Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[Tr33]

I saw the answer to my question in this thread somewhere, and I can't find it now.

Can Tree and Shrub be used in a res with nutes for the root soak?

 

[ShroomDr]

yeah, i used T&S in my recirculating reservoir @ 10mL/Gal, and didnt adjust my overall feed strength. No problems. (I think that application may have raised my ec ≈ 0.15. I didnt write it down, i found the Δ change basically insignificant to my grow, and i MAY have been high).

 

[emerica]

first off big thank you to spleebale
for making this thread
when i first notice i had root aphids i google em
and lend me to this amazing thread
however im on my 4th week of flowering
but im flowering till my 10th week
so im pretty sure i have enough time to use imd
which i read works the best
im going with the bayer complete insect killer
since it doesn't have nutrients
i was wondering how much ml's would i use per gallon
if im in soil

 

[emerica]

got the bayer complete insect killer
today for only 14 bucks
compare to spending 10times that
i did a 30ml per gal. in soil
i notice spleebale did 45mls per gal. which is x3 on the label
i decided to go with 30ml's
since i used complete insect killer the B-cyfluthrin
killed some of the fuckers quick
and in the run off i saw alot of babys
hopefully the harvest isn't that bad

 

[Sam the Caveman]

I've been reading about diatomaceous earth, and it sounds perfect for killing root aphids. It also adds a significant source of Ca, silica, Mg and many trace elements. It sounds like the perfect amendment to combat the root aphids and benefit the plant.

I'll be doing some transplanting in a few days into coco amended with diatomaceous earth at a rate of 2 tbsp per gallon. Other amendments, 25% perlite, 25% mushroom compost and espoma bio-tone at 2 cups per 5 gallons.

 

[Headsmcgee1]

Found these little suckas crawlin around on the edges of red cups. The Red cups have plants started from seed which are about 3 to 4 weeks old. The cups are filled with coco and perlite. I did not see any of these bug on the undersides of the leafs. From what I have read I am pretty sure they are root aphids. Any thoughts? Should I soil drench? If so, what should I use (aza product, bayer product, botainagard?)

 

[Headsmcgee1]

Winged Root aphids?

 

[puff adder]

Absolutely!

Notice the wings extending past the abdomen, and round ass. The bodies change from those pics and stretch out a bit, looking more like fungus gnats, but they wings are still larger and are iridescent in the light.

 

[narf_]

Is this a fungus gnat?

 

[Headsmcgee1]

Absolutely!

Notice the wings extending past the abdomen, and round ass. The bodies change from those pics and stretch out a bit, looking more like fungus gnats, but they wings are still larger and are iridescent in the light.

From puff adder's description I would say yes. But the tail looks awfully pointy kind of reminds me of a mosquito.

 

[puff adder]

This pic looks more like a fungus gnat or mosquito. Notice the round wings that don't protrude past the tail end of the bug. Root aphid flyers have really long wings that are more slender.

Is this a fungus gnat?

 

[lilmiss]

I'll throw my name into the hat as well, I am currently fighting the root aphids. In my veg spot I treated with Spectracide at 11 ml per gallon, then hit them with the Bayer Tree and Shrub at 20ml per gallon the next day. That was a month ago, everything looks Great now, green and healthy... Except for the few dead and dying leaves at the bottoms of otherwise healthy plants. Then upon close inspection I spotted a crawly. OHNo!!!! So, I again treated with the Bayer Tree and Shrub, at 20ml per gallon and I will do another Spectracide treatment today (same dosage??) Any thoughts on what I should do next???

Big, Huge thanks to Spleebale, much karma to you brother.

 

[Headsmcgee1]

Wait a couple more days and do another treatment and if you have winged root aphids add yellow sticky tape.

 

[junior_grower]

well folks I have a room to be treated but Im am going to go with a H202 drench (kills them in stages 1-4) The mixing ratio will be a .25% by volume drench and it will stay in the resevior. My micro heard will be gone but so will these pests. Ill post results up over the next 2-3 weeks ( life cycle means I will be reapeating every 3 days for 4 weeks)

 

[Norkali]

Anybody trying SNS-203 as well?

