Strains in Jeopardy

[Mr Celsius]

Chefboy.....Well, since my name got mentioned...and not at all in a good way by you....a rather bold call out....perhaps I should take a moment of my time to attempt to enlighten you. I'm probably wasting my keystrokes...but I've a few minutes to entertain you.

Cinderella99 (original genetics created by Bros. Grimm) (a cubed version of Princess) has not been available from Bros. Grimm since they dissolved the co and went their separate ways. DGS was commissioned by Gypsy to return C99 to his private line-up...and DGS obliged by selecting parent stock from original Bros. Grimm seeds...this is the closest those who wish to have C99 in their garden can get, sans the very few people who might have stashed a pack or two from the original Bros Grimm release from over 7 years ago. So if what I did with C99 is considered watering it down by you....then you need to study up on marijuana botany.

I've had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Soul...and he's had the pleasure of toking on some C99 grown by me, with him giving his approval to the C99 genetics I originally started in 2003 as being representative of his and Sly's original creation....iow...proper selections were made that originated from their seeds.

DGS is soon to release DTC99 f2 for the same reason.....it's not available and has not been available from Bros. Grimm for about the same length of time as C99. DTC99 f2 is the first step being taken in a DTC99 preservation project by DGS.

Merlin's Magic I created from an unworked Acapulco Gold line from seeds obtained in Mexico....and I've made some interesting F1 hybrids along the way too...so if you think your opinion here literally taking a shite on me actually bothers me...it doesn't....but your lack of botanical knowledge is rather amusing.

When you have 4 yrs of college botany and horticultural science behind you, and have bothered to read Marijuana Botany a few times, I'll be happy to debate how utterly silly your first post is...until then, it's just an opinion from someone with less than a full understanding of the intricacies of genetics. Maybe you think Punnet Square is a place in Idaho?

In all seriousness, what I...or any breeder...does will never please everyone all of the time. Perhaps that's one reason why there are so many interesting flavors and improved combinations available today.

Please don't read what about to say the wrong way, cause some people could.

I don't agree with calling out peoples names; its very rude and unprofessional.

I think I understand what Chef is trying to say. Some breeders will use genetics that are extremely popular, while other breeders will make genetics popular. Neither is worse or better then the other IMHO. From his point of view (I think), he sees the breeder who uses popular genetics as "watering-down" those genetics and making them less from their original state.

I see "watering-down"... can we use a different term? Its so derogatory. How about evolving?

I see evolving genetics from a good point of view and conditionally bad point of view. Generally, its good. We see evolved strains that have some of the great characteristics of the past, with new traits to accentuate and enhance those old flavors. The conditionally bad thing is: when a breeder stops making a favorite and the only thing that is left is crosses, we lose something forever.

Again, no judgments. I just want to attempt to bring some clarity to both sides.

Also, I'm no breeder and definitely not an expert, but I have read "The Cannabis Breeder's Bible: The Definitive Guide to Marijuana Genetics, Cannabis Botany and Creating Strains for the Seed Market". I liked it and learned a lot.

 

[Ur Humbl Nr8tor]

Interesting thread. Most of all the marijuana and seeds produced today are hybridized. This is not so different from the way it was in 1984 when I got my first seed catalog. So in the past 25 years, we've seen a continued evolution of hybrid marijuana. This evolution has seen 20+% THC, countless aromas, flavors, structures. Insane yields and trichome coverage, etc. Diluted is not the word I would use. In many cases, bottle necked may be a nicer way to describe it.

Having said that, there has been a serious decline in land race strains with many lost to 'dilution' through hybridization. Did that hybridization make the plant less productive, potent, reproducible? No, quite the opposite. Could you ever get the 'original' land race back? No, quite the opposite.

So, I can see both sides of the coin and can say that it is good to have breeders like DG working on producing awesome hybrid strains. And it is necessary to have folks like Ace collective and Cannobiogen working with land race genetics, to preserve cannabis heritage. The only disappointment I have today is that this conservation effort was not in full force 25+ years ago. The genetic possibilities, would have been endless.

Breed diversity!

 

[Blue]

I understand what Cheif boy is saying & I understand that you DG have knowledge of exactly what you are doing, like your self I have read MJ botany many many many times infact it was my toilet book for two years!!! too much info??

I would agree with chief in saying there are too many flavour of the month hacks out there just chucking pollen like there is no tomorrow all in ade of getting as much $$$$ as they can while the "name" is hot.

As for C99 it has never been in danger of going off the radar really has it, let's be honest here. You have stock from their orignal gear so do many others. TBH we got sick of C99 & all the crosses that go along with it. Not to say it's not good gear as it is.

As for the DTC99 now that is something that not everyone can get their hands on, same as your LUI13 which we purchased & it's fucking awsome thank you very much. And I say kudos to you for breeding/bringing back these lines.

But I am also in the camp that not enough is being done to preserve good stable old skool lines or in fact creating new strains from Landrace genes. The market is flooded with crosses of crosses with very little difference in the end product down to poor breeding practice, again this is down to the clamber for $$$$. Not all breeders/banks are poor but we have noticed in the last 5 years that more & more seed we buy is below par.

