LSD ... any ideas?

[ericcalif]

Hi all,
I'm baffled... I have 2 plants currently just a few weeks into flower. One is Critical Jack, doing nicely. The other is Barneys Farm LSD. Just about identical treatment but the LSD is looking sicker by the day.



This is one of the lower leafs. This is happening on the bottom only so far, a few of these fan leaves have died. Not like normal fan leaves dying off during flower, im not far enough along for that.

Soil, its a generic potting soil from a home center, fungi added organic mix with a bit of perlite mixed in. Water is almost always ph'ed to mid 6's... I don't have an easy way to check run off ph. (Though keep in mind its getting all the same stuff as the Critical and she's doing just fine) No, the little dots aren't mites, first thing I looked for. Not one mite to be found.
She's been fed Jacks Classic all along, not heavily. About 1/2 to 2/3 recommended. (the 20-20-20 during veg, twice since flowering she's had the flowering formula 10-30-20 but yesterday I gave her the 20-20-20 thinking she might need some extra N )
The overall look of the plant is very light green. That led me to think she might need some N, but there's been no change since.
Vegged under flouros, under 400 watt hps for 2 weeks now.
Suggestions? If there's any specific questions to help, let me know. Meanwhile when she's ready to be watered again I'm going to flood her a bit and try to get a reading on runoff.
Thanks in advance!

 

[Sam the Caveman]

It doesn't look like your feeding them any cal/mg

The picture looks like a mg deficiency, but the non-linear pattern is unusual.

 

[BlueberryLovr]

From just the leaf pic, seems like your plant is pretty hungry.

 

[HempKat]

Could you give us more info? Temps, humidity, etc. I'm inclined to go along with Sam and say it's a cal/mag issue but it also looks like what I get when a lower leaf gets too shaded by upper leaves and so it dies off. It shouldn't be a deficiency issue as Peters is good about having the micronutrients in their formulas, then again you did say something about feeding them a bit lite.

 

[daheadies]

I dont think its just hungry, but is a deficiency cause of the spotting...
most simple possible fix is adding a pinch of some epsom salts to a gallon of water and putting that through your plant.. Otherwise, should prob go w/ a cal and mag..

 

[ericcalif]

Could you give us more info? Temps, humidity, etc. I'm inclined to go along with Sam and say it's a cal/mag issue but it also looks like what I get when a lower leaf gets too shaded by upper leaves and so it dies off. It shouldn't be a deficiency issue as Peters is good about having the micronutrients in their formulas, then again you did say something about feeding them a bit lite.

Hey Sam, HK and everyone, thanks for your replies.

HK, temps are in the hi 70's lights on, lower with lights off though where they are I dont have much control over temps so I try to work with the heat of the lights to keep things balanced. Humidity is what ever the weather is, lately bouncing between 20 and 50.
Yes that's what I thought about Peters too, and again the girl next to this one getting the same temps, nutes and environment hasn't displayed any of these symptoms.
I'm going to try a pinch of epsom salts Sam, and see if there's a difference. It would be really nice if it was something that easy.
Thanks again guys !

 

[greentrich]

The picture looks like a mg deficiency, but the non-linear pattern is unusual.

That's how mine started as well. I ended up having root aphids. They (RA's) do a nice job at camouflage-ing their attack as a def: either MG, CA, or K defs.

Your pic with the spotting, non linear yellowing...exactly how mine started.
Check your roots with a loop and check them well. I'm not saying this is what it is, but you can't rule it out either. RA's are a harder problem to correct than any def known to man, so it's worth checking.
I DO hope I'm wrong.

 

[HempKat]

Hey Sam, HK and everyone, thanks for your replies.

HK, temps are in the hi 70's lights on, lower with lights off though where they are I dont have much control over temps so I try to work with the heat of the lights to keep things balanced. Humidity is what ever the weather is, lately bouncing between 20 and 50.
Yes that's what I thought about Peters too, and again the girl next to this one getting the same temps, nutes and environment hasn't displayed any of these symptoms.
I'm going to try a pinch of epsom salts Sam, and see if there's a difference. It would be really nice if it was something that easy.
Thanks again guys !

Okay the temps and humidity sound okay. You can try the epsom salts that's really just adding magnesium. Again though if everyone is getting the same thing why would just some plants get a deficiency? The answer could be that not all plants have the same needs. Maybe the mg level is enough for the one strain but not the other? Then again maybe it's this root aphid thing? I've never had those to my knowledge so I don't know what to tell you on that score.

