Can you use hydro nutes in organic soil?

[Crush]

Hi,

I was wondering if it's possible to use hydro nutes in organic soil.

Like.. will it kill the micobacteria etc in the organic soil mix? I find the organic mix looses power after 45 day or so and needs additional feeding. Maybe i'm doing something wrong or my water isn't really de-chlorinating?

The reason I'm asking is because I have a bunch of nutes left over from a few years ago and would like to use to save some money. Things have been tight lately.

Let me know, thanks!

 

[bigwity]

i dunno what the experts say but i have used them and they were ok. nothing special but id rather use them than not. also there are so many different varietys they cant all be the same

 

[Phedrosbenny]

Yes you can use hydro (chem) nutes in organic soil.But ,yes, it will kill all the microbe life in the soil.Most people that use chem nutes in soil have to flush about once a month to prevent salt build up from the chems.If they dont it can eventually kill the plants.

If you want to use organics..go get some "Earthjuice" it isnt exspensive and works good.

Hope this helps...Good Luck with your garden.

 

[spurr]

Yes you can use hydro (chem) nutes in organic soil.But ,yes, it will kill all the microbe life in the soil.

That is an un-proven claim I am working on proving. Many microbes, just like plants, can/do use ions as 'food', thus adding chem ferts (ions) will not as a rule "kill all the microbe life in the soil." This claim is commonly found here and elsewhere in organic growing, and it's a false claim. I am not trying to dog on you, it's just something I see often repeated with no proof.

Microbes live their entire lives surrounded by ions in the rhizosphere and soil solution (thin layer of water surrounding media particles). They are surrounded by ions due to ion exudates by plant roots, microbial mineralization of organic matter and the microbial loop. Microbes increase the level of soluble ions. The key is not that *any* level of ions will kill microbes, that is false, it is *what* level of *each* element can hinder and or kill bacteria/archaea, fungi, protozoans and nematodes...not on a Genera or species basis, but on a Kingdom and Phylum basis because it's hard to identify microbes other than by Kingdom and Phylum without special equipment or specialized knowledge. Microbe Man would be the best source of info here on the topic of microbe identification.

I have been designing tests to use direct microscopic enumeration of microbes before and after adding chem ferts to aerated compost tea (see this link). And by using media extracts of biologically active media before and after application of chem ferts.

I know someone who claims Dr. Ingham wrote up to about 600 ppm of chem ferts is OK with microbes; ex. for hydro with aerated compost tea. But I doubt she wrote that, and besides, that says nothing about individual ppm level of individual elements. For example, AM fungi species proven to be symbiotic to cannabis are greatly hindered once P anion ppm exceeds about 30 ppm, but N levels can exceed 50 ppm and AM fungi are still happy (I didn't distinguish between ammonicial N and nitrate/nitrite N on purpose because I don't have that data on hand).

According to some reports (I think CTGuy can comment here) the present (or maybe past) world record holder for biggest pumpkin used a mix of conventional (hydro chems) and organics (aerated compost tea) to grow said ginormous pumpkin. I believe that the pumpkin was bigger than those grown with either conventional ferts alone or biological organics alone.

In terms of soil, in nature there is no way to separate chem salts (ions) from most microbes because microbes are the source of many ions via. organic matter mineralization and microbial loop.

 

[VerdantGreen]

ive read of a few quite experienced growers that claim mixing organic and chem will give excellent yields (the late silverback springs to mind). as spurr says im sure they dont kill the microbes outright at any level - its just finding the levels of chem that you can get away with i guess. not my scene though.

i would start at quarter strength.

otoh if your organic mix is running out of steam then topdressing some EWC or guano would also help, or channging your repot schedule.

VG

 

[spurr]

as spurr says im sure they dont kill the microbes outright at any level - its just finding the levels of chem that you can get away with i guess. not my scene though.

I agree 100%, not my scene either, but for the sake of scientific knowledge and advancement I am trying to collect data on this topic. I for one would not use a mix of both, but it's such a common claim I want to sort out fact from fiction.

i would start at quarter strength.

Again, I agree 100%.

otoh if your organic mix is running out of steam then topdressing some EWC or guano would also help, or channging your repot schedule.

VG

I concur, along with fish hydrolysate, kelp extract, seed meals, et al.

