pH keeps climbing WTF?

[highonmt]

I dont think ALL elements are chelated in nute lines are they. all im thinking is if citric acid will further help ill add a bit. what you think its not nessasary? Ive never seen a def to date concerning this issue anyway. Like i said earlier its irrelevent in MY Hydro solutions"! But absolutely anyway we can improve uptake of Nutrients & im into considering it! do you get me bro! I wont even buy a product if it hasnt Chelated EDTA Fe etc! Thats what i was saying all the Lines that Canna Hydrogarden AN etc make these days are fine. I never see any Precip.

Hydroton needs a bloody good soak, then wash, then soak then wash, then its fine, been using the stuff for years"! Clean as Fk as long as its treated right! Not a Single visible particle in my Res man!

Chelation of metals is essential for bioavailability but solution chemisty is complicated. Too much is a good thing (chelation) will also decrease bioavailability. And some salts actually keep others in solution ,phosphate is chelated (some would say they mearly form a coordination complex) by carbonate for instance. If your up for an experiment chuck some in the res and see what happens. and I do get you brosef why have your micro nutrients sitting on the bottom of the rez when you can protect them with a nice hexa-dentate chelating agent like edta.
HM

 

[Budmentor]

I'm gonna try to stay on point here. Living in an area with high calcium and magnesium in the water, I've come to this conclusion: When you add a bubbler to the res in a CO2 rich environment (supplemental CO2) the free calcium bonds with the CO2 creating calcium carbonate, raising the pH. Sometimes we've had to go to R/O water because we couldn't get well water under control. I've also had pH problems with the cheaper grow rocks.

 

[kstampy]

I'll try that next time scroger but hopefully the fytocell I ordered works out better then I may be sticking with that. For now I have been using soil with hydroton at the bottom for drainage no soak needed there, has been a relief lol

 

[Scrogerman]

Hey Spurr!
Can you check out Post 42(Pg3) please & tell me what you think, theres a few points id like clarified here/there. I edited the post to incluce a link too. Im still rapping my head around this one bro lol!

"Water with high alkalinity is said to be "hard." The most prevalent mineral compound causing alkalinity is calcium carbonate?"

here it issave you the bother)

Alkalinity in water comes from a high concentration of carbon-based mineral molecules suspended in the solution. Water with high alkalinity is said to be "hard." The most prevalent mineral compound causing alkalinity is calcium carbonate, which can come from rocks such as limestone or can be leached from dolomite and calcite in the soil. Water treatment plants can be treated to a higher alkalinity. ​

I cant get my head round what you were saying mate?

It seems the carbontes make up both the Alkalinity & the Hardness but have seperate measures of TDS, this is what i dont get, they are directly related, no?
KH has a direct affect on PH? Help brake this down so i can understand it bro?(Please!!)

Cheers Bro!

did you manage to take at look at BT's thread on 'Basic Water Chemstry', cracking little thread & great reference material!
Things like this:

(Now let’s discuses (Soft Water). Any water that does not contain large concentrations of the dissolved minerals calcium or magnesium. This will alter both the (pH) and the electrical conductivity.)

