I need your help ! stealth growroom sketch up/setup , veg+flower

[Bonavendura]

Hello everyone i need your Help ,
After growing in soil and in rdwc hydro i close down everything
for a couple of years and i give away EVERY single part of my equipment.
I am now setting up my new grow room and i will go for the following setup
-Flower room 2*600 Watt HPS

9 Hempy's in 12 liter / 3 gallon buckets under each 600W
18 Hempy's in total with a 2 meter X 1 meter (3*6 feet)
scrog screen over them
-Veg room 1*400 MH

18 Hempy's in 4 liters / 1 gallon buckets in 1 meter X 1 meter space -
-Moms+ clones (in veg room) 2*floro fixtures

2 moms under floro and clones under another fixture

I will build in my basement wich is EMPTY
and 70 square meters / 750 square feet free space
After the text you can see my sketch up .
My primary target is to make it as stealth as it can be
i will say that this is my Photography Darkroom.
So i don't want fan's or anything outside the room everything
MUST be inside the room and only air coming in and getting out.
In the flowering room i am going to use for exaust fans

-Marked with A in sketch
ETALINE 1400 m^3/h or Boxed 1500m^3/h with a matching carbon filter
-Marked with B in sketch
Ruck rvk 200-300 m^3/h for light cooling

In the Veg/mom's room
-Marked with C in sketch
500m^3 boxed exaust fan with matching carbon filter
I am still working on the setup and i need your opinions
and advices for anything that will improve my setup
or reduce my buy list .
Here is my sketch up

Thanks all.

 

[Bonavendura]

Come on guys give me some help here ,
I make a new sketch and remove one fan and
one carbon filter.
What do you think ?

 

[Bonavendura]

Hello everyone ,
Today together with my partner we clean and disinfect all the 70 square meters (750 square feet) , it was a complete empty space that after 5 hours + it is cleaner than a surgery room.
I am waiting for you sugestions cause Monday i start building the walls of my grow rooms .

So come inside and give me a hand !

 

[Bonavendura]

Tomorrow or the day after , i will finish my drywall instalation and i will post my first photos.
The strain is going to be AK47 and the seed germination begins in the next 5 days.
My plans is to go for the second sketch setup and if i have heat issues throw one more carbon filter + fan.

This is the updates that i have for you i am waiting for your ideas on my ventilation setup.

 

[sanjuan]

I'm picturing a condensation/humidity problem in your basement. I don't know where you live (and I'm not asking). Also wondering if this is a heated basement.

I'm not familiar with european stuff but I don't see a 1400cmh Etaline at dampkring.nl

 

[hazydreams]

i would consider changing either the inlet or outlet location of your hood vent. You dont want to be sucking in and exhausting the hot light air into the lung room unless its climate controlled. this will lead to rapid temp rise as the 12 hour cycle progresses during the day. if its possible exhaust the air out side. if that is not possible you might want to try to put the inlet outside at least there will be some sort of temperature differential between the intake and exhausted air.

as a final solution you might want to look into A/C in the basement or water cooling it with a water box and chiller. just my 2 cents.

 

[Bonavendura]

@sanjuan

I hope i that i will avoid humidity issues i have now humidity level of
50% - 60% percent but humidity is easy to beat with a dehumidifier.
You can see the 1455m^3 ETALINE here
http://www.dutchlightingsolutions.nl/index.php?p=product-details&id=1175

i don't know if i can use it inline cause i dont see connection muffler in the front of the fan.
No the basement is not heated and this is good cause right now outside temps is 25 celsius (77 F)

@hazydreams

You have a point here with the heat build up in the lung room but keep in mind that it is a 70+ squre meter (750+ square feet) room.
How much 1200+400 Watt of HPS can raise the temps in such a large space ??

I would like to avoid A/C instalation not just for cost buying it but for the KW usage cost wich is like running almost one 1000 watter more.
If i use the KW of an A/C then maybe i will build a sealed room and add some CO2 there too but THIS SETUP it is way out of my budget right now.
The same case is for the water chillers as they cost about 500 and they use 650W/hour

I can draw fresh air from outside for cooling the lamps but at summer times this
air will be at 40 maybe 45 degrees Celsius (105-115 F) .
I am thinking draw air form outside with a small fan just for air circulation

I know that i make it hard for you but it is hard for me too , i must found a way
make my grow room work in aceptable temps until i can switch to sealed in about a year from now.

Any ideas ?


ps.
Tommorow i will install the doors and i will post some pics from the drywall instalation

 

[Phillthy]

50-60% RH is where i veg and flower with no issues. i dont see a problem with that at all as long as your temps are nice.

you can save on materials by buying one large carbon scrubber and placing it in flower. you can draw your air intake from flower into veg and blow back into flower. scrub the air in flower and exhaust. best bet would be to make a sealed room within your basement and scrub it and run co2. no intakes or exhaust means better security.... much more stealth.

