Is it possible that reality is not what you think?...yes?/no?...lol

[statusquo]

statusquo...thanks for that link. I read that information, but it is
not easy to grasp for me. To be honest, in the last year or so,
I have come to the conclusion to become conscious of what is/truth
I have to unlearn and become completely aware of the fact that
I don't really know anything as it is, that I only believe/assume things
and this is what gets in the way of me become completely conscious
of what is. This is why I have been going the other way, and slowly
letting go off all the beleifs/assumptions that I've attached my "self"
to over the years, and slowly work my way toward what is/truth.

We'll see how it goes, because learning knowledge hasn't really helped,
and I fugured I have nothing to lose going the other way, since I'm
going to die one day anyway

...getting a glimpse of the truth of while I'm alive seems like a good
thing to shoot for, because when I die, obviously I don't know what
is on the other side, and I might as well attempt to see it for myself
while I'm alive.

Thanks for your input in this thread, you have definitely contributed
many gold nuggets of information that I was never aware of.

So thanks, and see you around

southflorida

No worries man, great thread and I'm just glad I could contribute. At the end of the day if I stimulate even one person or persuade one person to challenge their views I am happy. Lot's of good conversation.

I really feel where you are coming from with the unlearning to try and attain a more 'pure' state of consciousness. Kind of like a Buddhist/Hindu approach. I believe it is a better way to live however, being in western society, isn't practical =/ (I hate pragmatism but a man's gotta live and support himself/family)

 

[ROJO145]

First.....you must realize that there is no spoon!!

 

[southflorida]

No worries man, great thread and I'm just glad I could contribute. At the end of the day if I stimulate even one person or persuade one person to challenge their views I am happy. Lot's of good conversation.

I really feel where you are coming from with the unlearning to try and attain a more 'pure' state of consciousness. Kind of like a Buddhist/Hindu approach. I believe it is a better way to live however, being in western society, isn't practical =/ (I hate pragmatism but a man's gotta live and support himself/family)

...it is very possible to do this while living in a western society.

...the point is to slowly let go off everything that is false in you,
and to live as a more honest-conceptual-self, and not so much as
a false-self that has been deeply programmed by society/culture.

...this basically means to contemplate and uncover false beliefs
and false assumptions that are not rooted in objective reality, since
this is all we have to work with, at least when it comes to living
as human beings in a western society

...there are many things we believe/assume that create some seriously
f*cked up perceptions of the objective reality...which is basically
what is there. Not taking into account its true nature (nothing/infinity)
this objective reality is all we have as human beings.

...we can directly experience consciousness/being, but obviously
to live in this state all the time would be a problem for anyone that
has to work on a relationship, or support a family.

...so, what I'm talking about is the transition from our false-self, which
is the programmed part of us, and which I explain in the first quote
of the first post of this thread...to the honest-conceptual-self,
where we have become aware of our programming and can eliminate
the beliefs/assumptions that are not rooted in objective reality and
are based only on false concepts/beliefs/assumptions.

...this is a major step, and not something that is easy, because the
"self" is a survival mechanism, and whatever this "self" is attached to,
it protects and defends with all of its resources.

...and obviously this false-self is very, very, very powerful, since
it has been running our life since the beginning, and our only chance
for freedom is to slowly let go of these attachments/identification
with our "desire" for the truth, or HONESTY.

...If we are completely honest and truthful with ourselves and others,
then this is possible. But, obviously this is a very hard thing
to do, because so much in our world is based on manipulation and
being dishonest, because this is the only way our false-self can
survive...and keep doing it's thing...which is continuing to survive/persist.

...the problem with this is that this "false-self" will fail either way,
simply because at some moment, and no one knows when, we will
die a physical death, and this is something the false-self tries to
ignore as much as it possibly can.

...so, in the end, if it will fail anyway, and if this is brought into
awareness, the false-self can be turned into a honest-conceptual-self,
because it makes more sense to move toward becoming what we
truly are (consciousness/being) than trying to remain what we aren't.

...and once the false-self becomes aware of this it agrees to go on
this journey. Why? Because our genuine self, the one we were
born with...is this consciousness/being...and since it already is
itself anyway...letting go of all false attachments/identifications
only moves us toward the realization and direct experience of our
true nature and who/what we are at our "core."

