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Terra Preta - Dark Soil - Experiment
- Thread starter SilverSurfer_OG
- Start date
my apologies, as this has surely been addressed, but i can't wade through the 50+ pages right now (i did read the first few and the last few). it seems as tho a majority of the benefits of char come with time.
as a container gardener, am i going to see any immediate effects from the addition of char? i'm imagining it will immediately absorb/sequester gases, and provide sites of microactivity.
what i'm unclear on is how soon it will be available to the population of mycorrhizae? and that begs the question how soon will the properties of water and nutrient retention be seen?
also, can i top dress with it? or maybe include it in a tea or solution and water it in? i'm notoriously last minute.
thanks in advance!
as a container gardener, am i going to see any immediate effects from the addition of char? i'm imagining it will immediately absorb/sequester gases, and provide sites of microactivity.
what i'm unclear on is how soon it will be available to the population of mycorrhizae? and that begs the question how soon will the properties of water and nutrient retention be seen?
also, can i top dress with it? or maybe include it in a tea or solution and water it in? i'm notoriously last minute.
thanks in advance!
The char will immediately provide water retention and porosity. Pre amended it will also provide a nutrient source. Microbes will begin to inhabit it immediately but it certainly improves with age.
Rules of thumb - pyrolise it at low temps. This provides two things - less nutirents are volatilised, and the functional groups at the char soil interface are acidic, which is desired.
Rule two - amend it before you put it in your soil. Either in a compost cycle or by pouring something in with it. The numbers of microbes char can house is very high, they all require nutrients to grow as well, the initial nutes are to support the microherd, most of these will cycle to plants eventually.
If you got chicken litter or steer manure etc you can char that and put it straight in your soil mix. Low temps!
Rules of thumb - pyrolise it at low temps. This provides two things - less nutirents are volatilised, and the functional groups at the char soil interface are acidic, which is desired.
Rule two - amend it before you put it in your soil. Either in a compost cycle or by pouring something in with it. The numbers of microbes char can house is very high, they all require nutrients to grow as well, the initial nutes are to support the microherd, most of these will cycle to plants eventually.
If you got chicken litter or steer manure etc you can char that and put it straight in your soil mix. Low temps!
sounds good thanx for your input SilverSurfer_OG
I will also be making up 50ltrs of this stuff and be using it as my medium for one of my outdoor plants that will be in the ground, should be intersting to see how she does comparedtothe rest
I anticipate your plant will grow strong and healthy but will require less nutes. Perhaps will need a little less waterings. If you keep the site going for a few years then you will eventully need no amendments but mulch. Thats my aim for entire garden. Good luck
@heady blunts -For containers I am very happy with my LC's#1 amended with about 5-10% char and recycled. It is good for seedlings, clones or adult plants. You will see healthier plants that require less nutes.
I am very happy with my experiments using char as mulch. No worries
My last batch was made in a simple fire pit and I ended up with 2 wheelbarrows full of char. I have soaked in urine, worm runoff, kelp and a few other bits and pieces. Yesterday i took some char out of its marinade and did a PH test. It came out as quite strongly alkaline at around 9. My LCs#1 with the char was around 6.5.
I believe if properly pyrolised the ph should come back to a more neutral PH. That is now my aim...
fredcdobbs
Member
what all do you replenish yer lc's mix with?
A nice tea or bottled nute with a decent amount of N and trace elements. You can flush with water first if you feel its necessary. Perhaps a bit more dolomite lime if its on 2nd or 3rd rotation.
Now that I have a good PH test kit I will check to see if the dolomite isnt going to make it too alkaline when i recycle.
Then either mix some dry nutes through the medium or topdress. I like pushing about a tsp of dry ferts in each corner of pot or around the outside edge if round. This makes the roots reach out for a feed
Now that I have a good PH test kit I will check to see if the dolomite isnt going to make it too alkaline when i recycle.
Then either mix some dry nutes through the medium or topdress. I like pushing about a tsp of dry ferts in each corner of pot or around the outside edge if round. This makes the roots reach out for a feed
terry the trich
Member
Personally im going to aim for up to 40% char in my TP eventually. I use both broken and crushed terra cotta but only in small amounts so far as i havent put myself out to source some more. I also add worm casts, rotted down cow manure and bone meal but have been collecting animal bones also and will add these as soon as i get the chance to break/crush them up. I have only been using home made TP for a few months, but so far it seems to be better than the old compost + perlite and vermiculite. I know it will get better with each grow.
I wish i had a garden so that i could do composting as i keep mice and i throw away a lot of mouse bedding (wood shavings) that get soaked in mouse piss and is rich in mouse poo. Some potentially very fertile material if composted.
