-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
passive plant killer
- Thread starter delta9nxs
- Start date
jjfoo,
Either I misunderstand your most recent posts, or you've made a mistake. The Jacks Hydroponic plus Cal-Nit feeding ratios is based not on matching the weight of dry nutes, but by matching the dry volume.
Listen to me... like I know. I still haven't ordered it.
That said, D9 is back to feeding the same ratio throughout feeding (i.e. 3-1-4ish) but may be feeding at different concentrations between flower and veg to address consequences of his defoliation experimentation. Between the two of our posts, he'll probably be able to clarify.
Either I misunderstand your most recent posts, or you've made a mistake. The Jacks Hydroponic plus Cal-Nit feeding ratios is based not on matching the weight of dry nutes, but by matching the dry volume.
Listen to me... like I know. I still haven't ordered it.
That said, D9 is back to feeding the same ratio throughout feeding (i.e. 3-1-4ish) but may be feeding at different concentrations between flower and veg to address consequences of his defoliation experimentation. Between the two of our posts, he'll probably be able to clarify.
now i'm confused!
let's start over.
by volume, you mix equal parts. their instructions say to use 1 tsp of each per gallon of water to reach ec 2.1. the problem you run into here is that you are limited by the measuring tools. a teaspoon of each gets ec 2.1 so 1/2 tsp will get you ec 1.05. to get close to ec 1.5 you would have to use a 1/2 tsp and a 1/4 tsp. this would actually get you ec 1.58.
by weight, using a gram scale, digital or not, you would use 3.69 grams of jack's and 2.55 grams of calcium nitrate per gallon to achieve ec 2.1. the problem here is that most small gram scales don't read in hundreds.
jjfoo, please notice that with both these methods i am not talking about any nutrient ratios here. they are inherently correct.
both the above methods require that you know the exact volume of water. the last way to mix allows fast, easy mixing with any amount of water.
by meter, my preferred method, you take any amount of water, add jack's until you hit your target, which if you are trying to achieve ec 2.1, is ec 1.26 jack's. it follows logically that the balance of the mix, comprised of calcium nitrate, is ec .84. we know this because ec 1.26 + ec .84 = 2.1. please notice that 1.26/.84 is the 1/.67 ratio.
this means that you can use the 1/.67 ratio to mix any strength you want by meter.
the problem here is that you may not want ec 2.1. you may want ec 1.5.
for example lets say you want ec 1.5. this is really easy with an ec meter because the numbers come out evenly, in 10ths. if your dose calculation comes out in hundreds you will have to round them to the closest 10th. or use the ppm function.
you would mix ec .9 jack's and ec .6 calcium nitrate to get ec 1.5. .9/.6 is the 1/.67 ratio again.
jjfoo, you have a nice meter. i would not even consider mixing any way but by meter.
i like to start fresh mixing in a clean container and then dumping it into my system.
always mix in the jack's first and calcium nitrate last. you really should not need magnesium sulfate with jack's as it is 6.38 %.
i hope we have cleared up any confusion.
i'm editing this real fast to say that i think you mentioned mixing a stronger solution and then cutting it back to a working strength. i think this is a bad idea because of the possibility of precipitation.
mix jack's to target first. if you overshoot your target add more water now to correct it before you add the calcium nitrate. if you overshoot a little on the calcium nitrate just add a little more water to correct your overall dose.
also, i'm back to using ec 1.8 in both systems. this let's me link the bulk containers and go a week without mixing.
d9
let's start over.
by volume, you mix equal parts. their instructions say to use 1 tsp of each per gallon of water to reach ec 2.1. the problem you run into here is that you are limited by the measuring tools. a teaspoon of each gets ec 2.1 so 1/2 tsp will get you ec 1.05. to get close to ec 1.5 you would have to use a 1/2 tsp and a 1/4 tsp. this would actually get you ec 1.58.
by weight, using a gram scale, digital or not, you would use 3.69 grams of jack's and 2.55 grams of calcium nitrate per gallon to achieve ec 2.1. the problem here is that most small gram scales don't read in hundreds.
