mothersucker
Member
He threatened to punch me. Straight in the head!
Extremely Urgent help needed identifying catastrophic repeating problem
Mother ty for the response. But even you gotta admit when a person signs up in June and has 95 posts and in return has 10 or so reported post you are running at a 10% we don't like your posts response rate so maybe it's not them this time?
Just A Thought
Mr.Wags
Just A Thought
Mr.Wags
Sorry, but you're not indicating anything other than assurances.
Demanding the situation is under control isn't the same as commanding the situation itself.
If this sounds redundant, it's intended to. You're so certain the environment is correct, you're not seeking the micro. That said, you can't possibly determine the macro. If by chance you have these hard statistics, post them to save you (and others) time.
Have you ever seen the infirm questionnaire? There's not one question that asks... are you sure everything is ok?
When it comes to determining factors, it asks for specifics. If you list these specifics, folks can more easily reassure you, whether you disregard is your fortune or misfortune.
First off, you need an EC number and a pH number. These numbers are best determined in the runoff. This is because the substrate and the water/feed (added together) combine to make the environment.
If your runoff EC is low - you need to feed. If the EC is higher than expected, chances are you have lockout (at least the onset of.) The more salts you have in the substrate, the lower the pH is gonna get as the substrate dries off.
How are you determining pH? It doesn't matter as much what you're pouring in, it's the combined water and substrate. pH is probably the MOST fickle element to determine when growing houseplants. pH meters are probably the MOST fickle pH tool in your tool shed. Not only do they require calibration on a regular basis, (regular is relative) they can still mislead if the reading is taken before the read itself stabilizes. pH meters are only as good as their care. Proper maintenance is only as good as following the mfg's specifications, with the proper solutions (for the respective meter.) If the drops indicate the meter reading is suspect, consider a new meter probe. But only after you've eliminated the variables:
Is your meter calibrated?
Is the probe tip stored wet?
Are you rinsing the salts after use?
Are you using non-contaminated solutions?
How old is the probe?
If you're using a pH meter, it might not be a bad idea to get a backup such as test drops. Drop kits are cheap and reliable, even if they're not as convenient as meters.
Don't have pH tools? - You need to obtain one or two, at least until you understand what you've got in lieu of pH.
Substrate - Coco is only as good as the overall pH. You won't get a definitive pH number until the runoff is read.
Soil less mix is typically too hot for mj straight from the bag. Dolomitic lime is one of the most common additives that we add to soil less to sweeten the environment.
Soil less - as much as a tablespoon per gallon of mix.... that's a butt load of lime. On average, soil less can be as low as 5.6, straight out of the bag. Mj typically needs ~6.5 in soil less. However some growers range from 6.2 to 6.8 depending on environment (the cumulative-bottom line of ingredients.)
Seed starter - even hotter than soil less. This is because seed starter is primarily peat in many circumstances. While tiny plants aren't as affected by hot mix, it's because they haven't yet started absorbing Ca and Mg in quantity. As soon as they get 3 to 4 weeks old (your particulars may vary) they start to consume these two elements and pH is critical. For example, in soil less, Ca and Mg can start to lock out once the pH (runoff) dips below ~6.4. Rather than take these numbers as gospel, your numbers may vary. These are starting points, not an endgame.
Seed starter could need as much as 1.5 to 2 tablespoons of lime per gallon of mix due to the high peat content.
Answers are as good as the particulars you provide. The reason why we have the infirmary questions is because they ask for hard statistics, not reassurances that everything is ok. Based on the pics, it's obvious that everything isn't ok. You realize everything isn't ok. We realize and care enough to help you with the problem, even if you're dysfunctional reaction delays functional action.
If you haven't already, consider answering the infirmary questionnaire. It's there for you to communicate in a language we're familiar. We all use it from time to time and it serves us and it's purpose well.
BTW, I hear that coco needs 5.6 to 6.2 pH. That's a considerable range, you're sweet-spot might be a little lower.
Without correct readings, you'll never be certain what the culprit is. No matter how insistent. Once you get things where you expect, you can relax on readings. Until then:
Every bag of soil less, seed starter etc will have a variance of pH (straight out of the bag.) I don't use coco but I know it's a little tougher to dial in, often requires a rinse before use and might vary in pH from source to source.
Best wishes with your grows.
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ganjaments
Member
are you using light warrior? (some strains HATE LightWarrior for seedlings)
Without runoff pH/EC readings, not knowing is what's worse. Several defs are apparent in the op's pics. It's either a single factor or combination of imbalance/lockout, lack of feeding, water levels, water problems...etc. Temp, air flow, container sterilization...etc. Lowering variables from potential multiples to 1, maybe 2 is key. Once we're at or beyond the second, possibly unknown variable, the combination itself may render visual-symptom diagnosis to guess.