And This:
Buffering Capacity (KH, Alkalinity)
Buffering capacity refers to your systems water's ability to keep the pH stable as nutrients or additives are added. pH and buffering capacity are intertwined with one another; if the water has sufficient buffering capacity, the buffering capacity can absorb and neutralize the added acid without significantly changing the pH. Conceptually, a buffer acts somewhat like a large sponge. As more acid is added, the ``sponge'' absorbs the acid without changing the pH much. The ``sponge's'' capacity is limited however; once the buffering capacity is used up in your system water/nutrient, the pH changes more rapidly as acids are added.
Buffering has both positive and negative consequences. On the plus side, the nitrogen cycle produces nitric acid (nitrate). I feel I need interject some here, remember those little things I talk about all the time you know (Beneficial Bacterium) they are responsible for accelerating nitrogen cycle and producing nitric acid that is (nitrate), right about now there’s another one of those little lights going off in a growers mind. Without buffering, your tank's pH would drop over time (a bad thing). With sufficient buffering, the pH stays stable (a good thing), is this all ringing any bell’s or what!! On the negative side, hard tap water often almost always has a large buffering capacity. If the pH of the water is too high for your plants, the buffering capacity makes it difficult to lower the pH to a more appropriate value. Attempts to change the pH of water usually fail because buffering effects are ignored.
The water that I recommend to use the most in the Bio-Bucket System is simply tap-water, most tap-water has a buffering capacity that is due to carbonates and bicarbonates. Thus, the terms ``carbonate hardness'' (KH), ``alkalinity'' and ``buffering capacity'' are used interchangeably. Although technically not the same things. Note: the term ``alkalinity'' should not be confused with the term ``alkaline''. Alkalinity refers to buffering, while alkaline refers to a solution that is a base (i.e., pH > 7).
How much buffering does your Bio-System need? The larger the (KH), the more resistant to pH changes your water will be. A Bio-Systems water (KH) should be high enough to prevent large pH swings in your Bio-System over time. If your (KH) is below roughly 5.0, you should pay special attention to your tank's pH (test daily, until you get a feel for how stable the pH is). This is ESPECIALLY important if you neglect to do frequent partial water changes or go long term use such as in the Bio-Buckets. In particular, the nitrogen cycle creates a tendency for an established systems pH to decrease over time. The exact amount of pH change depends on the quantity and rate of nitrates produced, as well as the (KH). If your pH drops more than roughly two tenths of a point over a day or two, you should consider increasing the (KH) or performing partial water changes more frequently. (KH) doesn't affect the plants directly, so there’s no need in immediate action but I would keep an eye on it.
It Should Be Noted, So Pay Close Attention: BigToke does not recommend any kind of softening water methods, it is not a good idea to even use distilled water in your Bio-System. By definition, distilled water has essentially no (KH). That means that adding even a little bit of acid will change the pH significantly (stressing plants). Because of its instability, distilled (or any essentially other soft-water processing methods) is never used directly. Tap water or other salts must first be added to it in order to increase its (GH) and (KH).

(From BigToke's Basic water chemistry thread)-

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=23357



It seems the harder the water(KH) the better the buffering capacity.

Also buddy, have you got anything on filtering water through S.Peat? is that RO of some sort? its unfamilier to me this one bro?(s.peat?)

 

[rj28racer]

added more nutes, sure enough stabilized ph to 5.3, got up this morning plants didn't look happy, little wilting , very few leaves slight brown on tip. Went from 800-900's ppm to 1100-1180 ppm , was this too much? Brought back down to 800 ppm flooded and drain , hope this helps , top watering with pure distilled water adjusted to 5.3, to flush a little. going right direction here? thanks

 

[highonmt]

scrogger,

I know you didn't ask me but I just cant resist... You are mixing your hardness p's and q's... General hardness is the concentration of divalent (Ca +2, Mg +2 and other like Fe +2 etc) in the water. This is the classic hard water scenario that has made the cullagin man rich. Replace the Ca and Mg with monovalent Na and walla soap bubbles. General hardness in not a bad thing in Hydroponics just more Calmag (up to a point of course.
KH or Carbonate hardness ( also known as temporary hardness because you can remove excess carbonates by boiling)is the amount of Carbonate and bicarbonate in the water and represents the primary buffering capacity of the water. High KH = high buffering capacity and very stable pH ie resistant to ph changes low KH = low buffering capacity and unstable pH.

EC is the electrical resistance of the solution. You can increase EC without changing GH or KH by adding NaCl or other non carbonate monovalent salts (+1 charge)

Now to alkalinity; This is the capacity of the solution to nutralize acid. Alkalinity is the total amount of base and conjugate bases in solution. Carbonate alkylinity is the major factor in tap water but things like phosphate, KOH, and the conjugate bases of organic acids all play a part. Think ALKA seltser in your acidic belly after margaritas and enchiladas.

Hope this helps friend.
HM

 

[Scrogerman]

This one gets me bro. I was earlier corrected by spurr but still dont get it totally lol, i cant see what i was saying was wrong bro!

hard water is generally in a higher PH range & has much better buffering cap that soft, i was told this is wrong, but i dont see how!(post 39) opening comments! Ill get it all one day, maybe laymans terms may help bro!

 

[Scrogerman]

This quote in the same post too.??
Quote:Scrogerman
If your PH is shooting up more than 0.5 in 12 hours, you prolly need to increase your feed a bit.
If after say 3 days your PH is still drifting more than 0.5 in 12 hours im certain you need to increase your feed strength. (edit-btw, an increase &or decrease of 0.5 or more is known to cause stress, so adjust in 0.2's & leave it a while before further adjustments, this will reduce any unessasary stress caused to your plants )

(Spurr)
If pH is increasing that much he/she needs to reduce the alkalinity, not feed more, that's the culprit most of the time. Trying to continually reduce pH (via. some fert ions as EC that drops pH, or adding pH down) is only a band-aid to the problem; also, too high of an EC is bad, so it's not a good fix. To fix the problem filtering through plain s.peat to reduce alkalinity is the way to go. If alkalinity is very high, then mixing tap with RO (ex. 50% tap and 50% RO) might be needed to keep water alkalinity < 100 ppm.