jjfoo, please notice that with both these methods i am not talking about any nutrient ratios here. they are inherently correct.
both the above methods require that you know the exact volume of water. the last way to mix allows fast, easy mixing with any amount of water.
by meter, my preferred method, you take any amount of water, add jack's until you hit your target, which if you are trying to achieve ec 2.1, is ec 1.26 jack's. it follows logically that the balance of the mix, comprised of calcium nitrate, is ec .84. we know this because ec 1.26 + ec .84 = 2.1. please notice that 1.26/.84 is the 1/.67 ratio.
this means that you can use the 1/.67 ratio to mix any strength you want by meter.
the problem here is that you may not want ec 2.1. you may want ec 1.5.
for example lets say you want ec 1.5. this is really easy with an ec meter because the numbers come out evenly, in 10ths. if your dose calculation comes out in hundreds you will have to round them to the closest 10th. or use the ppm function.
you would mix ec .9 jack's and ec .6 calcium nitrate to get ec 1.5. .9/.6 is the 1/.67 ratio again.
jjfoo, you have a nice meter. i would not even consider mixing any way but by meter.
i like to start fresh mixing in a clean container and then dumping it into my system.
always mix in the jack's first and calcium nitrate last. you really should not need magnesium sulfate with jack's as it is 6.38 %.
i hope we have cleared up any confusion.
i'm editing this real fast to say that i think you mentioned mixing a stronger solution and then cutting it back to a working strength. i think this is a bad idea because of the possibility of precipitation.
mix jack's to target first. if you overshoot your target add more water now to correct it before you add the calcium nitrate. if you overshoot a little on the calcium nitrate just add a little more water to correct your overall dose.
also, i'm back to using ec 1.8 in both systems. this let's me link the bulk containers and go a week without mixing.
d9
#s...
#s...
jax 5-12-26 hidr0 special*
n-5% (49ppm)
p-12% (p2O5x 0.437=actual p) (51ppm)
k-26% (k2O x 0.83 = actual k) (210ppm)
mg-6.3% (62ppm)
s-8.21% (80ppm)
fe-.3% (2.9ppm)
cu-.01% (.14ppm)
mo-.01% (.009ppm)
mn-.05% (.48ppm)
zn-.015% (.14ppm)
b- .05% (.48ppm)
jakz cal-nit 15.5-0-0-18*
n-15.5% (100ppm)
ca-18% (116ppm)
*(above ppms from rates per jacks intructions 1 & 3, below -->)
simple #'s...
1000 gallon reservoir = 1000/1000 = 1
130*28.35 = 3685.5 round to 3685
86*28.35 = 2438.1 round to 2438
to make 1 gallon of nutrient solution, gardener,
a.
1.
fill 1 gallon jug w/ water
+
2.
add 3.685 grams (round to 3.7) jaks
+
3.
add 2.438 g (round to 2.4) ca-nitr8
= 671 estimated total ppms (*see top for indv. elemental ppms)
for 5 gallons,
b.
1.
18.4g jaks
+
2.
12.2g ca-n
=
671 total ppms...(stir well)
using simple teaspoon (5g) & tablespoon (15g) measurment, for 5 gallons,
c
1.
20g jaks (1 tbsp + 1 tsp)
2.
15g ca-n (1 tbsp)
= 760 total estimated ppms
or, for ~1000ppm (~1.5 ec wand-type meter), add to 5 gallons of water,
d
1.
30g (2 tbsp) jax hidr0
+
2.
15g (1 tbsp) ca-n
= 1007 estimated total ppms
@
n-202
p-83
k-342
mg-100
s-130
fe-4.75
or...
e
1.
20g jax (1 tbsp + 1 tsp)
+
2.