 

[Bonavendura]

Do you think that sealed with a water cooling system on the 2*600W with a small scruber
running inside can keep my temps under control cause if i can cut money from the 1400 ETALINE and the matching carbon filter the only issue with water cooling is the 650W/hour usage


Edit:
After searching around Ice box cooling systems is not easy to find online in europe.
I have no time for such a big change in my plans cause i have some clones waiting for the grow rooms to be
ready.

 

[hazydreams]

Do you think that sealed with a water cooling system on the 2*600W with a small scruber
running inside can keep my temps under control cause if i can cut money from the 1400 ETALINE and the matching carbon filter the only issue with water cooling is the 650W/hour usage


Edit:
After searching around Ice box cooling systems is not easy to find online in europe.
I have no time for such a big change in my plans cause i have some clones waiting for the grow rooms to be
ready.

6 square feet with 1200w is going to get hot in a sealed room with no form of climate control. A heat exchanger/water box could be built by hand from a transmission cooler if your set on sealing it. at the minimum your going to need a chiller and some form of co2 enrichment to pull off a sealed room. knowing that the temps outside in the summer are going to be excess of 100* i would def consider A/C or Water cooling as a necessity.

Your trying to shoot for 75* as a max temp. can you grow above that? yes, do you want to probably not with out c02 enrichment and even then your looking at a max temp of around 85*.

In short. I think during the cooler months you will be fine air cooling the lights and intake and exhausting into the room. During the summer you might find your temps climbing.

As far as a sealed room, you need two things to accomplish that, climate control and CO2. if you dont have money for both, trash the sealed room idea.

Keeping with your design above i would do this.

keep the light intake and exahust inside the lung room. Vent cool air in from OUTSIDE so at least there is cooler fresh air comming in. Carbon scrub both rooms. I dont think you need crazy expensive fans to accomplish this. a 6 inch inline 400cfm blower should be able to handle the hoods no problem. a 6-8 inch inclie for exhausting the carbon filter.

For the summer months i would work on a DIY heat exchanger and look around for a used chiller. They can be had for almost HALF MSRP used. Set it up inside the room so that the air is being circulated thru the heat exchanger via a fan and you should be all right.

 

[Bonavendura]

It is not 6 square feet with 1200W the flower room is 46 square feet and the veg room 36 square feet 80+ square feet in total
and the lung room is 750 square feet.

One think i sure at the moment i cannot spend money to build a sealed room.

75 degress in my grow room is my dream for years i usally make my grows at 80 - 85 F
without CO2 enrichment and always always fighting with high temps.

I hope that cause i will grow in a basement this time the ambient outside temps
will not affect much my lung room temps i think that i can have my lung room temps
at less than 77 F when outside going over 100 F
i this just a dream ???

What do you think for the 300 cfm for the 1200W and 820 cfm for scrub and exaust ?
Do you think that i need bigger fans ?

 

[hazydreams]

sorry about that typo i meant to say 6x6 room. not 6 square feet.

about the fans

being that your pulling thru 2 hoods i would look into something in the 400cfm range. that will give you enough extra jsut in case you have to ramp up the fans during the hot months. you should definatly put speed controllers on your fans as theres no use running them at max output unless its needed. i would reconsider the use of the large fan for the carbon filters. you could get away with two smaller ones and save yourself some money. i think that 3 - 6" 400 cfm inlines will do beautifully. 2 carbon scrubbers and one light exhaust.

as far as temps. you are in a basement which is insulated on three sides via the earth. this works to your advantage and against you.

I also have a set up in a basement. 1kw Hps aircooled and 400w MH. Outdoor temps routinly get into the 95* range during the summer. what i encounter is that in the late fall, winter, spring and early summer i am ok. As the temps start rising outdoors the air inside the basement rises as well. you start to lose the cooling ability of the earth around you when the ground warms and the basement tends to stay a certain temp no matter what. to compound the problem you are now insultating hot air inside from any temp difference outside and your pumping hot air into the lung room via the hoods.

In my case during the winter the ambient temps in my lung room are around 65*. during the height of summer my ambients are around 75+ degrees in the lung room. This eqautes to 85+* in the flowering room when the light is on at full tilt. this is all with a twin blower set up that exhausted the air inside the room outside completely thru a carbon filter and one fan working the hoods. for a time i had the hood intake and exhausting in the lung room. by changing the location of the exhaust of the hood to Outdoors i saw almost 8* change during the height of the summer. the flowering room now runs at around 78* in the height of the summer heat. 8* doesnt sound like much but it was a MASSIVE GAIN and the plants love it. i suspect your case will be similar that even with your large square footage you are going to add additional heat to the lung room that cannot be dissipated readily and in the summer temps are gonna climb.