...at least that is my perspective on this topic of awakening/transformation
from our false-self into an honest-conceptual-self, and eventually into
absolute being/consciousness. But this last part is almost impossible for
the majority of people that have any kind of relationship, because even
now while I'm in transition from false-self to an honest-conceptual-self,
the majority of people think that I am completely crazy.

...I imagine what it would be like if I just came out and told them that
I am nothing/infinity that is using distinctions (also nothing/infinity) to
create this objective reality, just so I could observe it, since I can't
observe myself any other way...lol

...and I'm talking about consciousness/being as nothing/infinity...of course.

...this is why in the furture I'm going to by a fascenda in Spain, and live there
by myself, with maybe a few dogs.

 

[HempKat]

I think this is what I try to get at when I say we don't have free will and are at the whim of our brain. Our brains are the result of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution within the primate species whereas ego consciousness is a relatively new product of evolution. Your brain controls everything, including the perception of reality and the perception of free will (ego). A good example of this is in emergency situations where your brain dictates and immediate response that is so important the response comes before the message is sent to your ego. Reworded in the terms of a person that believes in free will - the brain acts before you even get a chance to think about acting. One might say this is "reflex" but there is no way reflex applies to all emergency situations, there are too wide a diversity of potential dangers to have the reflexes/appropriate responses hardwired into our genes.

I don't get this point of trying to make it sound like you can do anything but live in the brain. The brain is integral to anything the body will do. You can't live without it. It would be like trying to log onto the internet with a computer that didn't have a CPU. OF course that computer wouldn't do anything without a CPU just like a human body wouldm't do anything without a brain. How are you to make the decision to not use the brain (if that were possible) when you need the brain to make that decision? How do you start using it again without the brain monitoring things so it can know when you want to start using it again?

I think what's happening here though is brain is being confused with ego or an aspect of the brain. Which would be like talking about a math co-processor (now integrated into CPU's) as if it were the CPU rather then a part of it.

As for the question of reflexes, if you act without making a decision it's reflex, but it's not as if there are thousands of seperate reflexes there's really just a few like fight or flight but those two aren't the specific reflex actions but rather a way to catagorize them. So yes even though there are many uniquely different emergency situations you can end up in your reflex response to them will be a variation of fight or flight.

Another interesting thing to consider about the brain is all the things it does without thought, like breathing, keeping the heart beating, sending commands to muscles after you've percieved a situation and decided how to act, just to name a few.

 

[HempKat]

...getting a glimpse of the truth of while I'm alive seems like a good
thing to shoot for, because when I die, obviously I don't know what
is on the other side, and I might as well attempt to see it for myself
while I'm alive.

You're still doing it though, even here you aren't living in just the present because you're making assumptions about the afterlife. Nobody really knows what that's like. Sure you got stories of what people experienced in their minds when they were near death or clinically dead but for all anyone knows that's just their imagination. What if the reality is that once you die that's it? No heaven, no hell, no afterlife, you just cease to be period. If that were/is the case then there is nothing on the otherside because there is no other side. Which if that's true then you'll be spending the rest of your life, fighting the naturally workings of your brain, all in the name of glimpsing something that isn't there to glimpse.

Also I don't think it's fair to say that the future is a creation of the mind the future is what it is. We can make preditions about the future based on observations from the past but those predictions may or may not be true. Just because you imagine a future doesn't mean it will happen but the longer your past becomes, the more you have to draw from and the more likely your predictions will be accurate.

The bottomline is there is no great secret that lies just beyond our understanding. Nothing that if we can just learn to go against how our mind works will suddenly become apparent to us. No way to transcend what it is to be human. All there is are things we have an imperfect understanding of like the origin of all things.

 

[Ben Tokin]

Live in the here and now. Plan for the events you are certain will happen. Take time to avoid the trivial matters. Express your appreciation and deal with your demons.

Avoid all burdens of this life. Hate, pride, greed, anger and ignorance.

Fill your life with love, understanding, patience, meditation and a genuine desire to learn all that will help you and others. Accept and understand those things you cannot control and change those things that will make life better.

Avoid believing that you are special without the love and acceptance of others. The souls that we find most difficult are the ones we must show more love and kindness though our words and actions...without betraying any of our convictions.