In my experience its the other way around! its usually an indicator of EC being too low! What if your Alk is OK, then its EC yeah?

Smoking Good Bud & Confusion, its great i love it lol!

See once my EC is at the correct strength my PH stays where i put it, then i know im in the right ballpark, as long as EC is stable too. This is how we pilot our grows, charting & manipulating PH & EC!

The only way to actually truely know your ALK is get a analysis off you water board.(ppms)

So Alkalinity & Kh/Dh together make up total hardness(better go & read BT's thread again for the 125th time lol), is that what you mean, lol im stoneed!
Im sure one of you guys will put me straight! N1

btw, if i mixed RO with my Tap id reduce my waters PH buffering capacity & would have to adjust more regularly, or do you think i have this wrong? I know RO has little in the way of Buffering due to taking out the carbonates(Ca&Mg) Id only consider doing 50/50 RO/Tap if my base tap reading was silly high(300+ppms or higher could warrent such a move).

BT also says Filtering water de-stabilises it, so it aint just as straight forward as that.(you are effectively de-stabilising the waters Alkalinity), this can Fk things up too.

 

[Scrogerman]

added more nutes, sure enough stabilized ph to 5.3, got up this morning plants didn't look happy, little wilting , very few leaves slight brown on tip. Went from 800-900's ppm to 1100-1180 ppm , was this too much? Brought back down to 800 ppm flooded and drain , hope this helps , top watering with pure distilled water adjusted to 5.3, to flush a little. going right direction here? thanks

yeah sounds like you made the right move man!

EC-Up & Ph Down = Too Mean (Strong) EC
EC-Down & PH UP = Too Lean (weak)
Stable = Stable. = Should mean your plants are Happy!

Its a good idea to keep things just on the lean side as overfertilisation is well know to have a negative effect on your plants & growth etc & will ultimately reduce yields.(+ you'll benefit from a slow PH rise over a few day period as plants eat/take up different elements in solution at different PH values, like i said before a PH drift up this way indicates a healthy system & is our/my goal)
stick with it & Chart & manipulate like you have been & your steller!

 

[kstampy]

What about EC up and pH up?

 

[Scrogerman]

thats the water!
I find waters(Kh) like a sponge like i said, it has a saturation point, pH will always rise untill ive added a certain amount of add-backs & PH down. after 3 days ill take my true readings.
Ill have to check,(i think certain Buffers are in more control by this time as the sponge is filled to cap)
same with EC Down/PH Down, i note that usually as a bacterial issue, this is usually, i rarly get EC & PH not doing what its supposed to do, or rather what i expect!
Atmospheric Co2 can affect this too (have i got that right), like i said ill have to check, but those ways are not the norm for me.(never happens to me) Solutions temps can also affect PH, theres a few considerations based on environment! now ive opened a can of worms lol!+ my memory is like sieve! lol
Im sure BT goes into it in that thread, again im reading it now!

Whats your take on it KStamp? anything to add/contribute!

Add PH down to straight water or RO(0-Kh) & it'll fight its way back to where it started if im not mistaken.(there is no sponge for buffering)

 

[Scrogerman]

This is a paragraph i relate to: (taken from BT's thread!)

The water that I recommend to use the most in the Bio-Bucket System is simply tap-water, most tap-water has a buffering capacity that is due to carbonates and bicarbonates. Thus, the terms ``carbonate hardness'' (KH), ``alkalinity'' and ``buffering capacity'' are used interchangeably. Although technically not the same things. Note: the term ``alkalinity'' should not be confused with the term ``alkaline''.

 

[spurr]

@ scrogerman and all,

I will respond to the posts soon, I have to catch up on other threads and PM first. yrs, spurr.

 

[Scrogerman]

Ok Spurr bro, NP! laters & G'Luck

Its Scroger's weekly Skining(hair-cut) anyway! Later-On!

 

[rj28racer]

Our water in our area is really bad 8.4 ph + . the guy at the hydro store said to use distilled water , which I have been using ( small grow 6 plants) with really good results with Fox Farms, 5.3/800-900 ppm, except for ph rising daily and when I went to 1100 ppm plants seem not to like it. Tried to search distilled water not much on it. Any opinions on using distilled water.
( rockwool cubes, hydroton, flood and drain, 10gal res. air stone (not blue), power jet with air tube.)