10g ca-n (2 tsp)
=
671 total estimated ppms
note that a, b, & e all have total estimated ppms of 671...
a & e have similar ratios. the ratio per jaks instructions of 130+86/1000 are listed next to the guaranteed analysis, at top.
below, find the #s for the 2-1 ratio (jaks/ca-n), listed directly above, in e,
n-135
p-55
k-228
mg-67
s-87
ca-95
fe-3.1
roughly the same profile as the instructions, just simple method to measure:
4 tsp jax + 2 tsp ca-n / 5 gallons water = 671 ppms...
f.
k-silicate...
adding additional silica, @ k-si of 3%-7.8%, @ 2.5ml (1/2 tsp) per gallon (12.5ml/5gal), provides,
k-16
si-51.51
*same rate can be applied as foliar spray. adding surfacant, ++...
**k-si increases ph in solution. check ph before + after, stir, let settle, check again. adjust to desired ph... 6.2+ ph ok for foliar...
g.
gh kuul bluum (dri) 2-45-28-1-1.5
additional phosphorus before flower start may help stretch (elongation), to increase nodes/flower sites...
usually applied for 'ripening' but can be applied thru-out season...
nh4+ type nitrogen also good as a buffer in solution, maybe...
adding only 1g/1gal, or total of 5g (1 tsp) to 5gals of solution, provides,
n- 5ppm (100% nh4+)
p-52ppm
k-61
mg-3
s-4
^^ data for very simple application of water solubles. w/ room for +/- of this/that. only liquid is k-si...
hope this help
#s...
jax 5-12-26 hidr0 special*
n-5% (49ppm)
p-12% (p2O5x 0.437=actual p) (51ppm)
k-26% (k2O x 0.83 = actual k) (210ppm)
mg-6.3% (62ppm)
s-8.21% (80ppm)
fe-.3% (2.9ppm)
cu-.01% (.14ppm)
mo-.01% (.009ppm)
mn-.05% (.48ppm)
zn-.015% (.14ppm)
b- .05% (.48ppm)
jakz cal-nit 15.5-0-0-18*
n-15.5% (100ppm)
ca-18% (116ppm)
*(above ppms from rates per jacks intructions 1 & 3, below -->)
(@ delta9nxs... the #'s for sulfur may not be accurate. using the instructions, 130oz of jacks 5-12-26 into 1000 gallons of water provides 80ppms of sulfur, not 246. *originally posted @ #352, this thred. )
simple #'s...
1000 gallon reservoir = 1000/1000 = 1
130*28.35 = 3685.5 round to 3685
86*28.35 = 2438.1 round to 2438
to make 1 gallon of nutrient solution, gardener,
a.
1.
fill 1 gallon jug w/ water
+
2.
add 3.685 grams (round to 3.7) jaks
+
3.
add 2.438 g (round to 2.4) ca-nitr8
= 671 estimated total ppms (*see top for indv. elemental ppms)
for 5 gallons,
b.
1.
18.4g jaks
+
2.
12.2g ca-n
=
671 total ppms...(stir well)
using simple teaspoon (5g) & tablespoon (15g) measurment, for 5 gallons,
c
1.
20g jaks (1 tbsp + 1 tsp)
2.
15g ca-n (1 tbsp)
= 760 total estimated ppms
or, for ~1000ppm (~1.5 ec wand-type meter), add to 5 gallons of water,
d
1.
30g (2 tbsp) jax hidr0
+
2.
15g (1 tbsp) ca-n
= 1007 estimated total ppms
@
n-202
p-83
k-342
mg-100
s-130
fe-4.75
or...
e
1.
20g jax (1 tbsp + 1 tsp)
+
2.
10g ca-n (2 tsp)
=
671 total estimated ppms
note that a, b, & e all have total estimated ppms of 671...
a & e have similar ratios. the ratio per jaks instructions of 130+86/1000 are listed next to the guaranteed analysis, at top.
below, find the #s for the 2-1 ratio (jaks/ca-n), listed directly above, in e,
n-135
p-55
k-228
mg-67
s-87
ca-95
fe-3.1
roughly the same profile as the instructions, just simple method to measure:
4 tsp jax + 2 tsp ca-n / 5 gallons water = 671 ppms...
f.
k-silicate...
adding additional silica, @ k-si of 3%-7.8%, @ 2.5ml (1/2 tsp) per gallon (12.5ml/5gal), provides,
k-16
si-51.51
*same rate can be applied as foliar spray. adding surfacant, ++...
