FLUSHING ORGANICS - Blood+bone vs Guanos vs Bottled Organic Nutrients

[Weird]

Is this from your perfect soil mix that finishes releasing nutrients in sync with the time that the plant takes to mature?

perfect soil mix?

ive never added more than ewc and now i only top dress it and guano, MAYBE a lil dr earth

now im using earth juice, before that I was using pure blend original, used everything else at some time or another before that. started a long long time ago with good ol' gh when green air products still made nutes and had zappa hidden on the box

my plants always get fed and treated in that manner and i get very similar results

i prefer organic and microbial active soil but i like to brew and drop in the food and microbes

if organic precursors were more available than liquid nutes and i had the proper space to compost and rotate soil in a full life cycle maybe it would be different

 

[spurr]

Weird, loved you pics, esp. the bubblegum! Good work.

 

[trichrider]

my bad, i was under the impression that osmotice pressure was caused by transpiration(respiration) drawing the solute from the pool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpiration

 

[Tyrone420]

...

 

[Iron_Lion]

Flushing Organics?? Maybe I should get my pH meter out???

Yes maybe you should, from my experience there can be a need to pH water and teas. this is one of those internet myths that keeps getting blindly passed on from grower to grower without anyone having any basis for this opinion.

it may be true that 90%+ organic growers will have good luck with not pHing their water. and here is where that does not apply, I have well water 7.1 (which has a tendency to fluctuate greatly after heavy rains) and I have used a soil mix heavily amended with oyster shells and lime. if I use 7.0 water one my 7.0 soil I get 7.0 run off and I will have problems, if I pour 6.3 ph on my 7.0 soil I get 6.5 run off.

peeps need to stop spreading rumors and start posting science and experience. I am open to anyone's new opinion, it is difference of opinion that leads to great discoveries not only in growing but all science.

 

[spurr]

my bad, i was under the impression that osmotice pressure was caused by transpiration(respiration) drawing the solute from the pool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpiration

Ca movement into plants is greatly dependent upon E (rate of transpiration), as are some other elements, this is why it's best to provide ideal "air to leaf Vapor Pressure Deficit" (and why we should not use RH); thus, you are correct, esp. about Ca. However, transpiration and respiration are two different things.

 

[trichrider]

sorry to make you feel whooped, but ima trying to get a grip on why and when the plant is going to absorb nutrients.
if light is reduced, photosynthesis is also. As is need for nutes to fuel cell process, with repsonse of plant using less?
arrgh, help me out here, spurr!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Membrane_transport_protein

 

[Yankee Grower]

Please elaborate on both claims. How does top or bottom feeding change the plant's uptake of nutrients? Fulvic aids in nutrient transport, but how does that affect the need for flushing? I could see your point if you were discussing Humic acid (which feeds microbes and affects uptake).

Thanks,

Well the bottle thing is influenced by if it's really organic or not for starters and I'm not talking about OMRI organic certification...lol. Some peeps use Botanicare Cal-Mag in 'organic' programs yet the EDTA is very microlife unfriendly. Still even with what I would consider organic bottled nutes I notice a difference in quality compared to building soil filled with nutes and growing that way. One thing I asked myself once is do nutes fall from the sky and what did plants do before man came along?

As for the humic/fulvic thing fulvic is the chelator that humic is not and that's what I was referring to.

I've grown GH 3 part in rockwool in a pretty sterile enviro to organics in soil and quite a few different ways in between. You can easily get 'pretty' looking faded finished plants grown with GH 3 part in an inert media that smokes like crap and 'ugly' looking finished green organically grown plants that smoke sweet and smooth. I've also had a lot of organically grown plants that were crap and my GH hydro kicked ass in comparison...lol.

To me 'flushing organics' is an oxymoron.

