Never defoliate before the stretch is over in flower. Even if you defoliate in Veg, do NOT defoliate until after week 2 flower. I wait until day 20ish Flower, and nothing will be stunted.
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Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?
- Thread starter k33ftr33z
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Never defoliate before the stretch is over in flower. Even if you defoliate in Veg, do NOT defoliate until after week 2 flower. I wait until day 20ish Flower, and nothing will be stunted.
B
Bob Smith
Holy cracker barrel.
I just read this thread for over an hour and I haven't even made a dent in it (I'm actually a pretty fast reader, too).
I've always plucked leaves that block budsites, but simply because that's how I was taught by the guy who turned me on (no homo) to growing - I've not pruned plants in grows (usually attributable to my laziness), and they produce MUCH more larf for me which goes in the hash pile.
Since I'm getting ready for my first foray into vertical gardening (long time flat SOG'er), I'm actually going to test this out for myself and see what the results are.
Growing "system" is my avatar - 15 columns, 90 sites (light readings are available in another thread, but can repost here if anyone's that interested) - 7 columns will be left unpruned (although I'm still gonna lollipop, I refuse to let any plants go "au natural"), and 8 will be defoliated (not in the stripped bare ass nekked sense that some of the pics I've seen in this thread are, but how I used to for my flat gardens - large fans blocking budsites will be plucked).
4 600s running in a cooltube down the middle, 82F, 1500PPMs CO2, lp aero/nft hybrid, 67F rez temps, etc., etc.
Have a digital scale to compare yields between the two.
Waiting on clones to root and they should go in the system within a couple of weeks - that being said, I don't pluck shit in veg, so it's not gonna be worthwhile to post about until I do pluck - generally about week 2-3 (when stretch has stopped) and then again at about week 5-6.
I'll post my unbiased results in this thread - sole determinant of success with be weight/plant.
If you haven't heard from me by Christmas, PM me and remind me to post in this thread.
I just got out of a thread where I was being flamed by people who didn't know any better, so if anyone wants to flame me, please don't - thanks in advance.
EDIT: I shouldn't say "sole determinant", because there are other factors that I'm going to consider as well. I hate trimming, so ease of trimming per plant will also be taken into consideration - an extra gram or two a plant isn't worth it to me if it takes me an extra ten minutes to trim; that being said, g/plant will be the largest driver of success, IMO.
I just read this thread for over an hour and I haven't even made a dent in it (I'm actually a pretty fast reader, too).
I've always plucked leaves that block budsites, but simply because that's how I was taught by the guy who turned me on (no homo) to growing - I've not pruned plants in grows (usually attributable to my laziness), and they produce MUCH more larf for me which goes in the hash pile.
Since I'm getting ready for my first foray into vertical gardening (long time flat SOG'er), I'm actually going to test this out for myself and see what the results are.
Growing "system" is my avatar - 15 columns, 90 sites (light readings are available in another thread, but can repost here if anyone's that interested) - 7 columns will be left unpruned (although I'm still gonna lollipop, I refuse to let any plants go "au natural"), and 8 will be defoliated (not in the stripped bare ass nekked sense that some of the pics I've seen in this thread are, but how I used to for my flat gardens - large fans blocking budsites will be plucked).
4 600s running in a cooltube down the middle, 82F, 1500PPMs CO2, lp aero/nft hybrid, 67F rez temps, etc., etc.
Have a digital scale to compare yields between the two.
Waiting on clones to root and they should go in the system within a couple of weeks - that being said, I don't pluck shit in veg, so it's not gonna be worthwhile to post about until I do pluck - generally about week 2-3 (when stretch has stopped) and then again at about week 5-6.
I'll post my unbiased results in this thread - sole determinant of success with be weight/plant.
If you haven't heard from me by Christmas, PM me and remind me to post in this thread.
I just got out of a thread where I was being flamed by people who didn't know any better, so if anyone wants to flame me, please don't - thanks in advance.
EDIT: I shouldn't say "sole determinant", because there are other factors that I'm going to consider as well. I hate trimming, so ease of trimming per plant will also be taken into consideration - an extra gram or two a plant isn't worth it to me if it takes me an extra ten minutes to trim; that being said, g/plant will be the largest driver of success, IMO.
This sounds to me like your trying to push too many Colas outta them.(more colas=less big buds/ dom colas) per wpsf per yield/year!Per Enviroment
A plant cannonly give you soo much yield psi/psf/psm/! etc, its up to you to maximise the space, some people struggle to accept this point. Strains do have a diminishing return(max output p/s). Some strains will yield big others small! &* quality varies!