 

[ericcalif]

Okay the temps and humidity sound okay. You can try the epsom salts that's really just adding magnesium. Again though if everyone is getting the same thing why would just some plants get a deficiency? The answer could be that not all plants have the same needs. Maybe the mg level is enough for the one strain but not the other? Then again maybe it's this root aphid thing? I've never had those to my knowledge so I don't know what to tell you on that score.

So what I did was broke down and went to the hydro shop and got some CalMag. Gave her 1 1/2 teaspoon per gallon and watered her good. The PH going in was 6.8 run off was 6.4 So I'm guessing my soil might be a bit low.
HK, I'm with you, I think this different strain is what is different, this one and the lemon haze before that. The other strains I've grown dont behave this way.
Im not sure exactly how to diagnose root aphids positively, but I'm certain that was my problem before and like i've said, having learned that lesson I now give em a little bit of Imid late in veg just to keep that from happening again. I havent had the flying adults at all like I did since doing that and ditching the FF soil. I'll see if the CalMag and trying to up the soil ph a tad helps. Thanks again!

 

[ericcalif]

That's how mine started as well. I ended up having root aphids. They (RA's) do a nice job at camouflage-ing their attack as a def: either MG, CA, or K defs.

Your pic with the spotting, non linear yellowing...exactly how mine started.
Check your roots with a loop and check them well. I'm not saying this is what it is, but you can't rule it out either. RA's are a harder problem to correct than any def known to man, so it's worth checking.
I DO hope I'm wrong.

Green, I agree it does look similar. I was struggling trying to figure that one out some time back and was thinking it was a defeciency. It did turn out to be root aphids that I think came from FF Happy Frog soil. I finally knocked them out with Imid and since then I give a preventitive dose before flipping to flowering. Near as I can tell they havent been back. Thanks for your input though. If you ever struggle with RA's yourself, find some Imid. Did the trick for me.

 

[greentrich]

right on eric. I'm dealing with them now. Hopefully the end of them. I was too far along to use Imid, so I went with Spectracide for the contact kill for the remaining weeks of flower. We'll see how it goes.
Glad to see you took preventative measures though and am very glad to hear that it's probably NOT ra's.

 

[darrmann]

be very careful of the diagnosis of calmag. I have some barneys and grand daddy purple and they are definitly low nute lovers. I usually add calmag from the start with my previous strains and when I went to the same dosage with calmag ithey quit growing and looked as if i had calcium deficiency. It was calcium overload which looks like the same thing. I flushed for 4 days then gave 1/2 strength nutes and they immediatly started looking better. People that dont know the strain your dealing with could lead you wrong. I cut all my usual additives and went with 1/2 strength nutes along with liquid karma and superthrive and the look way better. Also seems like barneys likes a little extra nitrogen, could try some fish emulsion.

 

[Tr33]

greentrich hit the nail on the head
That's the classic phantom Ca/Mg def caused by Root Aphids.
bet it started around day 20-30, older leaves.

LSD is so touchy, the RA most likely slimmed the roots with their poison.
it's real hard to clean up once hit, you just have to suffer the grow along
and be happy with the 1/3 product loss

 

[HempKat]

So what I did was broke down and went to the hydro shop and got some CalMag. Gave her 1 1/2 teaspoon per gallon and watered her good. The PH going in was 6.8 run off was 6.4 So I'm guessing my soil might be a bit low.
HK, I'm with you, I think this different strain is what is different, this one and the lemon haze before that. The other strains I've grown dont behave this way.
Im not sure exactly how to diagnose root aphids positively, but I'm certain that was my problem before and like i've said, having learned that lesson I now give em a little bit of Imid late in veg just to keep that from happening again. I havent had the flying adults at all like I did since doing that and ditching the FF soil. I'll see if the CalMag and trying to up the soil ph a tad helps. Thanks again!

I was rethinking about what you said here and I thought I should point out something that occured to me. OFten times when we get these mysterious problems that make no sense, somewhere in the mix is something we thought of and then ruled out. Like in this case, root aphids were mentioned and you've ruled them out because you pre-treated with Imid during veg. Now what strikes me here is that you say the way this plant is behaving is just like the lemon haze and the lemon haze you're saying you're sure it was root aphids. What if somehow it's possible for root aphids to survive your pre-treatment? I am not familiar with Imid but if you're sure the lemon haze had root aphids and you feel this one is behaving the same way. Then I wouldn't rule them out.

You have gotten confirmation that the LSD is a picky eater but the problem doesn't sound like that because you've said nothing that sounds like nutrient burn or anything like that. If you've been feeding normally and if LSD is a light eater then you should have seen signs it getting too much nutrients, so I wouldn't rule out the aphids yet.