Never allow the unjust words and actions of others lead you into darkness. Stay alert to avoid the betrayal of desire.

Enjoy life and all it has to offer. Use pause and reason.

Time never ends. When physical life expires, move on.

 

[draco]

I don't get this point of trying to make it sound like you can do anything but live in the brain. The brain is integral to anything the body will do. You can't live without it. It would be like trying to log onto the internet with a computer that didn't have a CPU. OF course that computer wouldn't do anything without a CPU just like a human body wouldm't do anything without a brain. How are you to make the decision to not use the brain (if that were possible) when you need the brain to make that decision? How do you start using it again without the brain monitoring things so it can know when you want to start using it again?

certainly there are autonomic functions of the brain. but i think the brain has a relationship with the owner quite unlike that of a computer/operator.... reams of books try to differentiate a soul/mind/brain/subconscious/super consciousness, etc... but to me, i own the damn thing and want to control it. otherwise it controls me.

 

[statusquo]

Our brains are analog computers. Sensory input data comes in through various sense receptors and then this information is relayed to the brain via neurons as an electrical signal. Once the electrical signal is received, the brain processes this information like a CPU. Once it has processed the information - looking to past experience, genes and potential future consequences - it out puts a response (behavior). There is no magic, the inputs/outputs are clearly traceable and subject to the laws of nature which we as agents have no control over. It's all just neurons and neurotransmitters and tiny electrical impulses. Any concept you might have of free will or having a process in the decision making process is an illusion. Ego/awareness is like the tip of the iceberg. You might contemplate what you are going to do (you being the physiological part of your brain responsible for tricking you into thinking you are an 'agent' with free will; in other words the physiological part responsible for the ego) but realistically it's just the brain processing information and outputting a response based on the laws of nature. There is no room for free will/agency if we accept laws of physics, chemistry and biology IMO. Once we understand the brain/genes fully, we will be able to predict behavior from humans.

 

[cfo]

It's all one big fuckin' mystery! Who the hell really knows? I believe what we see is real but there's a lot of shit that exists that we can't see with our eyeballs. But, what the hell do I know? I'm just a bag of water and lightin' roamin' around this orb that's flying across the universe.

 

[southflorida]

You're still doing it though, even here you aren't living in just the present because you're making assumptions about the afterlife. Nobody really knows what that's like. Sure you got stories of what people experienced in their minds when they were near death or clinically dead but for all anyone knows that's just their imagination. What if the reality is that once you die that's it? No heaven, no hell, no afterlife, you just cease to be period. If that were/is the case then there is nothing on the otherside because there is no other side. Which if that's true then you'll be spending the rest of your life, fighting the naturally workings of your brain, all in the name of glimpsing something that isn't there to glimpse.

The only thing that I am quite sure of, is that I will eventually die
at some point. What happens after, I don't know and can't know.
From my perspective, after we die a physical death, we die a physical
death, and there is "nothing" left to go anywhere or reincarnate.

This is because I believe that the thing we think of as the "self" is
what you reffered to in a previous post, is the ego. Attachments
and identifications with certain concepts about who we are.

This part, obviously dies with the brain. As far as what people call
spirit, this part already is, it is the consciousness/being that we are,
and not what we become. So when we die a physical death, being,
consciousness, spirit, or whatever one calls the "one life energy"
that keeps everything turning (some like to call it nature), remains,
because it already "is" and is not itself a part of the birth/death cycle.

Also I don't think it's fair to say that the future is a creation of the mind the future is what it is. We can make predictions about the future based on observations from the past but those predictions may or may not be true. Just because you imagine a future doesn't mean it will happen but the longer your past becomes, the more you have to draw from and the more likely your predictions will be accurate.

True. The future is what it is, just like the present, and just like
the past was at one moment.

The bottomline is there is no great secret that lies just beyond our understanding. Nothing that if we can just learn to go against how our mind works will suddenly become apparent to us. No way to transcend what it is to be human. All there is are things we have an imperfect understanding of like the origin of all things.

...to this, I would honestly have to say that it is not something we
can actually "know." Because knowing is done with our mind, and if
it is a temporary tool, that lives inside of us until we die, and lives
only inside its own understanding, then how can we know something
with this limited tool?