Until then, a guess is only as good as corrective action and knowing what the action requires. Then a process to eliminate any remaining, unknown variables is only as good as maintaining prior correction(s). In other words, if corrected pH doesn't fix the problems, undetermined factors have to be identified, corrected if necessary, while simultaneously maintaining correct pH.
Depending on medium and other variables, correct pH might not be a static number. Correct pH might have to drift (a bit) to get balanced absorption.
A runoff EC reading might determine if nute levels are low - or if buildup is evident. Any buildup is more than likely unbalanced because of different pH absorption ranges per individual nutrient.
Even if a ball park EC is present in the medium, only balanced EC (along with correct pH) will start to reduce visual symptoms. A flush may provide a clean-slate to start controlled action. Controlled actions are only readable measurements (or the experience to know what doesn't work.)
Balanced nutes - One of the easiest ways to maintain balance is to purchase Mj friendly, balanced formulas***. Only add micros if this respective, balanced formula excludes (or includes at insufficient level(s).) For example, Lucas is two-part, measured and proven, for years. Floranova is basically Lucas in one bottle. Each respective example might appear to be deficient in Mg. A correct analysis might show otherwise. The strain in question could be a Mg hog. Adding more Mg is actually the second corrective action. The first action is determining correct pH. Otherwise, added Mg might cause build-up and eventually, lock-out.
*** If you're rockin' organic, a proven recipe for starters might be key. Then one may more easily tweak their own parameters for improvement. While castings, guanos, respective meals etc are great ingredients, they're only as good as the plant stage and the formula they're contained.
Mg is a tough row to hoe and understand, early on. Additionally, it's good to cut off additional Mg after the 3rd, maybe the 4th week of flower. Not only because Mg-use wanes after this point, it tastes bad if the harvest carries excess. We not only want sufficient, balanced levels of all nutes for growth, we also want depleted levels of N and Mg at the end for a better tasting harvest. These elements aren't easily removed with plain waterings, even two week flush-type harvest rituals.
Balanced EC is only as good as the record, whether memory or note-keeping. Absent easily recognizable visual-symptoms, knowing what's been added is the only way to determine what's additionally needed. More importantly, whether pH is allowing absorption or festering build-up and or lock out .
For instance, my plant in soil less shows a Mg def. However, I know it's due to low pH, not because I'm under-feeding or experiencing unbalanced nute levels. (This is why the infirm questionnaire asks what is being fed and what amounts, how frequently, etc.) The answer determines potential imbalance -versus- other potential feed problems.
More Mg at this point would only compound my single problem because it's already present in the medium. My particular correction involves adding pH up to feed solutions. This is because my plain-water pH of ~7.5 is lowered to ~5.6 with balanced nutes added. I still get NPK absorption but Mg is locked in the medium.
When it's necessary to give my plant plain water, I have to use pH down to get 7.5pH to 6.5 or 6.8.
In this particular grow, my ill-measured lime renders runoff pH too high. This means I have to compensate by pouring in solutions of ~6.2 to get ball park runoff. I wouldn't have known this condition had I not measured runoff prior to planting. However, my compromise is comparatively poor to correctly limed soil less. Visual symptoms are harder to determine whereas my previous grow was symptom free.
"Nutes water only" can indeed be part of the problem. But the op has also said the "little plants" aren't getting any feed yet. Not so much size, but age will determine whether micros are needed. Other factors (dialed-in availability) will determine whether these necessary micros are absorbed.
In soil less, it's helpful to know and understand that NPK can still be absorbed as low as 5pH while Ca and Mg need higher than 6. In addition, understanding that K and advanced Mg defs actually look like burn (necrotic tissue) Understanding that incorrect Mg levels can make diagnosis of other visual signs difficult is also helpful.
Coco obviously has it's own particulars. I can only use soil less (a more forgiving medium) as example.
Best wishes, I'm certain you'll get it worked out. I was the consummate outdoor gardener who killed every indoor plant I met. Baring the occasional, fickle strain, I'm getting much better with potted plants.
On the bright side, there's more than one way to achieve regularity.
Most involve a process that the individual grower likes best. They all have a common denominator, understanding their own, respective process.
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captinknots
Member
it seems like youve done everything in the world but feeding the dam things. they look hungry to me. i thought my soil had nutes too, and went through a similar phase as you. I solved my problems by fertilizing my plants in my so called nutrient rich soil. not rich enough i guess. and thats with lc's soil mix with blood,bone, and other shit in it! feed them dude.
captainknots is right, cyber echo. You're doing what it takes to accomplish the task. It's a little more process oriented. Whether your grow skills are expert or less, you'll occasionally get the problem that tilts your memory. So much, we might forget to reestablish what we know works from experience. Identify any new components, i.e. medium, nutes, hardware, water source etc. Any of these and more can render a curve to your visual symptoms.