**k-si increases ph in solution. check ph before + after, stir, let settle, check again. adjust to desired ph... 6.2+ ph ok for foliar...
g.
gh kuul bluum (dri) 2-45-28-1-1.5
additional phosphorus before flower start may help stretch (elongation), to increase nodes/flower sites...
usually applied for 'ripening' but can be applied thru-out season...
nh4+ type nitrogen also good as a buffer in solution, maybe...
adding only 1g/1gal, or total of 5g (1 tsp) to 5gals of solution, provides,
n- 5ppm (100% nh4+)
p-52ppm
k-61
mg-3
s-4
^^ data for very simple application of water solubles. w/ room for +/- of this/that. only liquid is k-si...
hope this help
Last edited:
Seattles_Finest
New member
Wow, I've been slowly reading all the pages of this thread and have to say I'm really impressed at not only the method but the amazing results. Is there a way to do this on a smaller scale, granted it would require more maintenance but I only have a small area to work with....
Even if I don't end up using some/all of this theory, thank you. I can tell you've helped many growers and probably will be back here often to ask questions
Even if I don't end up using some/all of this theory, thank you. I can tell you've helped many growers and probably will be back here often to ask questions
S
SCROG McDuck
Hello D9.. yes.. 'knipple'.. my wife still cringes when she hears that.. HAHA!!
It has taken me this time since that post (with a week of vacation in between)
to read thru this post to this point.. and can understan most of
where y'all are going with this... I'm not much on math..
What a learning aid!
I've started collecting the bits I need to gow with your ppk
practices.. Jacks on order, pails purchased.. coco this week at the
local hydro store... my DWC grows will finish in Oct & Nov...
I must rearrange the half of my 10'x12' room avalilible to me
so I can make better use of the space..
I figure mid Nov I'm PPKing.
5 gal pail on top of 3.5 gallon pail with 3.5 controll rez..
and 6.5 gallon volume tank (later bigger) I like air into the root ball..
I'm thinking the volume tank on top of the controll rez
with a tail piece vis-a-vi the media wick (without the media).. removing the float valve in the controll rez....
operating like a water cooler...
I'm not sure of the principle it is called. Air pressure??!
What do you think?/
And why is it that you do not cover the 5 gallon pail? Mold?!
S
SCROG McDuck
I'm with you pete.. Oakton ph2.. $56...
Most Ph probe replacement probes usually cost $40-$65...
I have 2.. and when the older one 'gets crazy' (it's almost two years old) Ill throw it away and buy another new one.. not just a probe.
S
SCROG McDuck
I hope you do not mind my reposting of your post #171 and 3-5 after, depicting your early ppks and their construction 'pictures',
as well as your apt descriptions..
Many will start at the end and read backwards.. these pics are worth keeping at the end of the thread as well as at the begining...
Great work.. D9 and all of you..
I hope it puts up those first pics!??
Nope! I tried.. go there good stuff.. #171 page 12..
hey, scrog! don't build that first design, it's unnecessarily overbuilt. this is what i'm using now and i believe that if you use a pulse system you can use a 3.5 gal bucket for the top grow container also and still get the same results.
all my containers have tops on them in operation. this is the control, pump, individual plant reservoirs and the volume reservoirs. this helps to minimize evaporation, which keeps the nutrient solution more stable, and keeps crap and bugs out.
let me know if i can help.
d9
all my containers have tops on them in operation. this is the control, pump, individual plant reservoirs and the volume reservoirs. this helps to minimize evaporation, which keeps the nutrient solution more stable, and keeps crap and bugs out.
let me know if i can help.
d9
Last edited:
S
SCROG McDuck
I was getting around to the 3.5s on top..
if that is good>>>
then the 3.5 stacks/fits perfectly inside the 5 gallon pail..
the bottom of the 3.5 protrudes 7.5 inches into the 5 gallon pail.. with a rez depth of 4.5 inches, leaves 1.5inch air gap...