...my perspective is that we can "directly experience" something else,
but we can't perceive this part or really describe it, because it lies
outside of the box, and to go there, we have to use a source that
is not in the box itself. Doesn't this make sense?

...this is why from my perspective, we can directly experience being,
consciousness, spirit, etc...with this element itself. Since we are
this thing ourselves (IMO) we can directly experience this part, but
can't put into words our experiences, because this experience lies
outside of the box (self-mind).

 

[HempKat]

certainly there are autonomic functions of the brain. but i think the brain has a relationship with the owner quite unlike that of a computer/operator.... reams of books try to differentiate a soul/mind/brain/subconscious/super consciousness, etc... but to me, i own the damn thing and want to control it. otherwise it controls me.

Well I wouldn't try to compare the brain/human to a computer/operator nor is that what I did. I merely made the analogy of a brain being like a cpu is to the whole computer, You can have all the memory, drive space, bells and whistles, etc but without a cpu the computer is not going to function. Just as a person can not function without a brain.

You talk of trying to control the brain like it's sperate from you when it is not, it is a part of who you are and without it you wouldn't be you you would be a pile of lifeless flesh and bone So to talk of it as something seperate from yourself that can be controlled is silly. How can you control your brain when it's your brain that would have to exert that control since the desire to control is an impulse that comes from your brain?

 

[HempKat]

Our brains are analog computers. Sensory input data comes in through various sense receptors and then this information is relayed to the brain via neurons as an electrical signal. Once the electrical signal is received, the brain processes this information like a CPU. Once it has processed the information - looking to past experience, genes and potential future consequences - it out puts a response (behavior). There is no magic, the inputs/outputs are clearly traceable and subject to the laws of nature which we as agents have no control over. It's all just neurons and neurotransmitters and tiny electrical impulses. Any concept you might have of free will or having a process in the decision making process is an illusion. Ego/awareness is like the tip of the iceberg. You might contemplate what you are going to do (you being the physiological part of your brain responsible for tricking you into thinking you are an 'agent' with free will; in other words the physiological part responsible for the ego) but realistically it's just the brain processing information and outputting a response based on the laws of nature. There is no room for free will/agency if we accept laws of physics, chemistry and biology IMO. Once we understand the brain/genes fully, we will be able to predict behavior from humans.

Free will is just a concept born of perception, we see multiple options and we make a choice based on whatever results we are looking for. The longer you live the freer your will becomes because you'll have more experiences to draw from when determining your options. It is even possible to exert some free will over some reflex but it takes alot of conditioning to train the mind to overcome the normal reflex action. Like a timid person who all his life uses the flight response but then gets tired of that, takes martial arts and learns to overcome the flight response and turn it into a fight response.

Now it is true on a different level that there is no true free will because there are so many external variables to which we have absolutely no control or very little control but that's different. The only way I can see your view of free will not existing though is if you believe we are all created by some god or something that has programed all our responses such that life will always go a particular way because it has been preordained. As if we were all just some sort of wind up toys put into motion for god's amusement. Given things I've seen you say though I don't get the impression you believe in a god.

 

[HempKat]

The only thing that I am quite sure of, is that I will eventually die
at some point. What happens after, I don't know and can't know.
From my perspective, after we die a physical death, we die a physical
death, and there is "nothing" left to go anywhere or reincarnate.

This is because I believe that the thing we think of as the "self" is
what you reffered to in a previous post, is the ego. Attachments
and identifications with certain concepts about who we are.

This part, obviously dies with the brain. As far as what people call
spirit, this part already is, it is the consciousness/being that we are,
and not what we become. So when we die a physical death, being,
consciousness, spirit, or whatever one calls the "one life energy"
that keeps everything turning (some like to call it nature), remains,
because it already "is" and is not itself a part of the birth/death cycle.



True. The future is what it is, just like the present, and just like
the past was at one moment.



...to this, I would honestly have to say that it is not something we
can actually "know." Because knowing is done with our mind, and if
it is a temporary tool, that lives inside of us until we die, and lives
only inside its own understanding, then how can we know something
with this limited tool?