I havent added blood meal yet as i know from previous experience that it can burn plants easily. Anyone here use bloodmeal in their TP mix?
For you aussies, how about the land where there are bushfires year after year? Has anyone dug down into the soil in these areas to see the make up of it? Maybe there were bushfires every year in the amazon basin (whether started by nature or humans). If the soil is very rich in charcoal in these bushfire areas then that could be a good source of terra preta for your gardens.
Here in the uk the soil carbon levels are apparently getting very low, but im betting that farmers going right back in time used to add charcoal to their soils. The fields around here are rich in broken terra cotta roof tiles or pottery and flint. Obviously the flint is a good source of silica. I wonder how long its been since people added char to the farmers fields. Terra preta is not a new thing, its just something that has been almost forgotten over time. Amazing how such a great thing could be forgotten, but modern fertilizers, ignorant governments and fast changing societies all had a role to play in this.
I wish i had a garden so that i could do composting as i keep mice and i throw away a lot of mouse bedding (wood shavings) that get soaked in mouse piss and is rich in mouse poo. Some potentially very fertile material if composted.
I havent added blood meal yet as i know from previous experience that it can burn plants easily. Anyone here use bloodmeal in their TP mix?
For you aussies, how about the land where there are bushfires year after year? Has anyone dug down into the soil in these areas to see the make up of it? Maybe there were bushfires every year in the amazon basin (whether started by nature or humans). If the soil is very rich in charcoal in these bushfire areas then that could be a good source of terra preta for your gardens.
Here in the uk the soil carbon levels are apparently getting very low, but im betting that farmers going right back in time used to add charcoal to their soils. The fields around here are rich in broken terra cotta roof tiles or pottery and flint. Obviously the flint is a good source of silica. I wonder how long its been since people added char to the farmers fields. Terra preta is not a new thing, its just something that has been almost forgotten over time. Amazing how such a great thing could be forgotten, but modern fertilizers, ignorant governments and fast changing societies all had a role to play in this.
mrF- exactly the info i needed, thank you! is there a special method to keep burn temperatures low? are we talking like 450 degF is low? or should i be putting it in my oven for a long period at a much lower temp?
silversurfer recommended a campfire type burn:
fredcdobbs
Member
where did you find a good ph kit?
Restriction of air will lower the temperature of the fire. Check out the two barrel system, or make a fire then bury it, read up, the info's all here in the thread or links.
Bones - char these - the original TP had bones, but not many reports of the fact they were mostly charred. Lots of P for your soil.
Bones - char these - the original TP had bones, but not many reports of the fact they were mostly charred. Lots of P for your soil.
Yeah check out my first post. Right at the bottom i added what i regard the best links and the easiest way to make good char. My campfire burn was a big hole in the ground full of offcuts and branches. It was easy and it worked but i can do much better.
My ph test is made by manutec. I got it at the local hardware shop. Its very easy to use. Just take a tsp of soil and add few drops of purple liquid. Mix it around on test plate and then sprinkle with this white powder. It then changes colour to indicate the ph. For garden beds it says to take around 10 samples from different depths etc. I like it very much
My ph test is made by manutec. I got it at the local hardware shop. Its very easy to use. Just take a tsp of soil and add few drops of purple liquid. Mix it around on test plate and then sprinkle with this white powder. It then changes colour to indicate the ph. For garden beds it says to take around 10 samples from different depths etc. I like it very much
fredcdobbs
Member
thanks a lot
Billy DeLions
Member
SS
Great thread, still working my way through it... learning a bunch, thanks for the info!
Great thread, still working my way through it... learning a bunch, thanks for the info!
mrF and SSOG-
ahhh yes those links are great. sorry i overlooked them the first time around. especially excited about the biochar blog. cool site.
ahhh yes those links are great. sorry i overlooked them the first time around. especially excited about the biochar blog. cool site.
I skipped the making part and bought charcoal like Jaykush did at the beginning of the thread. I picked up two kinds of charcoal from Fred Meyers, some oak and some mesquite, and both were in the 6 to 6-5 range. Some of the larger pieces were not quite charred through.
I am spending a lot of time thinking about getting a Worldstove, but have not contacted them yet. Also, Clackamas Coot used his smoker to pyrolyze his rice hulls, I believe. An electric kiln (outside) would work too.
Too soon to know how it's doing - all are looking great, no burning from the soil mix, using a strong nutrient tea to soak the char in before incorporating.
I did get some strange thing I've seem mention of when watering with the leftover nutrient/char tea in pots that didn't have char in it yet - used alfalfa, neem seed , crab meal, some fish, and got some strong fast growth that was lime yellow (crayon yellow?) without purple stems, this turned into edge burn and necrotic spots, which all got better when repotted. I wonder if this is alfalfa related. It was different than what I had ever seen previously.