 

[Highlight]

Deleted

 

[ericcalif]

right on eric. I'm dealing with them now. Hopefully the end of them. I was too far along to use Imid, so I went with Spectracide for the contact kill for the remaining weeks of flower. We'll see how it goes.
Glad to see you took preventative measures though and am very glad to hear that it's probably NOT ra's.

Thanks Green and damn dude, good luck. I don't know what's worse, the RA's or mites.

 

[ericcalif]

be very careful of the diagnosis of calmag. I have some barneys and grand daddy purple and they are definitly low nute lovers. I usually add calmag from the start with my previous strains and when I went to the same dosage with calmag ithey quit growing and looked as if i had calcium deficiency. It was calcium overload which looks like the same thing. I flushed for 4 days then gave 1/2 strength nutes and they immediatly started looking better. People that dont know the strain your dealing with could lead you wrong. I cut all my usual additives and went with 1/2 strength nutes along with liquid karma and superthrive and the look way better. Also seems like barneys likes a little extra nitrogen, could try some fish emulsion.

Hey Darr, thanks for the input. When you say Barneys, do you mean their LSD ? They have several strains.
Funny you mention the grand daddy purple, I have a strain I've run several times that is supposed to be GDP and diesel mix, and didn't seem to be very nute sensitive. Not that a GPD mix is the same, just saying.
I usually take the approach that less is more and tend to be conservative with nutes and additives. Waiting a day or so to see if there's any improvement with the CalMag.

 

[ericcalif]

I was rethinking about what you said here and I thought I should point out something that occured to me. OFten times when we get these mysterious problems that make no sense, somewhere in the mix is something we thought of and then ruled out. Like in this case, root aphids were mentioned and you've ruled them out because you pre-treated with Imid during veg. Now what strikes me here is that you say the way this plant is behaving is just like the lemon haze and the lemon haze you're saying you're sure it was root aphids. What if somehow it's possible for root aphids to survive your pre-treatment? I am not familiar with Imid but if you're sure the lemon haze had root aphids and you feel this one is behaving the same way. Then I wouldn't rule them out.

You have gotten confirmation that the LSD is a picky eater but the problem doesn't sound like that because you've said nothing that sounds like nutrient burn or anything like that. If you've been feeding normally and if LSD is a light eater then you should have seen signs it getting too much nutrients, so I wouldn't rule out the aphids yet.

Hey HK, you're a pretty smart dude... very valid point about being too quick to rule something out. Only thing is, maybe I wasn't clear enough or you missed it... the root aphid problem I had wasn't with the Lemon Haze. It was a few runs before that. I was saying I had similar looking growth during flowering with the Lemon Haze.
Awhile back on your old farts thread we went around a few times about having a problem with dying off lower leaves and branches. You had suggested improving airflow and light on the lower parts of the plants, that mine looked kind of cramped. I believe my problem then was with RA's, the biggest clue was the endless amounts of adult winged RA's, what alot of people call fungus gnats. I have been using those little yellow sticky traps for awhile now, its a good way to monitor pests in my cabs.
The main reason I'm ruling out RA's on this, I see almost no pests, before I would literally see them walking all over the top of the soil especially after watering. In this crop, no evidence of that whatsoever.
After developing and fighting pest problems twice, Im maybe a little hyper alert to not let them happen again. Mites and RA's are a pain to get rid of so I've taken a mild preventative approach. One mild dose of Imid before going to flower, one or two applications of Doktor Doom during veg to keep them mites from taking hold.

But, I know better than to say never. I appreciate everyones input and will keep ya posted.

 

[greentrich]

The main reason I'm ruling out RA's on this, I see almost no pests

Neither did I. Not to harp on the subject, but I saw not one pest. I took digging down into the coco and busting out my trusty Radio Shack scope to see little red maggatrons on my roots. Again, not saying this is it...but please don't rule it out until you've physically seen what is or isn't on your roots. My mind works scientifically, and until I've disproven something by physically seeing or not seeing something...it is ALWAYS a possibility.

Only takes a couple minutes. Checking for RA's is never a waste of time IMO.

 

[Sam the Caveman]

I've had root aphids before, and the way the plants act after you kill the RAs, it seems like they are very sluggish to recover, like maybe the roots are covered in that wax that covers the aphids.

Its almost as if the root systems have to start all over after a RA infestation.

Thats just my observation on my plants though, results may vary depending on what type of RA you have.

If you are growing in soil, add to your soil mix neem meal and diatomaceous earth.

edit; I had no flyers and the aphids were tiny white specks, the main thing I notices was that waxy build-up.