...my perspective is that we can "directly experience" something else,
but we can't perceive this part or really describe it, because it lies
outside of the box, and to go there, we have to use a source that
is not in the box itself. Doesn't this make sense?

...this is why from my perspective, we can directly experience being,
consciousness, spirit, etc...with this element itself. Since we are
this thing ourselves (IMO) we can directly experience this part, but
can't put into words our experiences, because this experience lies
outside of the box (self-mind).

Knowing, believing, percieving it's all done with the mind. Mind, spirit, self, these are all just names for the same thing, you. If you can't actually know anything with your mind then everything your saying here about what you believe, what you think, etc can't be because you've already decide the mind can't do that. You don't see it because you want to believe you've stumbled onto some secret that somehow sets you apart and enlightens you above others. You haven't. What you've done is the same thing that many of us have done which is to have a thought while in an altered state that seems profound to you in some way. You have two choices, one is to accept it as what it is, a fanciful thought born of an altered state of perception or you can continue to pursue it which will ultimately lead you to want to try and repeat the state in which you first had this thought/perception so as to maybe explore it/understand it better.

I went thru something similar, I used to do alot of PCP and I used to believe that when high on the stuff I could speak directly with God and he with me. I felt he was on the verge of revealling some great secret to me that would transform me and the world some how and if I could just smoke a little more, just get a little bit higher it would be revealled to me. Eventually though I came to realize I was just mind fucking myself and if I continued to try to obtain this revelation I'd end up killing myself flipping out on PCP.

 

[southflorida]

Our brains are analog computers. Sensory input data comes in through various sense receptors and then this information is relayed to the brain via neurons as an electrical signal. Once the electrical signal is received, the brain processes this information like a CPU. Once it has processed the information - looking to past experience, genes and potential future consequences - it out puts a response (behavior). There is no magic, the inputs/outputs are clearly traceable and subject to the laws of nature which we as agents have no control over. It's all just neurons and neurotransmitters and tiny electrical impulses. Any concept you might have of free will or having a process in the decision making process is an illusion. Ego/awareness is like the tip of the iceberg. You might contemplate what you are going to do (you being the physiological part of your brain responsible for tricking you into thinking you are an 'agent' with free will; in other words the physiological part responsible for the ego) but realistically it's just the brain processing information and outputting a response based on the laws of nature. There is no room for free will/agency if we accept laws of physics, chemistry and biology IMO. Once we understand the brain/genes fully, we will be able to predict behavior from humans.

...this points at what I said in another thread I started here on
Icmag where I wrote that the Universe is one nondual experience,
and everything simply "happens." The interpretation what we as
humans have of us having free will is just that...and interpretation.

...we are an element/component of the universe that is DISTINCT
but NOT separate, and because of this we are simply experiencing
this "thing" in a moment...and even though we are experiencing this
as distinct elements...we are still experiencing it as "ONE."

...obviously the brain, mind, self doesn't like the objective reality
and is always "adding" it's own interpretation on top of this
experience. But it is not the true nature of this "one experience"
it is ONLY an add-on!

 

[southflorida]

Knowing, believing, percieving it's all done with the mind. Mind, spirit, self, these are all just names for the same thing, you. If you can't actually know anything with your mind then everything your saying here about what you believe, what you think, etc can't be because you've already decide the mind can't do that. You don't see it because you want to believe you've stumbled onto some secret that somehow sets you apart and enlightens you above others. You haven't. What you've done is the same thing that many of us have done which is to have a thought while in an altered state that seems profound to you in some way. You have two choices, one is to accept it as what it is, a fanciful thought born of an altered state of perception or you can continue to pursue it which will ultimately lead you to want to try and repeat the state in which you first had this thought/perception so as to maybe explore it/understand it better.

I went thru something similar, I used to do alot of PCP and I used to believe that when high on the stuff I could speak directly with God and he with me. I felt he was on the verge of revealling some great secret to me that would transform me and the world some how and if I could just smoke a little more, just get a little bit higher it would be revealled to me. Eventually though I came to realize I was just mind fucking myself and if I continued to try to obtain this revelation I'd end up killing myself flipping out on PCP.

...interesting about your experience with PCP. By the way, the
realizations that I've had, the majority of them happened while
I was completely straight and clear-minded.