I doubt it would be considered popcorn if people seen it!
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D
disciple
B
Bob Smith
Disciple, what I do isn't really what the OP (or you) do - I'm in the "no stripping until after stretch is over" camp - I don't have the time (or need) to slow down my vegging plants.
I paid a lot more money to build my system to only hold 90 sites (would've been about 120 if I used 3" PVC) so that even with mothers I'd be <100 plants for 95% of the time (except for the 7-10 days when I have 120 clones in my EZ Cloner) - my personal utility is maximized more by me being under 100 plants for as much of my growing cycle as possible than it is by getting a slightly larger yield per plant (I'm never hurting for weed and value my freedom).
That being said, I still think there's something to be learned from a side by side with a strip at ~20 days and a strip at ~40 days (both flowering, obviously).
Thought it over last night and it's going to be seven columns vs. seven columns - the 15th column will be in-between the two sets and act purely as a buffer (although I'd hope to get some good smoke off of it, anyways).
Disciple, making some modifications to my structure while I have this downtime - pretty sick shit, check out my thread in a day or two for an update
I paid a lot more money to build my system to only hold 90 sites (would've been about 120 if I used 3" PVC) so that even with mothers I'd be <100 plants for 95% of the time (except for the 7-10 days when I have 120 clones in my EZ Cloner) - my personal utility is maximized more by me being under 100 plants for as much of my growing cycle as possible than it is by getting a slightly larger yield per plant (I'm never hurting for weed and value my freedom).
That being said, I still think there's something to be learned from a side by side with a strip at ~20 days and a strip at ~40 days (both flowering, obviously).
Thought it over last night and it's going to be seven columns vs. seven columns - the 15th column will be in-between the two sets and act purely as a buffer (although I'd hope to get some good smoke off of it, anyways).
Disciple, making some modifications to my structure while I have this downtime - pretty sick shit, check out my thread in a day or two for an update
overmyhead
Member
Yes! I didnt realize it but my temps were in the high 90's for a few weeks and got very strange (but delicious) flowers.
Attachments
I tested dfing in veg, some liked it and others didn't
from here on out
I am only going to be topping and or lollipopping during veg and will only defoliate after their flower stretch is done. Makes too much sense that way versus lagging them when they are first trying to grow up unless you want them to stay flowering at the size that you df them during the first week or so of flower.
Defoliating left me with a pm issue, now it wasn't the defoliating that gave me pm (that is my environmental issues) BUT the ones I didn't defoliate didn't end up with pm on them at all. I am fixing my environment humidity wise and temp wise BUT I feel the after stretch defoliation is the ticket here.
from here on out
I am only going to be topping and or lollipopping during veg and will only defoliate after their flower stretch is done. Makes too much sense that way versus lagging them when they are first trying to grow up unless you want them to stay flowering at the size that you df them during the first week or so of flower.
Defoliating left me with a pm issue, now it wasn't the defoliating that gave me pm (that is my environmental issues) BUT the ones I didn't defoliate didn't end up with pm on them at all. I am fixing my environment humidity wise and temp wise BUT I feel the after stretch defoliation is the ticket here.
Ok so a mate of mine read this post when it was started, he has only ever had one strain, and he has only ever df'd. About 4 months ago I said to him "why dont you not df and see how it turns out", he liked the idea and like me wanted to see the difference. So here they are in word form....too scared to post pics.
The plant was taller
The buds were bigger and harder
The yield is atleast double for sure
The plant drank twice maybe 3x more nutes a day
I understand that other strains may appreciate df'in but I dont think this one did, he yielded 60g dry from df'in and 132 dry when not df'in per plant.
strain was white skunk
The plant was taller
The buds were bigger and harder
The yield is atleast double for sure
The plant drank twice maybe 3x more nutes a day
I understand that other strains may appreciate df'in but I dont think this one did, he yielded 60g dry from df'in and 132 dry when not df'in per plant.
strain was white skunk
I don't know about the first defoliation 2-3 weeks into flower being as productive as defoliating from veg. Here's what I noticed..
1st defoliation in veg after 8th internode: plant growth stops for a few days.
then you see new growth at the internodes for a day or two then leaves begin coming out all over the plant.
The way it happens for me is, after I defoliate, I check on the plants every day and after the 3rd day I see no change so I stop checking. I check 5-7 days from then and the plants have exploded in growth, gotten bushier, etc. NOT taller though.