We love our land race gear that we collected while on tour & crossing it to other stable strains we find from other breeders. But as I say it's getting harder & harder to find good gear. people like CLS, ACE have given us some real gems.

As you say horses for courses.
Keep doing what you do as we liked it & so do many others.

 

[THE PABLOS]

...Breed whatever you want and....relax. Smoke more pot or something. EVO or DEVO.....it matters not. All the degrees in the world...all the plants...all the potential...matter not. It will do what it do....beyond human conceit.

 

[Cranberry]

Ur Humbl Nr8tor: Right on!

I still feel sad about the seeds I stole from my father as a kid. That year I saw plants that I have never seen again. Not in the bibles or magazines, what a bad thing I did.

A DNA data base is what we need. We have the ability today to do this. This way we can see the lines and traits, keeping true in our lines.

 

[Mad.Dapper]

This is why I have been working with exclusive landrace genetics for some time now. Its very important to preserve these landrace varieties in their pure form, and continue to make seeds. Ppl dont realize what they are doing to the scene by growing a breeding only the latest hyped genetics. Sure some are great strains, but would u like to only have these genetics available for the future growers and breeders of our world?

Here is just some of the genetics i Work to preserve.

Nepalese Highland
Purple Pakistan
Chiskei
Oaxacan Mexican
Chocolate thai
viet dalat
Afghan
Swazi
PURE durban

 

[Mad.Dapper]

Who cares if these older strains are not around anymore. We have something that is a multitude better. Clone only strains. Grow out a Green Crack cutting and you might not be so synical. If you think it's all the same, go any buy some DJ short seeds, and you'll smoke some bud that's nothing like anything you've ever had. Not saying that it's better, just unique.

Blue Dream? FANTASTIC! Grandad Purple? WTF??? Is that weeeeed? Then there's all of the Deisels, a little overplayed, but still fantastic in the mix. Try mixing your favorites together, there's always something new to try there, it's like jelly bellies.

Me thinks another pot snob has been born. Possibly you should take a break so that you appreciate this fucking awesome plant we like to share so much.

I also grow the green crack and many other "clone onlys" I have to say I I will always have my Nepalese, paki, afghan, mex, viet genetics in my garden. The same is not true for the Green Crack. Tho its a great cut, its just not THAT great. Not too mention i personally know atleast 2 dozen ppl running her, the same isnt true for the landrace pure genetics.

These are the keystones that brought us these current clone onlys. If all the landrace and pure strains were gone, how could we ever get back to where we started, and create these strains we know today. Its just as important if no MORE to preserve and save these genetics for the future growers and breeders.
Props to ace, cannabio, tropical seeds, and many others out there preserving landrace varieties. U dont get enough credit for what u do. One day all will realize the importance of the role we play.

 

[THE PABLOS]

...ACE makes hybrids....some are "landrace"....just as many are hybrid. I enjoy their work...with total respect.

 

[GET MO]

i think my favoprite smoke now green cross.... its a cross of trainwreck and green crack, and its a one of a kind smoke thats better than both of them. So the evolution is for the better in this case. Evolution also makes things less suseptible to desease.... I go back to people.... i have an indian partner with diabetes, his mom also has diabetes, but his brother who is half japnese does not have diabetes, n drinks more alcohol than a lot of people i know... also got a black friend who has sicle cell, but since his kids are half white the doctors say that they have no risk for the condition. evolution is for the greater good i tell ya.... i still want some malawi gold tho...

 

[Gypsy Nirvana]

Landrace genetics get changed over the years/centuries anyway by growers introducing new and improved varieties to get better yeilds, more pest resistance, shorter flowering times..e.t.c.

What was supposedly 'Pure' Columbian Gold in the 70's was not the same as it was 20 years before that....and what is called 'Columbian Gold' today is not the same as it was in the 70's...most probably it has been worked and improved upon
Seeds are usually kept from the best plants for the following season.....

So cannabis is in a constant state of improvement........by not being diluted, but by being concentrated....IMHO

We are seeing more potent, shorter flowering (even autoflowering) varieties these days than ever was years ago, due to a multitude of breeders taking the time to work these lines....and produce seedlots...

You have to realize also that breeders constantly get busted or move on and for one reason or another actually loose/discard their parent stock........and the only way to get close as to recreating their strains/varieties is if someone else takes it upon themselves to try and do the work required as in what DG is doing with the Grimm's DTC99.....from the original strain/variety by growing out as many seeds from the originals as possible and making good selections to work with....and so producing a new seedlot as close to the originals as is possible...

Seedlots made at one time or another sell out and maybe that breeder won't or can't make that line again....

There are many of us out there that collect landrace varieties from certain periods in history from many remote areas of the world and keep these seeds for future growers/breeders and ourselves to work with.....

I have in my time done alot of collecting and distributing to those that wish to grow something from certain areas of the globe.......and many of them make seeds from these themselves......and that is a form of preservation in itself...

 

[Dutchgrown]

As usual, well said Gypsy.