...and yes, I agree that what we call our "self" is the mind, and
all the concepts are produced by our thinking and using this mind.

...but, what I am trying to explain in my writing, and only pointing
to it using words, is what is there before mind, the place or
moment where all this objective reality that we see with our
senses is rooted.

...This is why I call it nothing/infinity, because it is in the domain
of the unbelievable, and cannot and should not be "believed" by
the mind, but can only be directly experienced.

...I wish it was something that I could explain, and show you, like
a picture of a plant, but it's not. It is not objective reality, it is the
foundation of this objective reality, and is what makes it possible
for the objective reality to be there.

...and as I wrote in a previous post, DISTINCTION is an element
or component of this "thing" which is being/consciousness, and
it uses distinction in order to create distinction-objects, and these
we can perceive, because they create our objective reality, and
also our subjective reality (interpretations, meanings of the objective
reality).

...this part can be observed, because the only reason you perceive
what you perceive is because it is DIFFERENT from something else.

...anything that is NOT DISTINCT from nothing else...simply does
not exist in objective reality...and can't exist in it.

...no distinction is being/consciousness itself...by the way.

...it is "one" nondual present moment experience.

 

[southflorida]

It's all one big fuckin' mystery! Who the hell really knows? I believe what we see is real but there's a lot of shit that exists that we can't see with our eyeballs. But, what the hell do I know? I'm just a bag of water and lightin' roamin' around this orb that's flying across the universe.

very good post...and very close to my perspective of it all.

 

[HempKat]

...interesting about your experience with PCP. By the way, the
realizations that I've had, the majority of them happened while
I was completely straight and clear-minded.

...and yes, I agree that what we call our "self" is the mind, and
all the concepts are produced by our thinking and using this mind.

...but, what I am trying to explain in my writing, and only pointing
to it using words, is what is there before mind, the place or
moment where all this objective reality that we see with our
senses is rooted.

...This is why I call it nothing/infinity, because it is in the domain
of the unbelievable, and cannot and should not be "believed" by
the mind, but can only be directly experienced.

...I wish it was something that I could explain, and show you, like
a picture of a plant, but it's not. It is not objective reality, it is the
foundation of this objective reality, and is what makes it possible
for the objective reality to be there.

...and as I wrote in a previous post, DISTINCTION is an element
or component of this "thing" which is being/consciousness, and
it uses distinction in order to create distinction-objects, and these
we can perceive, because they create our objective reality, and
also our subjective reality (interpretations, meanings of the objective
reality).

...this part can be observed, because the only reason you perceive
what you perceive is because it is DIFFERENT from something else.

...anything that is NOT DISTINCT from nothing else...simply does
not exist in objective reality...and can't exist in it.

...no distinction is being/consciousness itself...by the way.

...it is "one" nondual present moment experience.

If you came on like a light and go out like a light and there's nothing after there is no before the mind. I mean there is in that your birth didn't create the universe so obviously this world this physical space we all inhabit existed before you but for you, for your mind that's all hearsay more or less. Once your mind is on though, as you and others have said it's in the present it's never anywhere else the past can only be experienced as a memory and the future only as a speculation or prediction. They are only concepts of time that help create and maintain the framework of perception.

As for the altered state comment I could have sworn you made some connection to LSD and you developing this theory but now I can't seem to find where that is and I'm not pressed enough about it to try any harder then I already have.

 

[southflorida]

If you came on like a light and go out like a light and there's nothing after there is no before the mind. I mean there is in that your birth didn't create the universe so obviously this world this physical space we all inhabit existed before you but for you, for your mind that's all hearsay more or less. Once your mind is on though, as you and others have said it's in the present it's never anywhere else the past can only be experienced as a memory and the future only as a speculation or prediction. They are only concepts of time that help create and maintain the framework of perception.

As for the altered state comment I could have sworn you made some connection to LSD and you developing this theory but now I can't seem to find where that is and I'm not pressed enough about it to try any harder then I already have.

about LSD...I wrote about my experience with it in the desert, where
I saw aliens and alien ships...lol

...and that is exactly what I'm talking about HempKat...the part
that happens before the light comes on, and after it goes off.

...this part is Being/Consciousness that always "is."