 

[spurr]

Yes maybe you should, from my experience there can be a need to pH water and teas. this is one of those internet myths that keeps getting blindly passed on from grower to grower without anyone having any basis for this opinion.

it may be true that 90%+ organic growers will have good luck with not pHing their water. and here is where that does not apply, I have well water 7.1 (which has a tendency to fluctuate greatly after heavy rains) and I have used a soil mix heavily amended with oyster shells and lime. if I use 7.0 water one my 7.0 soil I get 7.0 run off and I will have problems, if I pour 6.3 ph on my 7.0 soil I get 6.5 run off.

Water pH has very little affect upon media pH. To test media pH we shouldn't simply collect water as it drains away right after watering the media, that doesn't show us the true pH of the media. A water pH from 5.5 to 7.5, even up to 8 is fine with organics, this in not opinion, it's soil science. The root and microbial exudates have the biggest affect upon media pH (i.e. pH of the rhizosphere and soil solution). To test media pH use the "Pour Through" method or the "Saturated Paste Extract" method. I wrote about both methods very recently so you can search with my username and those terms to learn how to properly test media pH if you wish.

It's the alkalinity of the water that affect media pH, not the water pH, unless the pH of the water is extreme using hard acids like sulfuric acid. Phosphoric acid (i.e. pH down) or citric acid won't affect media pH to any worthwhile degree unless the water pH is below ~<4. Likewise, for water pH to affect media pH in a basic direction (to a worthwhile degree) the water pH needs to be ~>11.

If your water pH fluctuates heavily after rains I bet you get increased level of alkalinity in your water, this isn't the same thing as alkaline (basic) water. Water with high alkalinity has a pH of 7 or greater, but water with a pH of 7 or greater doesn't necessarily have high alkalinity. Ideally water should have 40-60 ppm alkalinity (level of bicarbonates, carbonates, etc.) and over 100 ppm alkalinity is not good water to use because it can increase media pH too greatly.

The level of alkalinity in water, or lack there of, is what has the biggest effect upon media pH from fertigation (not considering ammoniacal N vs. nitrate N or other methods to affect media pH like apply iron sulfate).

peeps need to stop spreading rumors and start posting science and experience. I am open to anyone's new opinion, it is difference of opinion that leads to great discoveries not only in growing but all science.

see above

 

[spurr]

As for the humic/fulvic thing fulvic is the chelator that humic is not and that's what I was referring to.

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty (almost 100%) positive humic acid is a chelating agent.

 

[Yankee Grower]

I think to visualize that there is an abundance of bioavailable organic nutrients sitting as a pool waiting to be sucked up is unrealistic. Nature is not like that. There is always a cleanup or storage crew on hand to use up or lock up bioavailable nutrients.

Humans, and in particular cannabis growers like to feel that they are controlling all the changes the plant goes through and I suppose there is more of a case to make when utilizing ionic fertilizers but sometimes I think the changes observed by the boys who wrote the fancy books were more natural changes (flowering, senescence) than input variances.

I thought MM's post in general really rocked. Changes I made changed no info.

 

[Yankee Grower]

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty (almost 100%) positive humic acid is a chelating agent.

Maybe if you consider humic and fulvic acids in the same class which they kind of are but are not? They sure don't act the same in high/low pH enviros. Cali will not allow products labeled with a fulvic acid claim/content. Even the test methods used are under review by the scientific community. According to the Cali Department of Ag there is no acceptable test for fulvic acid. You can use something like the CDFA method or the IHSS method and pretty sure Cali only recognizes the CDFA method which lumps humic and fulvic together and does not recognize fulvic as separate. I PM'd you a 'link' to someone working 'behind the scenes' on this whole issue . If you wanna talk to someone directly about what's going on it would be him...or you could wait a few years for any papers to be published.

 

[Yankee Grower]

So you don't miss an edit the older XAD resin column method as part of the IHSS stuff has recently been changed to the DAX method or something like that. That was like 6 months or so ago so who knows where things stand now..lol.