From here on in, I defoliate fully and supercrop only plants that are lanky. The rest of the plants I remove big fan leaves that are shading every 1-2 days. Maybe 2-4 leaves a plant.. not much since most of the new growth will be small leaves that don't shade.
I let them get bushy their last week before 12/12. darkness for 24 hours and then induce flowering with blue lighting to keep stretch as low as possible.
then I continue to remove leaves that are shading every 1-2 days. I avoid a full defoliation because some plants become stunted and take longer to mature. That has been my experience but it only happened to plants that were furthest from the light, so the lack of light is probably more significant in causing the delay than defoliating, but the stress certainly can't help a plant that isn't dialed in (light, air, steady pH)
Defoliation to me is not necessarily a way to increase yield biochemically, but more as a way to keep the plant short and growing laterally to help me make the best use of my space.
Saying defoliation doesn't increase yield is kind of like saying scrog/LST doesn't increase yields. The answer is: It depends.
Having big bushes cramped up against each other is one way to lower yield, in my experience.
Marquis de Sod
Member
thanks for the info Overmyhead. I am pretty sure of this as everything is looking way better than before/during summer. i dont have AC. were the buds on the left actual buds from hotter temps?? That is what the BEST and BIGGEST of my 95F plants got to be: crap (compared to the others on the right)
Ps to above, ALL my plants were DF'd in veg at least once.
I have another Question: In my younger plants, i seem to have those big fans that have VERY long stems and so the leaf sticks out so far it really doesnt cover anything. I have ALSO noticed that these particular fans leaves all have big-ass Calyxes at the main stem next to them. Should I cut these off now, wait till the Calyx opens, or leave them on??? STill confused as usual. (for some reason most all my other plants have regular sized fans that are in the body of the plant:they dont stick out so far. Allmost NONE of these have those Calyxes at the node.)\
edit (the calyxes did not grow when i left the fans on either. i just harvested 12/25 so DFing or not didnt matter)
Ps to above, ALL my plants were DF'd in veg at least once.
I have another Question: In my younger plants, i seem to have those big fans that have VERY long stems and so the leaf sticks out so far it really doesnt cover anything. I have ALSO noticed that these particular fans leaves all have big-ass Calyxes at the main stem next to them. Should I cut these off now, wait till the Calyx opens, or leave them on??? STill confused as usual. (for some reason most all my other plants have regular sized fans that are in the body of the plant:they dont stick out so far. Allmost NONE of these have those Calyxes at the node.)\
edit (the calyxes did not grow when i left the fans on either. i just harvested 12/25 so DFing or not didnt matter)
The big-ass calyxes are getting alot of their energy to grow so big assed from that big solar-collector with a very long stem.
Hi !!!,
Here is his schedual, he clones mostly
Clone: rooting for 2 weeks
Veg: for 5 weeks
(major df halfway through the 3rd week, only leave tips remaining...dont stress plant will fully recover and have exploded by 4.5wks)
Flowering: df after 3 weeks, you will want to snip 50% of leaves and if your not sure about weather to snip a leaf or not, just snip half of the leaves fingers. After this df he only snipped leaf fingers as needed (to expose a flower/bud site to light).
Snipping the fingers is awsome his leaves still do their job, stay really healthy, and more light gets through.
But yeah he found that not df was better for that particuar strain.
Here is his schedual, he clones mostly
Clone: rooting for 2 weeks
Veg: for 5 weeks
(major df halfway through the 3rd week, only leave tips remaining...dont stress plant will fully recover and have exploded by 4.5wks)
Flowering: df after 3 weeks, you will want to snip 50% of leaves and if your not sure about weather to snip a leaf or not, just snip half of the leaves fingers. After this df he only snipped leaf fingers as needed (to expose a flower/bud site to light).
Snipping the fingers is awsome his leaves still do their job, stay really healthy, and more light gets through.
But yeah he found that not df was better for that particuar strain.
Marquis de Sod
Member
i have looked at plants that i pulled the big fan off previously and the big calyx next to where the stem was, is dead. so no bud site there now. i will be watching and checking out the other plants i df'd already and get back to yas. keef?
ninjasmoke
New member
is this usually only done with indicas and short plants? what if my sativa plants stretch like crazy.
I pluck hard during veg and up the first flowers appear. After that I haven't plucked any leaves. The plants are full lots of buds they're getting fatter by the day. They have been in flower for 41 days. Still a little ways to go.There's four plants , in a 2 feet tall,in a 2X3 grow area with an 8 light T5HO CFL.
