Weird pH problem with Nutes (GH and Botanicare)

[MJ-XILE]

Hey IC folks, I am having a pH issue with my nutrients. I was having trouble with GH recently, after about 3 years of successful gardening with the advanced GH line, and was having weird yellowing and drop off issues so I decided to give Botanicare a shot as my buddy uses them and that's all he will sell and recommended at his retail store for his hydro systems.

I am using the schedule he uses, the add-back program which lets you premix your nutes and add-back water and pre-mix each week instead of doing a rez change every week. With this schedule I will be able to do a rez change every 4 weeks in Veg, and every 5 weeks in flower (5 weeks in Bloom schedule, 5 weeks in Ripen schedule)

I flushed my plants good for an hour with cleerex, and then filled each rez (I did not Pre-mix) using the following chart:

I checked my pH after I got back home with my new replacement probe, (I am using the Milwaukee 802 Smart Meter pH/TDS/EC) and it was around 3.7!!!

I called my friend and he said it was most likely my plants leaching and that I should flush over night. I went to go drain and flush this morning, but decided to mix up a 5 gal bucket first and see if it was my nutes and/or water. I mixed up the bloom schedule from above and here's what happened:

Starting water pH: 7.5
Starting water ppm: 010

After Pure Blend Bloom pH: 4.8
After Cal Mag pH: 4.8
After Karma pH: 4.8
After Sweet pH: 4.8
After Hydroplex pH: 3.6
After Aquashield pH: 3.6

Ending pH: 3.6
Ending ppm:1360

Obviously something isn't right here. Hydroplex had a 100x drop in pH, and the Pure Blend brought it down almost 300x. I checked the feeding schedule from Botanicare and they had Hydroplex at 5 ml/Gal and Bloom at 25 ml/Gal as well, so it doesn't seem like it's the feeding schedule. He is usually at 5.9 and between 1200-1500 ppm, and has been working on his add-back formula for years...

What could bve causing this? My water is at 10 ppm's, the highest I have ever seen it is 30 ppm's, and I have great water where I'm at. The pH has ranged anywhere from low 7's to low 8's since I have been here.

Like I said I was having Yellowing/dropping off problems with GH, but my meter was broken and I couldn't take radings prior to switching to Botanicare. Should I mix up a 5 gal of GH and see if the same thing happens?

What could be causing this?

 

[MJ-XILE]

Can anyone help me figure this out? My girls are suffering and I have no idea what I need to do to fix the problem.

I used my GH pH up to bring It back to 5.9, but everyday I check it It has gone down back under 5, and I keep adjusting back up only to find It drop again. I am really stumped as to what could be In my water that is causing so many pH issues, especially when my water is only reading 20 ppm's. I have never had pH Issues in the past and now I am all of a sudden.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, I'm bout to say f it and get a Merlin ro system, but I don't have the space to store water.

 

[!!!]

(edited)

Lack is correct. Post retracted

 

[Lack]

Your post is very long. Consider revising it or at least making the question you're asking bold enough to pick out. Do you have pics of symptoms?

It's not really that long. The feeding chart has tricked you into thinking it's too much to read. It's not. Some things involved with growing require lots of explanation and describing in order to accurately get across what is going on.There are a lot of little things to take into account when dealing with stuff like this, it can be hard to keep short for the people who don't have an attention span more than a few seconds. Too many people dont read these days, so quick to say TLDR... If you cant read something as short as his original post, that's pretty bad.

MJ, you have really good water quality where you are, I'm jealous. Going by what you said in your post, that PBP is sure dropping that ph down a lot. Not sure what to say, I'd find different nutes as that combination you are using is really working on the ph. FWIW, I grew wonderfully tasty plants for years with simple GH floranova bloom, floralicious plus and a little molasses. Ph was always steady and plants were happy. Good luck with the ph problem.

 

[ZZTops]

looks like your Nuteing them to Death IMHO...

PB ProGrow & ProBloom are stand alone Nutes and work very well that way...

My understanding is Sweet and Hydroplex are used in Bloom only and ether one or the other but not both...

I know the PBPG label reads 30ml per gal in full veg but I back that off to 15ml per gal with great results...

In Bloom I'm using 15ml PBPB and 1ml Hydroplex per gal, also with great results...

My tap water is 7ph and after adding the above it hits 6ph everytime and I add nutes to the res as the PH raises over time, replacing the Nutes the Plant is taking up...

Sometimes I think Less is More...

I love Botanicare PB but remember there in the business of selling Nutes...

 

[humble1]

You didn't mention what medium you're in or whether these readings started before or after you got the replacement probe. Check your juice with a buddy's meter. You might be surprised.