...and as you, yourself have observed all this existed before
my birthdate, and at this moment, I am living as a self-mind,
and when I die, the self-mind will die with me, because the
brain that is producing these "perceptions" will die with me.

...but, before the light when on, and before it goes off, the part
of us that is not separated from the one consciousness/being,
but continues to be there, while we are living as this DISTINCT
self-mind...is what I'm pointing toward.

...the part that has no beggining and no end, that is everywhere and
at the same time nowhere, the paradox, the true nature of what
and who we are. I know this is not something that can be proven
or even explained, but what I'm trying to get across, and obviously
not succeeding (because it is impossible) is that we are this, have
always been this, and always will be this.

This is our foundation, the true nature, on which our "self-mind" has
built what we call our life, our moment to moment perceptions, and
when the light goes off, this part we created from the time we were
born, will die, but the foundation, the true nature will remain.

...what is can't vanish or persists or try to survive, because it
doesn't have to, but what isn't (mind, ego, self) can and will vanish,
and this is why it MUST persist and do everything to survive.

...so yes, it is a very difficult domain to communicate about, but still,
being and consciousness shouldn't be ignored, because it can be
directly experienced as itself. And this is what I'm trying to point
out. I know I will fail to do this, because the self-mind can't admit
that this part exists, but still, I'm writing about it because from
my perspective this is an interesting topic to share with others.

...even if I fail, still, pointing toward being/consciousness makes me
happy, because this is what I am, and what we all are, and what
everything is.

...it is all one, nondual present moment experience, and it is quite
amazing that we can even talk about this...even if it not something
that we can understand or believe in.

 

[HempKat]

about LSD...I wrote about my experience with it in the desert, where
I saw aliens and alien ships...lol

...and that is exactly what I'm talking about HempKat...the part
that happens before the light comes on, and after it goes off.

...this part is Being/Consciousness that always "is."

...and as you, yourself have observed all this existed before
my birthdate, and at this moment, I am living as a self-mind,
and when I die, the self-mind will die with me, because the
brain that is producing these "perceptions" will die with me.

...but, before the light when on, and before it goes off, the part
of us that is not separated from the one consciousness/being,
but continues to be there, while we are living as this DISTINCT
self-mind...is what I'm pointing toward.

...the part that has no beggining and no end, that is everywhere and
at the same time nowhere, the paradox, the true nature of what
and who we are. I know this is not something that can be proven
or even explained, but what I'm trying to get across, and obviously
not succeeding (because it is impossible) is that we are this, have
always been this, and always will be this.

This is our foundation, the true nature, on which our "self-mind" has
built what we call our life, our moment to moment perceptions, and
when the light goes off, this part we created from the time we were
born, will die, but the foundation, the true nature will remain.

...what is can't vanish or persists or try to survive, because it
doesn't have to, but what isn't (mind, ego, self) can and will vanish,
and this is why it MUST persist and do everything to survive.

...so yes, it is a very difficult domain to communicate about, but still,
being and consciousness shouldn't be ignored, because it can be
directly experienced as itself. And this is what I'm trying to point
out. I know I will fail to do this, because the self-mind can't admit
that this part exists, but still, I'm writing about it because from
my perspective this is an interesting topic to share with others.

...even if I fail, still, pointing toward being/consciousness makes me
happy, because this is what I am, and what we all are, and what
everything is.

...it is all one, nondual present moment experience, and it is quite
amazing that we can even talk about this...even if it not something
that we can understand or believe in.

Okay but now you're in the realm of "What if" as in What if we do exist before our birth as part of something bigger then ourselves. Or conversely what if we aren't a part of anything before we are born, we are just born and then eventually die, that there is no existence before or after. If it's the later then trying to be aware of what you were before you were you is pointless, you were nothing and so there is nothing to be aware of. Just because nothing has no beginning and end doesn't make it the same as infinity. I'm pretty sure this was pointed out a while ago in the discussion by someone, GMT I think? Nothing is the polar opposite of infinity, nothing is the absence of anything whereas infinity is a neverending abundence of something.

Now if it's the other what if, the one about existing as part of this infinite thing that seems pretty much like a convoluted way of talking about a supreme being or force to me. Then you have a problem because how can you possibly get in tune with something you don't even know for sure exists?