I've been too scared to actually look for the crawlers, (I know, pathetic.) but have faith in my current regimen. Every watering is alternating between Botanigard 22WP and then SNS-203. We'll see - have growth and plants seem happy...knocking on wood often.

 

[WauiGreen]

Springtails

Springtails

the ones that bounce are probably springtails n they are good bugs - the phylloxera fly and crawl at different stages but dont fly till theres a lot of em. The citrus one WORKS - its about 6x more dilute so u use 6x as much to apply, apply with water ph balanced @ 30ml/gal top water it, and let the treatment soak in the roots for a day before you water again, and dont over water after you treat - then dont harvest for MIN 45 dayz.

Hey Fat J, I got springtails BAD, they have killed off half my grow. It's pretty much infestation level which has only been controlled with tobacco juice, I haven't noticed any other insect in the grow room but my plants have been v sick, I have lost about 12 of them so far. Do you think there could be something else in there that I haven't seen? Root aphids for example? I'm pretty new to this and this is my second round, the plants seem to be coming back a bit now and don't look like they will die but I've lost loads of seedlings and am my whits end trying to kill these little buggers, the plants looked like they had a calcium def first and then one of my superskunks looked like it had a massive mag def. I'm worried I have root aphids after reading this and but haven't noticed any on the soil or flying. I have limited access to bug control products, hence the tobacco juice, while they are looking better there are still a LOT of springtails in the soil and bouncing around the room. Can I ask out of curiosity how they are good bugs and should I stop trying to kill them? They make the leaves turn yellow and die from the tips (at least I think it's them). Thanks all for your comments and pointers in advance.

 

[Guywithoutajeep]

When I had root aphids some of my lower leaves half died. It looked like a classic phosphorus deficiency. Completely brown straight from the tip to half way down the leaf.

 

[lilmiss]

Hey Fat J, I got springtails BAD, they have killed off half my grow. It's pretty much infestation level which has only been controlled with tobacco juice, I haven't noticed any other insect in the grow room but my plants have been v sick, I have lost about 12 of them so far. Do you think there could be something else in there that I haven't seen? Root aphids for example? I'm pretty new to this and this is my second round, the plants seem to be coming back a bit now and don't look like they will die but I've lost loads of seedlings and am my whits end trying to kill these little buggers, the plants looked like they had a calcium def first and then one of my superskunks looked like it had a massive mag def. I'm worried I have root aphids after reading this and but haven't noticed any on the soil or flying. I have limited access to bug control products, hence the tobacco juice, while they are looking better there are still a LOT of springtails in the soil and bouncing around the room. Can I ask out of curiosity how they are good bugs and should I stop trying to kill them? They make the leaves turn yellow and die from the tips (at least I think it's them). Thanks all for your comments and pointers in advance.

Its root aphids brother. You have all the symptoms of them. Springtails are "good" bugs, and don't destroy your plants like that. I know that people would rather it be Anything else other than RA's but bite the bullet, you have the plague. Treat your ladies accordingly.

In veg I used the Bayer Tree and Shrub as a soil drench at 20mls per gallon. Also treated with Triazicide at 11ml per gallon, although that stuff is not necessary, I've read. Then, a month later I spotted the tiny fast moving crawlies and hit them with the Bayer again. Go to home depot and pick up the bayer, its not too expensive.

 

[junior_grower]

Well after treatment 1 population is down by 90%, a nother good dose is due tommorow.

 

[EclipseFour20]

From research on how vineyards, tobacco farmers, lettuce growers, and the academics dealt with aphid like pests, and of course you got to do the "stoner logic" research from the usual forums, and...I think this thread has the best ideas...so to help others, here is what I discovered, stole and applied:

Not one item will work...in of itself. Rotation of both contact and systematic control is required (i.e. spray this week with canola oil, next week with petroleum, the following with neem, then pyrethrins, and finally back to canola....Imid in veg and AzaMax in flower) as well as drench then double dunk with pyrethrins-soap-pryethrins.