 

[PuReKnOwLeDgE]

One of my grows uses organic soil and chemical foxfarm tri packs. Everything comes out just fine.

 

[Phedrosbenny]

I agree 100%, not my scene either, but for the sake of scientific knowledge and advancement I am trying to collect data on this topic. I for one would not use a mix of both, but it's such a common claim I want to sort out fact from fiction.

Again, I agree 100%.

I concur, along with fish hydrolysate, kelp extract, seed meals, et al.

Not my scene either.And if its not proven it kills microbes...let me ask..is it proven that it doesnt?

I was just answering the guys question with what I have read and experienced.Maybe I could have answered it better...Alot of people do use them and say it works well.I dont know if its proven or not,But if you dont flush you run a chance of killing your plants.

If your gonna use chem nutes no since wasting the money for organic soil.Why would you?

 

[Phedrosbenny]

That is an un-proven claim I am working on proving. Many microbes, just like plants, can/do use ions as 'food', thus adding chem ferts (ions) will not as a rule "kill all the microbe life in the soil." This claim is commonly found here and elsewhere in organic growing, and it's a false claim. I am not trying to dog on you, it's just something I see often repeated with no proof.

Microbes live their entire lives surrounded by ions in the rhizosphere and soil solution (thin layer of water surrounding media particles). They are surrounded by ions due to ion exudates by plant roots, microbial mineralization of organic matter and the microbial loop. Microbes increase the level of soluble ions. The key is not that *any* level of ions will kill microbes, that is false, it is *what* level of *each* element can hinder and or kill bacteria/archaea, fungi, protozoans and nematodes...not on a Genera or species basis, but on a Kingdom and Phylum basis because it's hard to identify microbes other than by Kingdom and Phylum without special equipment or specialized knowledge. Microbe Man would be the best source of info here on the topic of microbe identification.

I have been designing tests to use direct microscopic enumeration of microbes before and after adding chem ferts to aerated compost tea (see this link). And by using media extracts of biologically active media before and after application of chem ferts.

I know someone who claims Dr. Ingham wrote up to about 600 ppm of chem ferts is OK with microbes; ex. for hydro with aerated compost tea. But I doubt she wrote that, and besides, that says nothing about individual ppm level of individual elements. For example, AM fungi species proven to be symbiotic to cannabis are greatly hindered once P anion ppm exceeds about 30 ppm, but N levels can exceed 50 ppm and AM fungi are still happy (I didn't distinguish between ammonicial N and nitrate/nitrite N on purpose because I don't have that data on hand).

According to some reports (I think CTGuy can comment here) the present (or maybe past) world record holder for biggest pumpkin used a mix of conventional (hydro chems) and organics (aerated compost tea) to grow said ginormous pumpkin. I believe that the pumpkin was bigger than those grown with either conventional ferts alone or biological organics alone.

In terms of soil, in nature there is no way to separate chem salts (ions) from most microbes because microbes are the source of many ions via. organic matter mineralization and microbial loop.

Do you have a grow?

 

[NUG-JUG]

i read on here or somewhere that cannabis is good at absorbing 'bad' compounds like heavy metals and radiation. that's why they planted hemp around Chernobyl. so since we're growing this special plant i think special care should be taken to keep it organic..so imo even if the microherd isn't killed off like spurr said, there are other issues to consider.

 

[spurr]

Not my scene either.And if its not proven it kills microbes...let me ask..is it proven that it doesnt?

Yes, ions are used in agar mixes and nutrient broth mixes in mycology and bacteriology. Did you need read everything what I wrote above? Many microbes can use ions as food. Many microbes can convert one form of ion into another form, ex. many fungi are good at ammonification and many bacteria are good at nitrification.

I was just answering the guys question with what I have read and experienced.Maybe I could have answered it better...Alot of people do use them and say it works well.I dont know if its proven or not,But if you dont flush you run a chance of killing your plants.

There is no validity to the claim that if you don't flush media you run the chance of killing your plants. Well, unless you provide so many ions that phytotoxicity sets in (ex. too much ammonium); or the plants are not able to take in water due to extreme amount of ions, say EC over 5. But, no one who grows cannabis would provide that many ions, and if they did they are insane. When I (rarely) grow with chems I *never* flush, the key is to understand how to use chem ferts and not overfeed. Even the people who do overfeed do not kill their plants.