Before you do anything expensive or experience as much anxiety as I have, remember. There's a simple answer. Unfortunately, those who have missed your grow threads aren't familiar with details outside those you've provided. Any requested details may not apply to you. But you have a protocol to tweak or establish.
The easiest way to do this is fill out Stitch's questionnaire and past it in this thread. If you'll change the color or font of your answers, you can type out the answer beside the question. Makes it easy to see the necessary elements that are causing the problem. Please consider. Until then, you're certain everything is in check. Let's take another look and see if we can spot any problem.
Guys...
I am seriously pissed off with whats going on..
I've been battling the SAME thing for the past few months and this is happening with every single plant I try to grow. It is getting extremely annoying as I have almost ruled out everything and the way this "thing" is progressing is unlike anything I've ever seen and makes no sense at all.
This is happening in both soilless (Canna Coco) and soil (seedling mix). The SAME exact thing progressing:
1) Growth slows/halts, then some yellowing along veins that appears in no specific pattern (not anything like zn deficiency etc..):
2) "Nuteburn" signs start to show (both in coco and soil)
3) New growth stops, each leaf from bottom to top starts drying up like a late-flower phosphorus deficiency:
I made a thread here for my last grow and all the suggestions I have been given I have ruled out.
Its NOT a pH problem...
I made a control group with plants being given pH'd water and plants being given pure water to see if it is the pH down agent I have been using on the coco was causing burn. I tried both canna ph- down and organic citrus. No change.
It's NOT nuteburn, it is happening both in soilless and soil,same water that was given to seedlings is burning them AFTER theyve grown up a bit (makes no sense) PLUS I've not been giving any goddamn nutes to begin with.
It's NOT a deficiency, no reason for anything to be goddamn deficient, this is happening on seedlings that still have fully green cotys, in soil or soilless, and pH IS correct.
It's NOT root disease, the roots are damn fine and white and healthy.
Any thoughts ?
I am really baffled here guys. If the water had anythign that might burn the plants it would clearly do so while the plants are young, and not when they get older ?
This is starting at exactly day 8-9.... Same pattern, this grow and the last...
My last thread is here: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=180247
Some pics from it, same exact thing that is happening right now:
Help would be much appreciated...
My bad, thought you were growing, in part in coco coir. I speak soil less much better.
Your growth halting at the same time is more likely due to a single problem. Your young plants are past seedling stage and beginning to need micros they didn't need as seedlings, at least not at present levels. A three week old, green plant starts to show defs at this point, depending on several possibilities.
You lack balanced levels of nutes.
You have a pH problem.
I know your seed starter has no nutes, I'll assume the same for Cana. If it's the nutritional source, please correct my assumption. Otherwise, you're plants are underfed (at this point.) unless......
Your pH is off. Whether you're growing organic and pH isn't a factor -or- reading your pH with a suspect device, I urge you to get a second opinion. The pics appear low pH and underfed.
Did you lime your mix? I've bought seed starter that tested as low as 5.2. It took two tablespoons of lime to grow past 2 or 3 weeks. It's fine for seedlings because you'll get NPK at 5.0. The trouble starts when you need Ca and Mg. You can't pour in enough 7+ pH solutions to make up for that kind of deficit.
So unless you're feeding and not mentioning:
Specific def patterns aren't always evident. However, several can be assumed from the picks. Just remember a K def looks like burn. It actually needs K. Same thing with advanced Mg def. You'll get burning from the tips. If you're feeding at this point, you wouldn't know if tip burn was associated with either, the control may be lost. However, if you haven't fed, tip burn is your Mg def.
So we've established you either need food, a pH check or both. The wrong pH can kill your plants. No nutes probably won't kill your plants, they'll just look like hell.
More reason to fill out the form. If there's no specific answer, leave it blank. Not so sure you're gaining from implicit symptom observations. Ease off that and establish pH first.
You need a runoff reading that's accurate. It's not as easy to get a pH reading as EC w/ salts. If you've got a digi-meter, good luck. Soil probes are bogus, at least Stitch's thread indicates. Drop kits are hard to read the runoff in new soil less.
So how are you getting a definitive pH reading? What you pour in changes according to what the mix is. The mix pH will trump whatever you pour in.
How much lime? If you're not using lime, then pouring in pH down, I'm surprised your roots aren't on fire.
: just kidding.With no lime, those two mediums would most likely need pH up. The problem is, nothing buffers your mix like dolomite lime. Liquid adjustments are for liquids. They may provide a window of adjustment for too little lime in the mix but not much.
Lime dem suckers.
I'd say pH & pH....did I mention pH? Give yourself a break. It'll give others a break to post your pH reading and the process.
Don't rely on generalizations, especially when you report the problem as the same every time. Time to shake some of those definitives and think outside the box.