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Once I get my new cab up and running, I am considering keeping my current cab as a test chamber.
My current cab has two equally sized, equally lit chambers that share the same intake and exhaust.
I could do any number of side by side experiments by putting single or multiple plants in both chambers and then using one for experiment and one for control. For instance, putting ten 4" clones in each side and defoliating one side and leaving the other to grow naturally.
If and when this happens, I will create a thread for it and post the links and results here.
I'm planning to start actual construction of my new cab sometime before spring.
My current cab has two equally sized, equally lit chambers that share the same intake and exhaust.
I could do any number of side by side experiments by putting single or multiple plants in both chambers and then using one for experiment and one for control. For instance, putting ten 4" clones in each side and defoliating one side and leaving the other to grow naturally.
If and when this happens, I will create a thread for it and post the links and results here.
I'm planning to start actual construction of my new cab sometime before spring.
Take the time to really read the thread so that you understand when why and how you do this... otherwise you might be severely disappointed.
Keep in mind your required plant size and remember to veg longer if you do this in veg... it will slow it down. You want to take the extra time and grow your plant to the same size before flowering (might need larger container)
Don't DF during stretch unless you want to keep the plant small because you grew it too big in the first place, and need to stunt it on purpose (even then do it cautiously a limb at a time).
Let it re-leaf fully between DF sessions...
How aggressive you want to be during flower is going to vary depending on your training technique, if your really good at spreading a plant out you'll probably want to remove less than if you're trying to grow a bushier canopy with some depth to it.
Same with the variances caused by strain...
I imagine a really bushy Indica doesn't need it as much during veg... but might benefit more during flowering if it has really really dense thick foliage hiding lower growth
Conversely I could see more of a use for DF'ing in veg for sativa's
to control inter-node length. Unless you really bushed it up really good in veg, it's probably not going to benefit from a real aggressive defoliation process during flowering.
Do not remove any bud leaves!
Ummm... some followed Jrosek's plan (day 20-21 of flower and again at 40 or so), The OP didn't have a set schedule. Logic would suggest that you not remove the leaf until it's reached maturity unless you want localized stunting, ask yourself when your contemplating pulling a leaf, what that leaf is attached to... and decide if you want that localized part to continue receiving energy to grow before you pull it.
There's more but that's all I can think of off the top of my head... That's what I personally got from reading the thread and reading all the experiences good and bad. I'm still playing with it myself, but so far it's helped even out my canopy which was really useful due to some adverse circumstances of my own making.
Try to take everything you read in this thread into consideration... for and against. Everyone's experience was valuable... pay close attention to all the different variables between everyone's experience. Nobody did it exactly the same or had the same amount of success.
This is all my humble opinion after reading this thread... and comparing and analyzing it in reference to everything thing else I've read in the last 15 years. I haven't done a hundred different experiments to bolster any claim of experience... so take it with a grain of salt and read the thread.
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T
THE PABLOS
....it is a nice tactic....in a perpetual garden the slowness in veg doesn't bother me much. Being height restricted and growing many stretchy strains....heavy pruning through veg and flower...reduces the amount of training I must do....nice benefit...as removing leaves is much easier.
I don't know...if when counting the extra time it takes.....that yields improve. As I run from seed only....the longer veg time is a benefit for flowering more mature plants.....overall though....my yields have improved....but extra veg time....and the fact that I run from seed only doesn't offer an accurate study.
I like heavy pruning....I like that it really opens things up with skeleton structured landscape in veg.....and in bloom the flowers fill in nice and tight. I'm a believer in catering to the indoor environment....lights never match sun power...I adjust my plants differently.....I'd not bother pruning like this OD in the sun juice.
It takes timing and labor to use these techniques....I can see many growers fucking it up....as this thread has warned over and over.
I don't know...if when counting the extra time it takes.....that yields improve. As I run from seed only....the longer veg time is a benefit for flowering more mature plants.....overall though....my yields have improved....but extra veg time....and the fact that I run from seed only doesn't offer an accurate study.
I like heavy pruning....I like that it really opens things up with skeleton structured landscape in veg.....and in bloom the flowers fill in nice and tight. I'm a believer in catering to the indoor environment....lights never match sun power...I adjust my plants differently.....I'd not bother pruning like this OD in the sun juice.
It takes timing and labor to use these techniques....I can see many growers fucking it up....as this thread has warned over and over.
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