If your gonna use chem nutes no since wasting the money for organic soil.Why would you?

Organic "soil" (really "soiless") is coco coir, s.peat moss, etc., etc. Thus most people use organic soilless media as a base, it's the addition of some chem fets as "starter" ferts to products such as Pro-Mix that makes them no longer organic.

 

[spurr]

Originally Posted by spurr
That is an un-proven claim I am working on proving. Many microbes, just like plants, can/do use ions as 'food', thus adding chem ferts (ions) will not as a rule "kill all the microbe life in the soil." This claim is commonly found here and elsewhere in organic growing, and it's a false claim. I am not trying to dog on you, it's just something I see often repeated with no proof.

Microbes live their entire lives surrounded by ions in the rhizosphere and soil solution (thin layer of water surrounding media particles). They are surrounded by ions due to ion exudates by plant roots, microbial mineralization of organic matter and the microbial loop. Microbes increase the level of soluble ions. The key is not that *any* level of ions will kill microbes, that is false, it is *what* level of *each* element can hinder and or kill bacteria/archaea, fungi, protozoans and nematodes...not on a Genera or species basis, but on a Kingdom and Phylum basis because it's hard to identify microbes other than by Kingdom and Phylum without special equipment or specialized knowledge. Microbe Man would be the best source of info here on the topic of microbe identification.

I have been designing tests to use direct microscopic enumeration of microbes before and after adding chem ferts to aerated compost tea (see this link). And by using media extracts of biologically active media before and after application of chem ferts.

I know someone who claims Dr. Ingham wrote up to about 600 ppm of chem ferts is OK with microbes; ex. for hydro with aerated compost tea. But I doubt she wrote that, and besides, that says nothing about individual ppm level of individual elements. For example, AM fungi species proven to be symbiotic to cannabis are greatly hindered once P anion ppm exceeds about 30 ppm, but N levels can exceed 50 ppm and AM fungi are still happy (I didn't distinguish between ammonicial N and nitrate/nitrite N on purpose because I don't have that data on hand).

According to some reports (I think CTGuy can comment here) the present (or maybe past) world record holder for biggest pumpkin used a mix of conventional (hydro chems) and organics (aerated compost tea) to grow said ginormous pumpkin. I believe that the pumpkin was bigger than those grown with either conventional ferts alone or biological organics alone.

In terms of soil, in nature there is no way to separate chem salts (ions) from most microbes because microbes are the source of many ions via. organic matter mineralization and microbial loop.

Do you have a grow?

Yes, did you read the link I gave you? I Hope you are not trying to use logical fallacy against me, such as Ad Hominem because using any logical fallacy is a major fail.

For info on what logical fallacies are (i.e. fallacious argument) see this site: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/index.html#index

 

[Phedrosbenny]

Yes, ions are used in agar mixes and nutrient broth mixes in mycology and bacteriology. Did you need read everything what I wrote above? Many microbes can use ions as food. Many microbes can convert one form of ion into another form, ex. many fungi are good at ammonification and many bacteria are good at nitrification.




There is no validity to the claim that if you don't flush media you run the chance of killing your plants. Well, unless you provide so many ions that phytotoxicity sets in (ex. too much ammonium); or the plants are not able to take in water due to extreme amount of ions, say EC over 5. But, no one who grows cannabis would provide that many ions, and if they did they are insane. When I (rarely) grow with chems I *never* flush, the key is to understand how to use chem ferts and not overfeed. Even the people who do overfeed do not kill their plants.



Organic "soil" (really "soiless") is coco coir, s.peat moss, etc., etc. Thus most people use organic soilless media as a base, it's the addition of some chem fets as "starter" ferts to products such as Pro-Mix that makes them no longer organic.

No.......the key is to flush the salts that is produced as a result of the chem (hydro) nutes as you call them.

Ask around it is common knowledge here.

Sounds like you want to argue...I shall depart here.

Why do we get these types all the time???? Somebody knows...lols

 

[spurr]

i read on here or somewhere that cannabis is good at absorbing 'bad' compounds like heavy metals and radiation. that's why they planted hemp around Chernobyl. so since we're growing this special plant i think special care should be taken to keep it organic..so imo even if the microherd isn't killed off like spurr said, there are other issues to consider.

I agree, however, many of the same ions that come from chem ferts are provided to the plant by microbes (with organics)...thus chem ferts is just a different than route than organics to the same end: providing ions to the plant.