It seemed that the idea of a biochar tea would work well, as so much of it gets powdered - it seems possible that watering it in with teas would be a way of getting some benefit from it - maybe this would be good for activated charcoal incorporation.
I am spending a lot of time thinking about getting a Worldstove, but have not contacted them yet. Also, Clackamas Coot used his smoker to pyrolyze his rice hulls, I believe. An electric kiln (outside) would work too.
Too soon to know how it's doing - all are looking great, no burning from the soil mix, using a strong nutrient tea to soak the char in before incorporating.
I did get some strange thing I've seem mention of when watering with the leftover nutrient/char tea in pots that didn't have char in it yet - used alfalfa, neem seed , crab meal, some fish, and got some strong fast growth that was lime yellow (crayon yellow?) without purple stems, this turned into edge burn and necrotic spots, which all got better when repotted. I wonder if this is alfalfa related. It was different than what I had ever seen previously.
It seemed that the idea of a biochar tea would work well, as so much of it gets powdered - it seems possible that watering it in with teas would be a way of getting some benefit from it - maybe this would be good for activated charcoal incorporation.
Possibly some overthinking going on there Albertine but it's all good.
What is the temp range of the electric kiln - you could be onto a good thing.
Activated charcoal has even more nute drawing capabilities than bio-char. It is useful in soil, but not as good. Science to back that but I aint hunting it down it's too early for organised thought...
Worldstove huh.Youcan buy them now that's awesome. Hook us up with a link?
What is the temp range of the electric kiln - you could be onto a good thing.
Activated charcoal has even more nute drawing capabilities than bio-char. It is useful in soil, but not as good. Science to back that but I aint hunting it down it's too early for organised thought...
Worldstove huh.Youcan buy them now that's awesome. Hook us up with a link?
Your fast growth thingo may have been ph related. Thats the one of the only downsides with organic diy stuff is sometimes you know you went wrong but be buggered if you can figure out exactly what!
Good work everyone!
@Terry the trich - Have you looked into bokashi for your kitchen waste/wood shavings? It doesnt stink out your house and can be kept in sealed drums until its good to go. Does smell a bit but not as bad as if just left to rot... you could get some kind of indoor worm farm going but depends on your situation.
Hunting in the bush for char isnt as fun as you might think... I have found some where forestry do burn offs but its about a 2 hour round trip through snake infested scrub. Tried using it for a guerilla grow but the 'soil' is virtually non-existent. Just very hard clay and god knows what chemicals the forestry crews been using... diesel spills etc. By the time i have filled up the boot of my car i could have charred a whole bunch in the privacy of my garden.
Maybe a good idea if you live near a major bush fire zone but who wants to live there...
Good work everyone!
@Terry the trich - Have you looked into bokashi for your kitchen waste/wood shavings? It doesnt stink out your house and can be kept in sealed drums until its good to go. Does smell a bit but not as bad as if just left to rot... you could get some kind of indoor worm farm going but depends on your situation.
Hunting in the bush for char isnt as fun as you might think... I have found some where forestry do burn offs but its about a 2 hour round trip through snake infested scrub. Tried using it for a guerilla grow but the 'soil' is virtually non-existent. Just very hard clay and god knows what chemicals the forestry crews been using... diesel spills etc. By the time i have filled up the boot of my car i could have charred a whole bunch in the privacy of my garden.
Maybe a good idea if you live near a major bush fire zone but who wants to live there...
I don't know - it's the same site, but the link to the US sales is still blank. I thought I would contact through the main info and see what was up. If I come up with anything I'll put it up.
I checked the ph of the tea, it was ok, but who knows. I remember Grapeman saying he thought he got a shortage after applying alfalfa tea, seen others talking about burn with it, plus some talking about a crayon yellow thing after a nutrient tea - it was odd, so I stopped. Out of balance somehow.
MrFista
I bought some fresh coconut water yesterday at a Thai food market. I bought 8 oz. each of both regular coconut as well as green coconut water (the ones covered with the thick white hull).
I did learn that at one time coconut juice was used in tissue culture propagation by Monrovia Nursery in Forest Grove, Oregon.
Any suggestions on application rate? I was thinking about 2 oz. per gallon - something along those lines.
You might also find aloe vera juice an interesting subject - particularly its saponin content and the relationship with saponin and the uptake of calcium and iron.
CC
Are there any problems with using mesquite charcoal? How about the Royal Oak lump charcoal product?
Thanks!
CC
Thanks!
CC
