, so pH is no real help there.*
*this is not to be taken as meaning that you don't need to keep your pH right.
Because, it could be that your pH could be causing the antagonism that is keeping your K from being absorbed.

Speaking of antagonisms, too much Nitrogen, Mag, Cal, or Sodium, will slow the uptake of K.

Of course there are bound to be multiple problem's symptoms that disguise each other and overlap, so just start with that pH. Still, since you had no problems till you switched to that soil mix, I'd question whether or not it's right.

Big Time Note Here:
I vote that now that AZ has passed their MMJ law, that some dispensary or dispensary agent in AZ takes the time and space to do a REAL study and series of controlled experiments on the deficiencies in Cannabis plants. There's NO reason at all that we shouldn't be able to take leaf samples to labs(maybe the lab tech will need to be a registered dispensary agent) and find out EXACTLY what these deficiencies look like etc etc etc.

 

[Purple Monster]

Well you got the sick part right.. haha.

 

[David762]

The first thing I would look at is your H2O.

The first thing I would look at is your H2O.

@WauiGreen: Thanks for ideas with the root aphids, that is a whole nother angle that I hadn't even considered. I have seen a few fliers in the growroom, had some fungus gnats earlier in veg that i mostly wiped out and it seems like a few are still hanging around but I haven't been worried about em. I will however check for pupae in the soil....

@Herborizer + lilnick: Thanks fellas for leaving your 2 cents, mag deficiency is at the top of my list of possible troubles here, glad to have a bit of confirmation on that. Now I did supplement all the plants with cal and mag a few days ago(1 tsp/gallon of epsom salts + 1 tsp/gallon of calcium syrup). Should I be backing off the calcium supplement and just be hitting it with epsom salts??

My water source is tap water that has been bubbled for at least 24 hours, beyond that I don't know the PH or PPM or anything about it really. I guess this could be the trouble to, possibly too much calcium in the water or some other mineral imbalance??

So if I am having a low PH lockout situation, what is my best course of action to quickly and organically correct that?

Thanks again all.......

A quick test with cheap pH test strips should tell you if your tap H2O is causing problems. Tap water can be very bad -- pH or dissolved minerals, and both can change quickly dependent upon water sources like rainfall. Instead of trying jugs of spring water, which also have potential pH & PPM issues, I would switch to jugs of distilled water for a week or so.

This should flush the soil pH and any nute lock-out issues. If your plants problems begin clearing up, you may want to switch to distilled H2O for the remainder of this grow, and then invest in a RO system.

 

[Stress_test]

A quick test with cheap pH test strips should tell you if your tap H2O is causing problems. Tap water can be very bad -- pH or dissolved minerals, and both can change quickly dependent upon water sources like rainfall. Instead of trying jugs of spring water, which also have potential pH & PPM issues, I would switch to jugs of distilled water for a week or so.

This should flush the soil pH and any nute lock-out issues. If your plants problems begin clearing up, you may want to switch to distilled H2O for the remainder of this grow, and then invest in a RO system.

I agree but first make sure and check your soil for unwanted guests.

I read this entire thread and the very first reply may have addressed the problem.

I hate to be the voice of doom but are you sure you don't have root aphids? Have you seen any flyers in your room? Or any little tiny white / grey coloured insects in your soil that neither fly or jump? They look just like my plants went at about day 20 of flower and I thought I had a calcium def. It turned out to be a phantom def and these littles buggers were infesting my soil and eating through all the roots. They left one hell of a mess, I hope you don't have them and it's just a ph lockout of some sort. I couldn't even see them for a long while.

I'm a relative newbie too so am no expert but if this hasn't long started and it is RA then you have a better chance of dealing with it before it gets too bad. I had no idea what I was looking at and lost a lot of plants because of it. Below is a link to a thread that saved the plants I had left. They seem to prefer some plants to others.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=159960

or for ph problems and def's try this one

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=45517

Post your picks up into these links there are some really good guys there that can help you out and they know their stuff. Hope it isn't but best to have it checked out. Good luck

 

[FreedomFarmer]

@VG: your reply really helped me to get clear on water PH in organics, now i am feeeling confident on sorting out the water situation at least.....

@hazy: big thanks for the detailed post. my first step is definitely going to be checking out the water PH situation, both tap and runoff. in regards to the calcium clawing effect, i did observe that on top growth before things started really getting necrotic. only a little bit of clawing though.....

Potassium, eh? reading what you posted as the lockout factors for potassium i imagine that could be a very real possibility. I know that there is quite a bit of K in the soil mix, so i doubt that it is a deficiency, must be locked out. As far as the soil mix goes, it seemed like it was a tried and true recipe that was getting good reviews so i just followed exactly and trusted it since i am a newb to this. the mix probably didn't cook enough and stayed to acidic is my guess, since everything i am seeing a possible "deficiency" with is in full supply in this soil. You are right about all the overlapping symptoms, it seems like there can be so many possibilities, you really gotta get mad scientist on these nutrient situations to figure em out! Sure would be sweet to just take a leaf down to the ganja doc and have it analyzed, eh?!

@David762: thanks for the tip on the distilled water, that is an easy route to go. Don't I have to tweak that water(ad cal/mag or adjust pH?) before i use it though?

@StressTest: i am really crossing my fingers that you and wauigreen are wrong on this one, but i will be definitely checking my soil very well..... I checked out the root aphid thread that wauigreen linked me to so i am ready to do some sherlocking.....


Ok, gonna get a chance to go and visit my girls here in a couple hours, and run with all this useful info i've gotten. I plan on checking out:

Tap water PH
Run off PH
Root aphid tracks!
Dolomite Lime label(make sure it is the proper one, not sure now after reading the dol lime thread)
and seeing if the calmag treatment had any effect from 2 days ago

Annoying having your internet connect one place and your grow another, but i'll bring back some pics of anything new or interesting....

One last question, I am assuming that it is better for me to figure out all of the above issues before trying to correct any nute deficiencies, right?

Thanks again to all, wish I would have found icmag before I started this grow!

 

[Stress_test]

I certainly would.

But since you are using the same water now as before the problem started then I would set that issue on a back burner for now and focus on the elements that have been changed or modified.

IF you discover root aphids then deal with that now... BUT I still advise you to follow up on the other points. If for your own knowledge and peace of mind.