 

[MJ-XILE]

Thanks for the replies. Basically I was having all of my fan leaves yellowing and dropping the last couple months while using GH's advanced schedule, and I lost a couple plants to It. I didn't have a pH meter at the time but I suspected it was low pH. I switched notes to see of that would fix the problem, but botanicare's mix Is coming in at 3.6 after mixing it. I used a bunch of pH up to bring It up to 5.8 but every time I check It is back under 5 and I have to readjust.

Is there something in my water (even though it's 10-20 ppm) that could be effecting the pH?

If I got a Tall Boy (non Ro, sediment and charcoal filter for chlorine, can keep up with hose water pressure and I wouldn't need water storage) will it filter chloaramine as well?

Is It normal for me to have to use pH up everyday, and what could be causing the pH to keep dropping?

-----

I was using hydroton and I just switched to a lava rock (Wolf Pack Soils out of Oregon). It is freakin sweet, better than Hygromite which was my favorite media before I found the lava rock. I was having issues before I got the rock though so that isn't the cause. I should also specify that I am in an Aero/DWC hybrid system, and am using air stones as well.

I was afraid I was over feeding as well so I cut back from using 25 gal's to 15 gal's worth of nutes, hence the 15 gal conversion on the chart above. The systems I am having the most trouble are almost 30 Gal's, so I am at half the nutrient strength already.

Thanks for the help.

 

[ugmjfarmer]

Toss out that chart, and pick up the botanicare charts. I'm seeing irregularities, like: In veg, you are running Hydroplex, a bloom PK booster? Personally I have never seen reason to run more than 20ml/gal of PBPG, LK on the other hand I always run at 10ml/gal, not 7.5.

I would add your clear additives first, like calmag, sweet and aquashield then measure your ph/tds. Then add 15ml grow and test PH and PPM.

Also they have wonderful technical support, call the number on the bottles. Have you checked into other issued that could be causing this like PVC tubing gas off?

http://botanicare.net/sites/default/files/BotanicareFeedSheet_1.pdf

Botanicare is calling for this for a full strength veg in hydro gardens:

PBP Grow 15ml/gal
Calmag+ 5-7ml/gal (looking more like 7 w/ your water)
Karma 10m/gal
Aquashield 10-15ml/gal
Sweet 0ml <--- NONE until bloom

Read the chart. Its certainly designed for these plants.

 

[MJ-XILE]

Toss out that chart, and pick up the botanicare charts. I'm seeing irregularities, like: In veg, you are running Hydroplex, a bloom PK booster? Personally I have never seen reason to run more than 20ml/gal of PBPG, LK on the other hand I always run at 10ml/gal, not 7.5.

I would add your clear additives first, like calmag, sweet and aquashield then measure your ph/tds. Then add 15ml grow and test PH and PPM.

Also they have wonderful technical support, call the number on the bottles. Have you checked into other issued that could be causing this like PVC tubing gas off?

http://botanicare.net/sites/default/files/BotanicareFeedSheet_1.pdf

Botanicare is calling for this for a full strength veg in hydro gardens:

PBP Grow 15ml/gal
Calmag+ 5-7ml/gal (looking more like 7 w/ your water)
Karma 10m/gal
Aquashield 10-15ml/gal
Sweet 0ml <--- NONE until bloom

Read the chart. Its certainly designed for these plants.

The thing is Is that it's not just the PBP Grow that I'm having trouble with, it's the Bloom and soil as well, which is pretty much the same feeding schedule as Botanicare's.

Why would the pH drop from 7.5 (starting water) to 4.6, nearly a 300x drop after adding PBP?

On my Veg Rez alone I have used aomost a quart of pH Up and It's not brought it within the range it needs to be...

And why am I having the same pH problems with both GH and Botanicare after multiple successful years with no pH problems? Shit Is just not right and not adding up...

Here are some pics of my suffering girls:

 

[ZZTops]

This might help...

http://boards.cannabis.com/hydroponics/192189-why-ph-fluctuates.html

 

[krunchbubble]

looks like your Nuteing them to Death IMHO...

Sometimes I think Less is More...

exactly! you are using way to many nutrients, additives and vitamins, imvho.....

also using cal mag all through out flowering will lock out your phosphorus, most people dont use it or very seldom in flowering....

go with a base nutrient, such as pure blend pro and maybe the sweet and you will be solid.....

also, when i use pbp, i use 1/2 strength.......

 

[Weird]

pure blend is not very hot, if its dropping your ph that far down your using too much.

also I am of the opinion that cal mag does not need to be added regularly, but if you do add it, add it first

but i see some problems with your ppm rates

your base should never (my opinion once again) be above 800 and boosters above 400 for 1200 max in water unless you have a particular strain that feeds that hard and even that is a real heavy mix

i would start by adding cal-mag first, then add everything but bloom and hydroplex

now add them enough bloom to drop it to 6.2-6.0 then add your bloom boost (hydroplex) to get to 5.7, then do a ppm measurement

you might consider a better carbo source for the aquashield but dont run it that hot low your ppm with the method suggested go full blast with aquashield and you should see them turn around.

after they come back from the burn you can work your way up the ppm ladder if they are boarding on underfed

 

[Lack]

Same problem...