 

[spurr]

Spurr wrote:

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty (almost 100%) positive humic acid is a chelating agent.

Maybe if you consider humic and fulvic acids in the same class which they kind of are but are not?

Well, AFAIK fulvic acid comes from humic acid(?), and in a solution of humic acid (HA) there exists fulvic acid (FA).

Here is one of many quotes about humic acid chelation abilities from the great e-booklet written by Dr. Boris V. Levinsky, PhD (I cited it below):

"A particularly large number of processes can be observed in system humate-soil. The humic acids are natural complex generators. All essential microelements, being the variable-valence metals, form chelate complexes with the humates. This is a determinant for plants’ nourishment."
​

They sure don't act the same in high/low pH enviros.

True. AFAIK when pH of humic acid solution drops below 3 the HA will precipitate out of the solution (becoming insoluble) leaving some FA in solution; is that your understanding too?

FWIW, humic acid solution is not generally acidic, it's usually alkaline; thus using the word acid kind of misnomer (or at least confusing to most people). The word "acid" is not referring to the pH of the humic acid, it's referring to acid bound to humate.

Cali will not allow products labeled with a fulvic acid claim/content. Even the test methods used are under review by the scientific community. According to the Cali Department of Ag there is no acceptable test for fulvic acid.

Interesting, thanks for that, I was unaware Cali felt that way. I can provide some info from Dr. Boris V. Levinsky, PhD, a world-renowned colloidal scientist and advanced humic acid researcher (from Russia, the Ruskies are all over humic acid). Below is some good info from TeraVita, who hired Dr. Levinsky PhD, to develop their product line and to write tech articles for them.

I source my humic acid solution from TeraVita, I get a speical custom made humic acid with a pH of 5.5-6. Most humic acid liquid pH is basic with a pH of ~8 to 9, if the pH is over ~10 that means it is not good HA due to excessive caustic soda used to extract the HA (and a poor neutralization process to boot).

The humic acid liquid (solution) i use has a low pH (5.5-6) and closely resembles the traits and structure of stable soil humus; it's a world apart from 'normal' humic acid liquid at hydro stores. I use that product to increase humus content of sollless media.


1. "All about humates"
a must read e-booklet by Dr. Boris V. Levinsky, PhD
http://www.teravita.com/Humates/HumateIntro.htm

Check out the info about using humates to cause water to obtain the structure of melted water (previously frozen) for watering plants (link)! [i.e. 0.005-0.009% humates by weight; I have tried using 0.01% for ease of use])

Sections in that booklet:

1. Introduction
2. The Theory Behind Humates
3. The Effects of Humates on Crops
4. The Effects of Humates on the Quality of Produce
5. The Protective Effects of Humates
6. The Effects of Humates on Soil
7. The Use of Humates With Chemical Fertilizers
8. The Use of Humates With Organic Fertilizers
9. The Use of Humates in Poultry and Stock Farming
10. Conclusion

2. MYTH: "[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Only Fulvic Acids are responsible for plant growth stimulation and development, while the Humic Acids are responsible for improving the soil’s structure"[/FONT]
http://www.teravita.com/Realities/Reality 4.htm


3. "The ferments of humic and fulvic acids."
http://www.teravita.com/Technical Articles/Ferments of Humic and Fulvic Acids.htm

An article explaining research that shows how humic acids can actually play a vital role that is often attributed only to fulvic acids.


4. "Are there natural fulvic acids?"
Synopsis by Dr. Boris V. Levinsky, PhD, June 2002.
http://www.teravita.com/Technical Articles/fulvic acids.htm

A brief synopsis of recent research indicating that fulvic acids are only "created" through extraction techniques and are not naturally present in soil, peat, or lignite. AFAIK compost does contain FA but I'm not sure, this topic seem erlevent to the issues Cali has with FA...