Let's touch a bit further on hybridization.

Without hybridization many strains we love and enjoy would not exist. There would be no Neville's Haze....no Super Silver Haze....no AK47, no Warlock, no Mango Haze, no Sensi Star, no Killer Queen, no Apollo 11, no Blueberry, no LUI, no White Widow, no Sugar Loaf, no Destroyer, or other countless varieties created as a result of selective breeding projects.

While it is great that there are some breeders who elect to focus on unhybridized strains, there are also those who have a keen eye for making parental selections and who create many interesting and ever increasingly potent hybrids, with various refinements made along the way.

I look at myself, and other professional breeders as artists, each placing their own unique 'brush stroke' in combining parental lines that is seen in complimentary ways in the resulting progeny. To say one is better than the other, or that one has more relevance than the other is simply not correct...thus why the opening post to this thread is just plain wrong, specifically use of the words watered down.

To allude that refinements and improvements made through selective breeding are equal to, or synonymous, with dilution is not accurate.

To say that some 'novice seed makers' throw some pollen at a female plant without proper forethought and selection skills is another matter altogether and one that I would relate as being appropriate to the dilution mindset in the first post.

 

[oldpink]

progress through evoloution

progress through evoloution

to the OP
in that case we should all drive model T fords as it the base for all cars
progress through innovation is the key and leads us to a better place
genetic diversity is life its self, reproduce the same thing it will fail
life is an ongoing struggle to procreate and diversify and why life goes on

you want to restrict nature go ahead, nature has a way of getting around any barriers
we try to put in her place
landraces will evolve regardless of your interference they take millions of years to establish not something you can change in a human lifetime

 

[Weird]

the real fear that threatens marijuana diversity is the breeding for traits that fatten the pocket

bigger faster most stealth plants that auto flower and auto sex and have muted attributes to avoid detection, the dominance of these traits in breeding selection usually comes at the cost of other desirable traits

 

[Weird]

to the OP
in that case we should all drive model T fords as it the base for all cars
progress through innovation is the key and leads us to a better place
genetic diversity is life its self, reproduce the same thing it will fail
life is an ongoing struggle to procreate and diversify and why life goes on

you want to restrict nature go ahead, nature has a way of getting around any barriers
we try to put in her place
landraces will evolve regardless of your interference they take millions of years to establish not something you can change in a human lifetime

^^^^ certain land races are threatened by the indigenous populations

i think both in mexico and Jamaica many land races have experienced the introduction of hybrids

 

[BlackBart]

I been growing and breeding for forty years and believe its a numbers game and I'm sure anyone who breeds will agree . You can have quality genetics and completely ruin them by poor selections by not having enough numbers to choose from .

 

[The Phoenix]

For a long time, many of us have dreamed of obtaining the varieties that are available on Seedbay/Seedboo today. Not long ago many of the varieties were difficult to get unless you knew someone. Now I can just order them up on the internet, and they appear in my mailbox within 2 weeks.

Hats off to Gypsy for having the most deversified seed selection around, with the worlds top breeders. Even the oppertunity to sample private breeders wares if we so desire.

IMO each person has their own tastes for what they like. The economy right now is slowing my ability to sample all the outstanding varieties available today.

 

[Massproducer]

While I understand where some are coming from, the problem is that a breeder is not the holder / preserver of cannabis as a plant, they are breeders, they are in business, and all businesses are dictated by the market in which they operate. In fact in most of agri-culture, hierlooms are preserved by families or farmers and not really by the breeders. Not everyone wants to grow Landrace's or even IBL's, for that matter. When it really comes down to it Landrace's are part of a niche market and for everyone to stop hybridizing cannabis would not help the plant as a whole IMHO, as the evolution of the species would essentially stop. IMHO, a better place to focus on is breeding practices and selection. My question too some of those complaining is: What exactly have you done to preserve YOUR beloved genetics??? Its kind of like the dude that complains about our current political situation but then forgets to "vote". To each is their own.

Flame me if you'd like, lol...
Take care
Mass

 

[igrowone]

i think that's a very good point Massproducer
following up that line of thought, the real losses are 'on the ground'
the traditional outdoor MJ growers are replacing the local landrace genetics they used to use, with the more popular commercial genetics
it's a simple business decision, they make more with newer strains
Mexico has to be the classic example of this, i don't buy bag weed anymore but from what i read there's a lot of mexican indica in today's bagweed

 

[VIKINGtrich]

IMO, Hybrids are great! Evolution is a good thing as well. We all must evolve to grow, and Knowing is Half The Battle! -G.I. JOE!

 

[JOJO420]

If anything is watered down....it is mind sets.

so so true. If It looks good n smells good , it must be good,lol newb mindset for sure, but prevalent in our community none the less.
Big ups to those that take on the project of furthuring cannabis genetically. We are few and far in between. Most of these responses, not all, have come from obvious GROWERS, not BREEDERS. Their is a difference. Don't hate on what you don't understand.
I believe and have reason to believe that a lot of land race genetics are being preserved as we speak. So no worries, be happy.