Same problem...

Since my switch to RO, I'm having issues just like this. I'm using Advanced nutrients 3part GMB and I add less than their minimal feeding suggestion and the ph has already dropped from 6.2 down to 5.2, thats just the base fert at 370ppm, crazy! I checked the res today and the ph is back up to 6.2, so that tells me the plants are taking up nutrients as they should and the ph is rising like normal. I'm still concerned however, I cant add any molasses or any other additives without bringing the ph down to 4 or lower. Even if the res ph will rise back up a bit when the plants start taking up the nutes, I cant bring myself to give my plants a feeding with such a low ph. I never see anybody talking about using ph up all the time, so this has me concerned as well. Like, wtf. Guess I should have just stuck with GH's 3part and not bothered with AN's since it's obviously doing something to the ph that GH's doesn't do. I emailed AN, so hopefully I'll hear back soon. They took several days to reply to my last question.

Try contacting Botanicare MJ, and tell em about the huge ph drop after mixing in their nutes. For now I'm laying off all additives and just feeding the base until I can figure out what's happening with the ph drop after adding the nutes. Dont want to end up losing the harvest. PH is a bitch aye?... I picked a swell time to switch up my entire nute schedule lol. My ladies are mid flower.

Good luck, I'll let ya know if I find out anything worth speaking up about.

 

[MJ-XILE]

This might help...

http://boards.cannabis.com/hydroponics/192189-why-ph-fluctuates.html

Great article, it reiterated what I already practiced before, in not stressing pH and letting the plants deal with the pH themselves, but the pictures from above are a result of that approach and now I feel like I need to control my pH better.

I have already lost 3 flowering plants to this which is a huge loss considering how long I veg them out for my collumns.

I agree that I was using too much, but I cut my strengths in half with GH and still was having the same issues. I also started Botanicare's out at half strength and even with that the pH was 3.6. My mixes ppm is 750-900

I bought a Hydro-Logic Big Boy carbon/sediment filter and the UV Sterilizer for It today and I am hoping that takes out whatever could be causing such a huge drop. My buddy said that my water may be too clean and might not have enough Calcium or Magnesium, doesn't make sense to me though. His mix, and two friens of his that use the same mix are between 5.8-6.2 with no adjustment needed, and are at double the strength as me.

I'm also going to call Botanicare and see what they suggest. I really want to give Botanicare a chance, but if I can't get this figured out I'm going back to GH where the problem started. So weird...

I also might try the Lucas formula and see what happens from there. I like having an actual feeding schedule though so I'm not so sure about it honestly, it seems weird having the same schedule all throughout the plants growth cycle when they require different nutrients at different times.

 

[ZZTops]

You need to reread the article, he's talk'n if your shooting for 6.0 and your at 5.8 or 6.2 do not sweat it.

You can throw all the Nutes under the Sun at them and it aint going to change. Your plants are not taking up + ions and releasing - ions to balance the PH and your plants might be giving off + ions because of the over feeding for such a long time...

I feel for ya and those plants are in bad condition, just Heart breaking...!

At this point I would recharge the Res with just 6.0 Phed water and let it run for a few days, if your PH keeps dropping do a half recharge with 6.0 PHed water till the system is balanced...

In the mean time I would start removing the dead and yellowing leafs off the plant a little at a time, not all a once...

Since your in Flower ( the last stage of its life ) I would not expect much of a recovery as far as leaf growth but you might be able to save the remaining buds...

Good Luck and keep us posted...

 

[Lack]

MJ - As an experiment, maybe get a few different brands of RO and mix up your nutrients in them separately and take ph readings, that way you'll be able to rule out your water source as the problem. I did just that last night and my nutrients drop the ph just as radically as yours do in all the RO water I bought... I honestly don't see how people are growing weed the way they say they are. Some claim they don't need any ph up or down, just add nutrients to the water and that's it, the ph comes out perfect every time... Wish it would work out like that for me. I don't think it's the PBP nutrients you're using as mine do the same thing. I also don't think it's your water since I tried several kinds of RO all with the same result. I too am considering going to GH's 3part and trying that for awhile. Maybe it wont lower the ph as much as what I'm using now. I kind of doubt it though. I mixed floranova with my RO water and it too lowered the ph into the dangerzone by adding a lot less than I normally do, so again I don't think it's your nutrients that are the problem because I've tried two different kinds, both with the same result.