 

[kstampy]

thats the water!
I find waters(Kh) like a sponge like i said, it has a saturation point, pH will always rise untill ive added a certain amount of add-backs & PH down. after 3 days ill take my true readings. I never experienced that, Always had pH swing up every time I topped off in a 2 week period. Mind you it was flood&drain w/ hydroton (maybe 5% ended up not getting washed off? I was noob then) and my rez wasn't covered etc, too many variables for my situation to really pin it down... perhaps that had to do with a bunch of issues lol. I experienced this with both hardish tap (350-450ppm 7.5-8.5pH) and RO water.
Ill have to check,(i think certain Buffers are in more control by this time as the sponge is filled to cap)
same with EC Down/PH Down, i note that usually as a bacterial issue, this is usually, i rarly get EC & PH not doing what its supposed to do, or rather what i expect! I could see bacteria playing a role, like I said I never used a cover so there was definitely light getting in to the rez 12 hours a day. I did use 35% h202 @ 1ml/L every top off though.
Atmospheric Co2 can affect this too (have i got that right)HEAVY car traffic in my area does that matter, I dono?, like i said ill have to check, but those ways are not the norm for me.(never happens to me) Solutions temps can also affect PH, theres a few considerations based on environment! now ive opened a can of worms lol! OI! lol + my memory is like sieve! lol
Im sure BT goes into it in that thread, again im reading it now!

Whats your take on it KStamp? anything to add/contribute! That's all I got for ye, you have perked my interest to dive deeper in to the subject thank you! I am always willing to add my 2 common cents and experience

Add PH down to straight water or RO(0-Kh) & it'll fight its way back to where it started if im not mistaken.(there is no sponge for buffering)From my experience (not knowledge) this seems to be true.

Good info, keep it comin!

 

[highonmt]

This quote in the same post too.??
Quote:Scrogerman
If your PH is shooting up more than 0.5 in 12 hours, you prolly need to increase your feed a bit.
If after say 3 days your PH is still drifting more than 0.5 in 12 hours im certain you need to increase your feed strength. (edit-btw, an increase &or decrease of 0.5 or more is known to cause stress, so adjust in 0.2's & leave it a while before further adjustments, this will reduce any unessasary stress caused to your plants )

(Spurr)
If pH is increasing that much he/she needs to reduce the alkalinity, not feed more, that's the culprit most of the time. Trying to continually reduce pH (via. some fert ions as EC that drops pH, or adding pH down) is only a band-aid to the problem; also, too high of an EC is bad, so it's not a good fix. To fix the problem filtering through plain s.peat to reduce alkalinity is the way to go. If alkalinity is very high, then mixing tap with RO (ex. 50% tap and 50% RO) might be needed to keep water alkalinity < 100 ppm.

Yep good advice here dilution with ro is one solution to high carbonate harndess, high carbonate hardness is the cause of the resistance to change in pH (this by the way is the definition of a "Buffer"

The peat moss contains organic acids that will bind caronate another viable solution to high carbonate again good advice.


In my experience its the other way around! its usually an indicator of EC being too low! What if your Alk is OK, then its EC yeah?

Umm sort of... Your solution becomes stable you will have a nutrient product/ water mix at an EC that creates the correct buffer at your desired pH. Adding nutrient salts will increase the buffering capacity as well as change the pH point that the solution buffers to to a lower pH. obviously you don't want to vburn your crop so there is a limit. Better to dilute the carbonate thats what I'm doing currently 1 part tap to 2 parts ro this is the mix that buffers to pH 5.7 with my tap water and 1.7 ec flora nova 1ml floralisous plus.

Smoking Good Bud & Confusion, its great i love it lol!


See once my EC is at the correct strength my PH stays where i put it, then i know im in the right ballpark, as long as EC is stable too. This is how we pilot our grows, charting & manipulating PH & EC! You got the right buffer smoke a fatty

The only way to actually truely know your ALK is get a analysis off you water board.(ppms)

Or titrate to an 1,10 phenathroline end point.