Depending on the strain, it's possible to need nutes before the first week is out. Depleted nitrogen at seeding strength is tough to recover without the slightest burn. Speaking of burn, slight tip burn isn't any more than floor boarding a car. Back off nutes the slightest bit and you're fine, your plants are running at top speed. Slight tip burn won't hurt a bit as long as you ease up on the ferts.
Remember...
K (potassium) def - burn
It might appear yellow, tan or even brown before necrosis sets in. But even at the point of burn, it's a deficiency. Adding K won't correct the necrotic tissue but it'll halt the def signs. Along with water K helps to make plant cells rigid. Without K, those little respirator pores at the edge of the leaves "burn" from transpiration. They're exhaling plant toxins and burning the edge of the leaf. K keeps these respirator cells from dying.
Mg (magnesium) def - tip burn in advanced stages. More to read on this element than any other. It's the first sign of trouble, short of water stress and or weak cotyledons. As soon as your plant needs elevated levels of Mg, it will demand Mg in the form of fan leaf depletion if not getting Mg from the roots. First signs are tip fade, then uneven fade, then the petiole goes south, then the tip burns. You'll see the tale-tell signs of green veins with yellowing between the veins. You can also see what looks like N fade, complete gradual yellowing of the entire leaf. But a closer look or different light angle reveals splotchy fading, this would be Mg def.
All of this can happen within the first three weeks of a seedling's life. Very few get past this point without Mg def symptoms when the pH is below your target. IMO, I wouldn't go any lower than 6.4 in soil less. If you find bagged soil less with 6.4 or higher, I'd be interested in buying it.
Runoff pH and EC readings. Filling out the form would also help.
I might suggest reading the grow style/medium/organic? threads of interest, more than once. Stitch's sick plant thread is more than just recognizing visual symptoms. You can read it 5 times and still have a better understanding of the whole schpiel the 6th time around. Rep rating isn't definitive for some growers. Some of our newer members' knowledge transcends their posted rep.
...experiments, suggestions, tips already covered.
Your seedlings are asking for NPK. They're getting it from the cotyledons and or soil less. Even decaying soil less provides seedling level nutes, more precisely NPK. NPK is available as low as 5.0 pH. When your micro needs develop, your pH is too low for absorption. By this point, cotyledons are depleted in most cases and unferted seed mix won't release any Mg at un-limed pH levels.
These soil less mfgs market to all indoor plant needs. Gardenias like 5.0. They need Miracid as pH conditioner to thrive. Your Mj plants need lime as a conditioner or they'll act like finicky little runts before they die.
You're describing a Mg def in the old leaves. No telling what you're seeing in the new leaves. Could be an iron def or just a lighter shade of green in new tissue. It takes N and photosynthesis to render rich green tips throughout the new petiole, tip to axial.
Please point to the info that says defs follow the sequence you're looking for. Defs are identified by their locations on the petiole as much or less as color itself.
Zinc def is high pH, not likely in your case. It's similar to K def in priximity. But unlike k def, there's no necrosis. Chlorosis (fade) forms around the edge of the petiole. It's often yellow in color. First def I ever had as an indoor grower.
If your soil isn't pre ferted and you haven't introduced nutes, that's most likely advanced Mg def. If you've already fed, tip burn could be too much nutes.
Once a petiole goes south, it depends on which nute it's deficient as to how long it hangs on. N def might fade slowly or quickly. It takes a combination of dry soil or other defs to drop quickly. Mg def can send green leaves south from tissue variation more than typical, visual symptoms. But classic Mg def symptoms cannibalize leaves as fast as any single def. Maybe faster. If you're on the upper edge of too-low pH, you'll see the degenerative tissue effects of Mg def more so than green vein/yellow between symptoms. The leaf face will slowly transform from healthy to fractured (look old and unhealthy) and petiole tips curl under slightly. Fade sets in and days for this leaf are numbered.
Sounds like manifestation of terribly low pH. As soon as your plant needs anything more than NPK, it sucks it's own life force to death. Nothing coming from the roots except a little NPK, only thing left is to munch on itself, above-ground. The same elements the plant is looking to get from the roots already exist in the leaves. At this point, it's double-edge sword. Absorbing it's lower to feed it's upper. It grows itself out of gas and dies. This explains the slowing growth early on as it's getting weaker each day it doesn't receive micros from the roots.
D
Danny-boy777
Hey Cyber,
Any luck,Im super interested as I think we will all learn from this one.
In my country we say Eish! when something is F.U.BAR (f*#ked up beyond repair)
Eish!
Let us know.
Namaste
Any luck,Im super interested as I think we will all learn from this one.
In my country we say Eish! when something is F.U.BAR (f*#ked up beyond repair)
Eish!
Let us know.
Namaste