 

[spurr]

@ Yankee,

Here is one other pretty good technical read about humic acid:


"Humus, humic acid and humates"
http://www.groproorganics.com/images/Humus, Humates and Humic Acid.pdf

 

[rasputin]

Yes maybe you should, from my experience there can be a need to pH water and teas. this is one of those internet myths that keeps getting blindly passed on from grower to grower without anyone having any basis for this opinion.

it may be true that 90%+ organic growers will have good luck with not pHing their water. and here is where that does not apply, I have well water 7.1 (which has a tendency to fluctuate greatly after heavy rains) and I have used a soil mix heavily amended with oyster shells and lime. if I use 7.0 water one my 7.0 soil I get 7.0 run off and I will have problems, if I pour 6.3 ph on my 7.0 soil I get 6.5 run off.

peeps need to stop spreading rumors and start posting science and experience. I am open to anyone's new opinion, it is difference of opinion that leads to great discoveries not only in growing but all science.

Individuals may be misrepresenting the pH line of thinking but the stated info on the matter is not a rumor or myth. The organics for beginners thread doesn't say not to pH water, it says your soil and nute solution don't need to be pHed.

Organics for beginners thread - I hear a lot of people asking or talking about the pH of their organic soil mix or organic nute solution and how they might correct or adjust it. pH in organics is not an issue like it is in synthetic growing.
The best place to settle the pH issues in organics is within the grow medium. A medium rich in humates (humus) is the place to start. Humates work to "buffer" the pH of organic mediums and the nutes you pour (or mix) into it.

If your initial water source is good then yes, it's true pHing is not necessary. In my experience, you don't need to pH teas, run-off or anything like that. I've had great results using spring water generally around 6.4-6.6. I don't like using anything over 7 but I haven't had problems from doing it either. My container mix is just sunshine organic blend, perlite, ewc, and dolomite lime.

 

[VerdantGreen]

here is a good, simple link on CEC (Cation exchange capacity)
this is why leaching/flushing is pretty pointless in good quality soil with plenty of organic matter and humus (clay also performs the same function)

http://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_Exchange_Simplified.htm

All of the nutrients in the soil need to be held there somehow, or they will just wash away when you water the garden or get a good rainstorm. Clay particles almost always have a negative (-) charge, so they attract and hold positively (+) charged nutrients and non-nutrients. Soil organic matter (SOM) has both positive and negative charges, so it can hold on to both cations and anions.

 

[VerdantGreen]

and of course many of the nutes are held in the life cycle of microbes and cant be leached either.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Properties of Humic Substances

Properties of Humic Substances

Here's some research on Properties Of Humic Substances

This link shows the range of colors of fulvic acid (light yellow) through humic (dark brown and light gray) and humin (black).

It also has drawings of the fulvic acid molecules as well as humic acid molecules - quite a huge difference is size and structure which is one reason for the suggestion of applying fulvic acid as a foliar application may be the better method.

This study is from the body of work titled Soil Humic Substances

This body of work is from

Dr. Jerzy Weber
Professor of Soil science
Department of Soil Science & Agricultural Environment Protection
Agricultural University
Wroclaw, Poland

HTH

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

The Real Dirt on Humic Substances is another good read. It touches on what Yankee Grower was discussing (in part) relative to the California laws on the use of the term 'fulvic acid' in products. Oregon has the same law and it's my understanding from the folks involved in getting the law originally passed in Oregon that they are now working to get a similar law passed in Washington.

I can't recall which was first - Oregon or California but it was the same group that petitioned the state legislatures in those states and got the laws passed. It's Oregon & California's laws that are causing so many grow store products to end up on Oregon's 'Stop Sale' list issued by the Oregon Department of Agriculture.

Advanced Nutrients now has over 30 products 'de-listed' - not all for the fulvic acid deal. They're so dirty it would be hard to pin-point each and every one. Bio-Bizz is also on that list as are several Botanicare elixirs with several more scheduled to be on the next list later this month.

CC