 

[Bonavendura]

Do you think that there is a diffence in price (2 scrubers + 2 400 cfm) vs (1 bigger scruber and 800+ cfm)
or you suggest this to me cause you find it nicer as a setup , my first plans was with 2 fans and 2 carbon filters
as you can see in my first sketch up but i found that i will save some money with one bigger fan.

We will have almost the same setup in our basements and with high outside temps,
8 degrees is enough to save you or destroy you and i learn this lesson.
If i understand correct winter time you exaust inside your lung room keeping this way the temps
from going too low and summer time you exaust outside trying to keep you lung room as cold as you can.

What about your lung rooms air ?
Do you refresh it somehow ?
and if you refresh it , i imagine you bring fresh air from outside , but when the summer time
outside temps is over 100*F i imagine this is a problem

And all this problems cause i cannot spend the money for one A/C unit and spend 800KW/hour for
cooling thinks down ....

 

[hazydreams]

the air cooled hood is set up to permanently exhaust out doors. i was showing you the value of letting the hot air out. that accounts for 8* in all seasons! i had it set up exhausting and intaking inside the lung room for a long time and ill tell you after switching it to exhausting outdoors, its worth the hassle to figure out a way to do so.


as far as the lung room air, i have a dual fan in a basement window that is set on a timer to exhaust and inlet air once every 3 hours for 10 mins during the winter. In the summer i set it to come on at sunset and run until sun up. THIS WORKS WELL!!!

Carbon scrubbers i build myself. cost 60 bucks start to finish about 20 in material and 40 in carbon and is completely scalable. look up DIY carbon filters.

Exhaust fans. The debate on more smaller fans versus one large fan rages on to this day, and there is no end in sight. i can see for an efficiency stand point on large scale setups. but in your and my case we are talking pennies on a dollar maybe less in electricity! the capital investment on one of these large fans is STEEP!

you hinted that you were in Europe in one of your posts i think. this being the case i have no idea what voltage your running on. but with something like this available for 120v @ 75 bucks. i would FORGET high end crap. ebay is wonderful. provided you were on 120v i would buy three of these, 10-20 feet of 6 " flex duct and build two scrubbers. VOILA DONE! (i own that exact fan, it has been running non stop for 8 months, Has NO PROBLEM huffing thru my 8 inch carbon filter with the speedster set on half power! also pretty quiet).


I dont run AC either because it would blow the effiency aspect of my grow out of the water. its expensive enough running 1400w of light with a 1000w on 12 hours a day and the 400 on 24 hours. let alone the 15-20k btu a/c id need to seal it up tight.

 

[Bonavendura]

I really cannot think how i can blow my exaust out of the basement ,
i must find a way it is a sure think that 8* F worth it.

As i see in your log you are very good on DIY ,
unfortulatly i must buy my carbon filters cause
find the materials to build them is very hard and
i do not have enough time for this.


As for the extractor fans 500-600 cfm cost over 170$
around here and i must make them silent with a DYI constraction
so i am thinking pay 360$ to buy one 1500m^3/hour (850cfm) boxed fan
like this http://www.dampkring.nl/14900/boxed-extractor-fan.html
and a matching carbon filter , i know it is a lot of money
but i must pay them.

For A/C's now and specificly for split A/C's.
I don't know hom much energy they spend kw/hour
if you set them in auto mode so they will
keep temps constant 77 * F.
One think is for sure when i am doing this in my house
the A/C unit turn on and off or work
at higher speeds for sometime very lower
speeds for sometimes .
The papers say that 1 ton split A/C consume
almost 1kw/hour but is this on auto or
i FULL Speed ???

Sealing my room it is not so hard to do
but i cannot affort the extra cost
for AC an CO2 monitor and injection systems
plus i cannot use this extra 1kw/hour i am
afraid of raising flags with my total electricity
consumption.Sealed room is a dream , nothing coming
in nothing coming out , no noise and with CO2
gpw is going to be by FAR better

 

[hazydreams]

after seeing your pictures on the build up i can see its all concrete construction. that makes placing a hole VERY HARD as i can see. really if AC is a dream then i would look into a chiller and a Heat exchanger. Ive heard that the chiller watt for watt cools better then an AC because water is a more efficient means of transferring heat. until them just exhaust it outside the room like you were planning. just my two cents man! you defiantly did a good job on your design!