So Alkalinity & Kh/Dh together make up total hardness(better go & read BT's thread again for the 125th time lol), is that what you mean, lol im stoneed!
Im sure one of you guys will put me straight! N1

Carbonates. and Ca Mg and divalent Fe ions make up the vast majority of total hardness. Alkalinity is a measure of the acid absorbing properties of your solution is related to your hardness but can not nesserily be used interchangably

btw, if i mixed RO with my Tap id reduce my waters PH buffering capacity & would have to adjust more regularly, or do you think i have this wrong? I know RO has little in the way of Buffering due to taking out the carbonates(Ca&Mg) Id only consider doing 50/50 RO/Tap if my base tap reading was silly high(300+ppms or higher could warrent such a move). See above you can change your buffer point by diluting and changing nutrient EC

BT also says Filtering water de-stabilises it, so it aint just as straight forward as that.(you are effectively de-stabilising the waters Alkalinity), this can Fk things up too.

Only if you have poorly buffered nutrients. Flora nova in straight RO with KOH (pH up) will buffer to about 5.9. but BT is right in that the carbonate buffer is not there.

Tired from building hydro systems in the warehouse so if I missed anything I'll try to pick it up tomorrow.

HM

 

[Scrogerman]

Dont listen to me KStampy, like i said fella i need to check it out my self, my memory sucks ass big time bro. Funnily enough ive just started having PH issues myself, weird like i tempted fait! It started diving down, to me thats a bad-bacterial sign(i have full control of EC & only changed out 3 days ago, so i know its bacteria!), i stuck my nose in the Res(Good Tip) & smell nothing but sweet smells(a good sign) but its only just started & it could be likely that Anerobic bacteria are just starting to outcompete the areobic, The Bad guys make the PH dive down, so if its not EC(the usual cause of PH swing down), it'll be anerobic bacteria & a dose of H2o2 is in order. Ill always wait a few days & addback straight water just to make sure its not something else. This happens rarely to me, but it does happen none the less, a few days on the H2o2 & im sorted.
One point id like to make KStamp is H2o2 is harmfull to roots if uesd on a 24/7 basis. try doing what i do(does the same job), 2 days on 2 off or 3 on 2 off etc, btw my H2o2 is 17.5% strength & i use at 0.5 mls per litre(for me Max Res solution strength).
Thanks man Peace!

(btw, 450ppms out the tap & id be worried man) Buy an RO i would in that case! its a Bit way too hard!
Oh & i was talking people with Co2 injection systems for the atmospheric Co2 earlier, but i suppose Polluted area could have an impact too im sure, but its unlikely related to that or Co2 if you dont use the stuff. 350ppms in normal air & canna can use 1500ppms, im gonna have a go with Co2 soon i hope.

 

[Scrogerman]

Only if you have poorly buffered nutrients. Flora nova in straight RO with KOH (pH up) will buffer to about 5.9. but BT is right in that the carbonate buffer is not there.

Tired from building hydro systems in the warehouse so if I missed anything I'll try to pick it up tomorrow.

HM

Hey Bro,
Bigtoke is a Legend in my eyes man. A few of his threads ive saved as permenante reference. Like he said unless you have silly hard or polluted water using filtered water de-stabilises it(its Alkalinity-Why?), we could go on & on about this one but i think ive made my point. I love this subject but am out of my depth when it comes to chemistry, OK at growing plants though.
If my water was over 300ppms out of the Tap i'd consider buying an RO & going 50/50 to balance it out a bit. Its also why we have Hard & SW nute formulations, id go there first tbh! Like you said HighOnMt its buffered correctly. its when you use the wrong formulations that problems can arise, HW & SW nute lines are made for the job & are there for a reason.
Cheers Buddy!

(Like i said Hard water has a better Buffering Cap than Soft because of the KH(Carbonate Hardness), all these things are interelated. Its Carbonates that make up Alkalinity(No Carbonates means what?=RO??), but i still dont get why they are different & have a different ppm value compared to Dh. they're directly releted & make up the Total Hardness!, im sure Spurr will come put me straight!(There all connected im saying & make up the Total hardness or all the Mg & Ca), again why RO has a neutral PH(7), it is base not Alkaline! & yes its very easy to confuse Alkaline & water alkalinty, but RO has No carbonates so its PH is neutral for a reason.
Cheers all & i hope you find BT's thread as usefull as i have.

If you can see where im going wrong guys, please set me straight, id like to get to reading BT's thread 200 times but it'd be better if one of you lot can put me right.

 

[Scrogerman]

Good info, keep it comin!

btw bro, 'Opening a Can a Worms' is a term us Brits use to describe putting oneself in a situation with a thousand different outcomes &or answers that are brought to light or discovered, Further Complicating issues, lol, it wasnt meant as an insult or anything bro, im sure you understood! just thought id say bro!
Best of Luck to ya mate!