I bought a new RO unit lastnight so I'll now have my own source of RO, so I'll be installin that today, I'm determined to use RO and nutrients, this ph dropping mess is too frustrating. Probably pick up the GH 3part as well. If when mixing the lucas forumla with the GH nutes like thousands of others do, the ph still drops into the dangerzone, I'll be officially at the end of my rope with this whole thing. I just want to grow bud like thousands of other people who use RO and nutrients and no ph up or down.

We're kinda in the same boat man, really interested to see how it turns out for both of us. My plants aren't in as bad a shape as yours, all I have is a little tip burn, but I really feel for ya. Hope your next grow is much more easy goin and successful bro. Take care and try not to stress too much about em, I'm sure you'll at least get a bit of bud off em. This will make you a stronger grower though. GL

 

[MJ-XILE]

You need to reread the article, he's talk'n if your shooting for 6.0 and your at 5.8 or 6.2 do not sweat it.

You can throw all the Nutes under the Sun at them and it aint going to change. Your plants are not taking up + ions and releasing - ions to balance the PH and your plants might be giving off + ions because of the over feeding for such a long time...

I feel for ya and those plants are in bad condition, just Heart breaking...!

At this point I would recharge the Res with just 6.0 Phed water and let it run for a few days, if your PH keeps dropping do a half recharge with 6.0 PHed water till the system is balanced...

In the mean time I would start removing the dead and yellowing leafs off the plant a little at a time, not all a once...

Since your in Flower ( the last stage of its life ) I would not expect much of a recovery as far as leaf growth but you might be able to save the remaining buds...

Good Luck and keep us posted...

Thanks, I did read that as well, but I ruled out my plants as the source of the problem when I mixed up the 5 gal test buckets and the pH came out low then as well. It's something between the nutes and the water.

Though I've lost a couple girls to this, the other ones are still producing, although at only half they would be normally. I'm getting about 4 per, when I usually average 8, but with my 3k collumns I should be up closer to a lb per, obviously not there yet though.

@Lack I'm glad to hear that yours aren't as bad as mine, as I said above mine are still producing so I'm hoping the same for you.

I feel like It is something in my water reacting negatively with the nutes honestly. And to start having these problems after never needing adjustment is just weird. No change in nutes/schedule before, my flowering girls just started looking like CRAP like the pictures above. The interesting thing Is that my Veg plants looked great and just recently after I switched to PBP started showing sign of low ph as well, so that Is another thing that has me stumped. They looked great all through veg and then two to four weeks in started yellowing and dropping like above.

I have complete confidence I will figure this out, and luckily I do look at it as another challenge on my way to becoming a better grower. The hard thing is is that I'm not sure what's wrong and how to fix ot, where as I had the worst mite Infestation you would see In your life and I dealt with It using a powered atomizer while alternating Avid+Azamax and Floramite+azamax. I've also dealt with PM which I took care of with a sulfur burner and procure (fungicide) as well as Bud Mold/Botritus so I have gotten through several set backs before. I will figure this out...

Here is a link to my original thread on this problem, it might shed some more light as to what's going on.

Going down to check pH now, hopefully its still above 5.5 after adjusting yesterday.

Thanks for all the help and good thoughts, seriously.

 

[MJ-XILE]

K so I checked the pH of the systems I adjusted to 6.1 yesterday and they were at 5.6-5.9 so I didn't adjust them any further. I got some more ph up and did all of my other Rez's up to 6.1 as well so I'm hoping everything will be stable now. I'll let everyone know how it goes, thanks again for all of the help. I guess I just needed to be a little more patient, I'm not used to having to adjust the pH but it's something I have to deal with now. Thanks again.

 

[Lack]

nm

 

[MJ-XILE]

Well this is too weird man, same here about the veg plants. All my mothers and clones have made it just fine, not a single burned leaf, leaf-tip or anything, well there was that one leaf, but other than that, perfect. It was the flowering plants that started giving me trouble out of nowhere. I have it all figured out now though, I had tunnel vision so to speak after using floranova for so long, I relied too much on it.

Key for me and my RO PH problem was I needed to add Cal/Mg to my nutrients... Something about RO losing it's charge or whatever, cant remember exactly what he said now. Doh lol, as I said... Lazy floranova/tap water user here. So now with the RO water, my new 3part nutrients, a tsp of calmag and literally three drops of ph up and I'm stabilized at 5.8 and the res naturally climbs a little into perfect range! So happy again, now I can relax and actually get stoned. I was stressin bout my ladies, got some sativas goin with a long time to go still.

Just wanted to report back with my findings. So glad your ph is stabilized, now your plants can recover. Hope it's smooth sailin from here on for both of us...

Wow I think we might have figured this thing out... I'm going to mix up a bucket doing what others suggested and adding the cal-mag and clear nutes first and seeing what happens. I'll post back if that takes care of my problem as well.