Background: Perfectionist by birth, connoisseur by choice; I grow indoor, soil, 100% organic, there are separate veg and flower environments, 99% are my own clones, been managing fungus gnats for 2 years (100% organically) and they ceased being an issue 6 months ago (yahoo AzaMax), started seeing on the floor and base of the plants dried brown dots (dead crabs), then about 2 months ago while watering I saw these little dots running races around the rims of the container. Grabbed the 45x glass and started spraying and drenching the with canola oil spray--and then ten days ago...I inspected the soil and was heartbroken to see the millions of aphids partying and carrying on.

I have 1 fussy pussy strain that started have issues with wilting fan leaves and started to show signs of early nute burn. Then 2 weeks ago, the tiny leaves on the top buds on my hearty strain started dying off early exhibiting the burnt fan leave/nute toxic thing--while other leaves look perfectly healthy; without issues. BTW...I have real healthy roots and have consistent harvests in the 50 grams per plant range.

Lights are 600w HPS, 400w MH and I use 3 gallon containers, CO2 both veg & flower and not afraid to flower as long as it takes...no reason to rush. Here are my experiences...but I think I nailed something in the process of my Second Treatment; force aphids to group together before you wipe ‘em out!

First Treatment 11/11/10

Strategy: Use a combination of canola and petroleum oil treatment via the traditional drench and dunk method, thereby remaining 100% organic.

Products:
Natria Multi-insect Control Concentrate: Canola Oil 96%
Bonide All Seasons Horticultural & Dormant Spray Oil Concentrate, Petroleum Oil 98.8%
AzaMax, Azadirachtin 1.2%
Bonide Citrus, Fruit & Nut Orchard Spray RTS, Sulfur 10%, Pyrethrins 0.25% (note...it was Sunday and this was the only concentrated pyrethrin product on the shelf)

Technique (all quantities are for 1 gallon of water):
1. Pre-water soil. Each plant received 24 oz of water with Epsom Salts (10 ml).
2. First insecticide drench. Each plant received 32 oz of water with Natria (1% or 38 ml) and Bonide Oil Concentrate (1% or 38 ml)...for a total of 2% or 75 ml.
3. Top spray container and soil top with Natria (2% solution in spray bottle)
4. Second insecticide drench. Each plant received 16 oz of water with AzaMax (0.8% or 30 ml)
5. Wait until runoff starts. As the liquids seeped into the soil, the crawling pests ran to “drier grounds” and started to escape through the drain holes.
6. Container dunk. Each plant was dunked for 10 seconds in a 5 gallon bucket containing water with Bonide Pyrethrin concentrate (4% or 151 ml).

Observations:
Inspecting the soil through the corner drain holes (postage stamp sized) I observed the following:
1. Prior to treatment there were literally hundreds of green aphids in all life stages.
2. Immediately after treatment--very little were observed, but they were moving slow.
3. Two days after treatment--more activity.
4. Day 5 small critters were running laps around the container top lip.
5. Ten days later...business as usual, RO festival in every plant munching away, singing and dancing.

Lessons learned: Oils do not work by themselves--multiple strategies, both active and passive are required.

Second Treatment 11/23/10

Strategy: Use specific liquids in the soil to drive the pests toward the container bottom--where they will be annihilated in a dunk. Provide nutrients and remove the waxy buildup on the roots the root aphids left behind--which contain toxins, pathogens, viruses, bacteria, etc. To initiate a systematic management program to prevent future damage...using the least harmful darkside option (non-organic), and rebuild damaged roots.