That said, there are many other reasons (like you wrote) why one should use organics and not chem ferts.

 

[spurr]

No.......the key is to flush the salts that is produced as a result of the chem (hydro) nutes as you call them.

There is no need to flush if one does not over feed, that's my point: provide sufficient amount of ions (chem fets), not excess. If a grower gives suffeinct level of chem ferts there is no need to flush becuase (ion) building up is a non-issue.

Ask around it is common knowledge here.

Common knowledge around here, i.e., at all of ICmag (the organics section is an exception, there are lots of people here who know what is correct info), and at other cannabis forums is often wrong, sorry to say, but that's a fact.

Sounds like you want to argue...I shall depart here.

Not at all, but your question seemed loaded to me, it's often a question people ask because they plan to use Ad Hominem attacks. Most people are unaware they are using logical fallacies so I don't blame people that do until they are informed of the erroneous argument and still keep it up.

A very common fallacy is the "Argument from Authority", cannabis growers who write wrong info but are well known or have been growing for a very long time, or moderators or admins of forums love to use that fallacy.



If you were honestly wondering if I grew then I am sorry to have offended you...but your question set off alarm bells in my head as it's one of the most common ways people try to dispute a claim with a topic that has nothing to do with the claim being made.

Please see this info about Ad Hominem:

Description of Ad Hominem
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
3. Therefore A's claim is false.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).
Example of Ad Hominem

• Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong."
• Dave: "Of course you would say that, you're a priest."
• Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"
• Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say."

 

[Crush]

From what I understand, you are not supposed to flush organic soil through the entire grown right?

 

[Phedrosbenny]

You can...but alot of organic growers (including myself) dont.If I used chemical fertalizer instead of organic fertalizer in soil I would flush though.To prevent salt build up.

To be honest the guy could be right.I would still flush my plants out if I used chemical fertalizer.

 

[rasputin]

Why do we get these types all the time???? Somebody knows...lols

Probably for the same reasons we have some types answering questions when they admit it's not their 'scene' and still find reason to dispute others who offer contrasting opinions based on experience - they like to hear themselves talk. It's unfortunate how often this happens and it's those who ask questions and don't know who are done the disservice and it allows misinformation to spread.

I grow with organics, building soils and feeding nutrient teas derived from a variety of food sources, for the record. But I've seen some amazing grows on here where the grower uses a hybrid approach and none of them appear to be at any immediate risk of killing their plants or the microbes. Not to say some microbial colonies can't negatively affected by the addition of bottled nutes, but it seems highly productive and functional grows are accomplished using a combo of the two.

 

[spurr]

nvrmind, misread above post

 

[Phedrosbenny]

Probably for the same reasons we have some types answering questions when they admit it's not their 'scene' and still find reason to dispute others who offer contrasting opinions based on experience - they like to hear themselves talk. It's unfortunate how often this happens and it's those who ask questions and don't know who are done the disservice and it allows misinformation to spread.

I grow with organics, building soils and feeding nutrient teas derived from a variety of food sources, for the record. But I've seen some amazing grows on here where the grower uses a hybrid approach and none of them appear to be at any immediate risk of killing their plants or the microbes. Not to say some microbial colonies can't negatively affected by the addition of bottled nutes, but it seems highly productive and functional grows are accomplished using a combo of the two.

Thats not true man.Seems like maybe you didnt read the whole thread.Then again maybe you did.Im not a know it all or just talking to hear myself talk.

I grow with organics too,build my own soils,and use compost/nutrient teas to.I dont know everything about it.Lets say I would call myself a life long student.I have seen alot of people have very nice hybrid grows.Not my thing.To be honest I think it should be against the law to put nasty ass chemicals in the ground.I dont want to injest chems if I dont have to.But thats not what were talking about here.

Look maybe im wrong about salt build up in plants that are grown with chemical fertalizers and not flushed regularly killing them.It was allways my understanding that chems killed the microherd.I picked that info up here.Thats the way I have allways beleived and most of the organic growers atleast as far as I know think around those same lines.

And as far as what you quoted of mine....what I meant by that is that lately seems to be a increase in people that almost would rather argue when they come here.......Thats not me.I rather avoid that type of activity when it really doesnt serve any purpose other than the argument itself.