I have to stand on my conclusion that you've essentially tricked yourself with a thought that seemingly makes sense and explains everything but really doesn't. You can usually tell these sorts of things because invariably it boils down to something that can't really explained or proven, only experienced which is convenient because if you can't explain it to someone else, how can anyone else possibly experience it?

 

[southflorida]

Okay but now you're in the realm of "What if" as in What if we do exist before our birth as part of something bigger then ourselves. Or conversely what if we aren't a part of anything before we are born, we are just born and then eventually die, that there is no existence before or after. If it's the later then trying to be aware of what you were before you were you is pointless, you were nothing and so there is nothing to be aware of. Just because nothing has no beginning and end doesn't make it the same as infinity. I'm pretty sure this was pointed out a while ago in the discussion by someone, GMT I think? Nothing is the polar opposite of infinity, nothing is the absence of anything whereas infinity is a neverending abundence of something.

Now if it's the other what if, the one about existing as part of this infinite thing that seems pretty much like a convoluted way of talking about a supreme being or force to me. Then you have a problem because how can you possibly get in tune with something you don't even know for sure exists?

I have to stand on my conclusion that you've essentially tricked yourself with a thought that seemingly makes sense and explains everything but really doesn't. You can usually tell these sorts of things because invariably it boils down to something that can't really explained or proven, only experienced which is convenient because if you can't explain it to someone else, how can anyone else possibly experience it?

I agree that what I'm trying to get across, is very difficult to explain.
But, yesterday I was contemplating this and here is what came
into my mind.

If we use the computer to describe the human being, and how he
perceives life we would look at it like this:

1) what we see on the monitor is our perceptions

2) the hardware is the brain

3) the software is the mind

so when we are born, we are slowly loaded with software programming,
mostly through society/culture, and our empty hardware gets all
nicely filled up with all these "programs" and at some point we
start to run our own lives using the hardware, software, and
observing our reality on the monitor...right?

Now, this is all fine and dandy, but there is one element that is left
out, and that doesn't get really mentioned, but without which the
computer couldn't run. Not from the first moment when you get it
in your possession, not now, not tomorrow...never. What is this?

...Electricity, energy! This is what I'm pointing to, the thing that
makes us run, the invisible force that is the foundation, the true
nature of who we are.

...Now, obviously there are many ways that we can get energy to
run the computer, battery, sun-panels, simple electricity from the
wall, that comes from a power-plant, but no matter where this
electricity/energy comes from, it is a must that we have it in
order to run the hardware/software and to be able to see something
on the monitor.

...energy is also invisible, and you don't see it, but it can be directly
experienced and felt...lol

...so if we are like computers, where is this energy that is running
us coming from? The answer is we don't really know, we don't think
deeply about this at all. We simply taken for granted that we get
up every morning and we have enough energy to get through the
day. Some would say it is coming from the sun, but the question
then goes deeper, and becomes where is the sun getting its energy
and so on. And eventually you reach a place where the answer
is that you simply don't know.

...and this is the energy that I'm pointing toward, the being and
consciousness that made it possible for us to appear in this world
and what is making it possible for us to be in this moment.

...it is something we take for granted, but from my perspective, it
is something we can contemplate about, and if we do this on a regular
basis we can directly experience this energy, because it is making
this present moment possible.

...nature is a good name for it, but this word only points at what
it is, it does not tell us exactly what it is, as itself, and for itself,
we only look at nature in relation to what it means to us.

...but this is only one way of looking at it. There is another way,
and this is looking at nature as what it is for-itself and as-itself.

...this allows us to see that we are simply a "distinction" that this
nature has manifested, and we are temporary. And while everything
that is born eventually dies, in other words, it has a beginning and
an end, nature itself, simply is.

...you can't see NATURE...you can only see its manifestations, and
these manifestations are seen as distinctions, in other words
everything in nature is distinct/different from everything else.

...even things that seem the same, like human beings, are really
also distinct, and different from each other.

...and even every distinct human being has distinctions, and makes
distinctions on a moment-to-moment basis.

...these distinctions are what nature uses to manifest everything
that we see and observe and perceive every moment of our lives.

...so hopefully, with this post, I have been able to get across, at
least on some level what I have been pointing to all along.