Products:
Spectracide Garden Insect Killer Concentrate (32 oz, $20.40) Pyrethrins 0.3%
Safer Insect Killing Soap Concentrate (16 oz, $9.25) Potassium Salts of Fatty Acids 49.52%
Bayer Advanced Fruit, Citrus & Vegetable Insect Control (32 oz, $20.06) Imidacoprid 0.235%

Technique (quantities are for 1 gallon of water)
1. Dried out containers for 4 plus days (skipped 1 water/nute & 1 fert session and no one was limp)
2. Pre-water soil. Each plant received 24 to 48 oz...enough to adequately moisten the soil of water with Epsom Salts (10 ml) and H2O2 (10 ml).
3. Loosen/cultivate soil to prevent further liquids from draining out through container sides.
4. Nuted soil. Each plant received 30 oz plus of water with Silica Blast (5 ml) and Grow More Seaweed Extract (15 ml); I bulked up extra bone dry plants with additional portions of this brew...and immediately,
5. Pyrethrin drench. Each plant received 16 oz of water with Spectracide (2 oz) and the soil-fluids were mixed well, insuring 100% of the soil surface is treated.
6. Wait until the fluids start flowing through drain holes. Good time to take your 45x glass and watch the critters congregate at the drain holes.
7. First Pyrethrin dunk. Each plant is dunked in a 5 gallon bucket for 10 seconds such that 50% of the container is submerged in a solution consisting of water with Spectracide (2 oz)...then drain for 10-15 seconds, and immediately,
8. Soap dunk. Each plant is dunked in a 5 gallon bucket for 2 minutes such that 100% of the container is submerged in a solution consisting of water with Safer Soap (2% or 75 ml).
9. Drain. Good idea to capture and inspect the runoff, and then after an hour or so (or in my situation, after several fatties and cleaning all plant saucers and their room)...
10. Second Pyrethrin dunk. Do it again to wipe out any and all stragglers...10-15 seconds.
11. Pyrethrin Spray. Pour some of the pyrethrin solution in a spray bottle and generously spray the container top, sides and soil surface.
12. Darkside drench. Each plant received 1.5 ml of the evil empire in an 8 oz dosage of water with Bayer Imid (24 ml).
Rational: According to Bayer, vegetable application is 1/2 ounce (15 ml) in 1 quart of water for every 10 square feet...which equates to 1.5 ml per plant since my containers are about 1 sq foot. I chose to deliver 8 oz of water (easy to measure and deliver)...so 16 times 8 oz water = 1 gallon and 16 times 1.5 ml equals 24 ml. Using grapes as the crop to mimic (30 days)--all plants in veg and those 30 or more days from harvest were treated. Imid is safe for wineries (glass-winged sharpshooter), tobacco farmers, lettuce growers...so used at minute doses--is preferred over poo, and pathogens, viruses, bacteria and spores these little shits spread from plant to plant.
13. Rebuild roots. Added to every water and nute brew was and will continue to be Hygrozyme (8 ml) and Rhizotonic (8 ml) at 2-3 day intervals.
14. Inoculate soil with bacteria. Have not started yet, but every 7-10 days I will rotate some BT, spinosad and other beneficial bacteria.
15. Continue the Azamax treatment of 3 ml/gallon at every feeding and once the aphids are in check, rotate Botanigard’s Mycoinsecticide as a replacement for Darth Vader’s power.

Observations:
1. Prior to the treatment there were literally hundreds of aphids competing for real estate and there appeared to be nymphs or clear maggot-like worm shits and for the first time the appearance of winged aphids was quite noticeable.
2. After the first pyrethrin and soap dunk, there were some slow moving survivors, but 90% of the pests were gone or dead.
3. After the final pyrethrin dunk, there were zero survivors and the wormy shits were flipping out violently.
4. 24 hours later--zero movement all plants healthy, vibrant and standing tall.

Lessons learned: Doing the drench to drive the pests into the waiting pyrethrin dunk was a great trap to wipe out the masses. The second pyrethrin dunk seemed to have caught all survivors and the lucky few that were missed the first time around. The insecticidal soap seemed to have cleaned up the roots a bit...perhaps repeated applications might be appropriate.

I think ultimate solution for us mmj cultivators may not actually be “which potion and how much”...rather it will probably be a combination of potions or a “cocktail” of potions to be rotated; probably on a 30-45 day rotation--since nothing seems to work 100%...by itself.

Update on my escapades in a few days.