It's a little shorter than 2, 3.5 gallon pails stacked
Drilling (or whatever) air pruning holes (or whatever) in the 3.5GP
would then put the root zone inside the rez..kinda. humidity.
Would be good for limited head room.. 'small trees'
You have already helped..
it will be months before I finish reading your thread completely..
Mistress, cactus, ImaginaryFriend and the rest have much more for me to read in to, also...
an implementing...
S
SCROG McDuck
I think we should come to an agreement here. If I measure 3.0 grams of each into equal amounts of water I get the same EC.
If you are right and I am wrong, then I must of done something wrong. I'd really like to know if I am doing something wrong...
I'm observing equal weights give equal EC to equal volumes of water, can anyone reconfirm if this is correct?
jjfoo:
EDIT: I AM TALKING OUT MY ASS HERE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT SHIPS FROM JRPETERS. BECAUSE I HAVE NO FOLLOW THROUGH AND HAVE NOT ORDERED IT.
You are using 'yara calcnit'.
You cannot use a volume or mass calculation based on the instructions that accompany Jack's hydro.
EDIT: I AM TALKING OUT MY ASS HERE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT SHIPS FROM JRPETERS. BECAUSE I HAVE NO FOLLOW THROUGH AND HAVE NOT ORDERED IT.
Jack's calnit has a filler in it, so that you can conveniently use equal volumes of Jacks and their accompanying calnit to mix to the 1:.67 ratio.
You did not purchase the JRPETERS calnit, you don't have the fillers, so discussions of volume or mass are irrelevant in your case.
EDIT: I AM TALKING OUT MY ASS HERE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT SHIPS FROM JRPETERS. BECAUSE I HAVE NO FOLLOW THROUGH AND HAVE NOT ORDERED IT.
You need to use EC calculations.
D9 has drafted you a lengthy post on the previous page. Scroll to #904 and read his instructions based on mixing using a EC meter.
Or, spoon-fed, D9 post 904:
1. Take any quantity of water.
2. Add in Jacks until your EC meter reads 1.26 (plus initial RO EC)
3. Add in Calcium Nitrate until your meter reads a total of 2.1 (plus initial RO EC)
You now have achieved the recommended concentration of Jacks as presented on the label.
If you wish to run a lighter concentration, say EC 1.8, divide 1.8 by 2.1 and multiply that by multiply 1.26. Bring your EC up to that value with Jacks, and then top it off with Calcium Nitrate to your desired EC...
EDIT: I AM TALKING OUT MY ASS HERE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT SHIPS FROM JRPETERS. BECAUSE I HAVE NO FOLLOW THROUGH AND HAVE NOT ORDERED IT.
You are using 'yara calcnit'.
You cannot use a volume or mass calculation based on the instructions that accompany Jack's hydro.
EDIT: I AM TALKING OUT MY ASS HERE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT SHIPS FROM JRPETERS. BECAUSE I HAVE NO FOLLOW THROUGH AND HAVE NOT ORDERED IT.
Jack's calnit has a filler in it, so that you can conveniently use equal volumes of Jacks and their accompanying calnit to mix to the 1:.67 ratio.
You did not purchase the JRPETERS calnit, you don't have the fillers, so discussions of volume or mass are irrelevant in your case.
EDIT: I AM TALKING OUT MY ASS HERE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT SHIPS FROM JRPETERS. BECAUSE I HAVE NO FOLLOW THROUGH AND HAVE NOT ORDERED IT.
You need to use EC calculations.
D9 has drafted you a lengthy post on the previous page. Scroll to #904 and read his instructions based on mixing using a EC meter.
Or, spoon-fed, D9 post 904:
Or in my words:
1. Take any quantity of water.
2. Add in Jacks until your EC meter reads 1.26 (plus initial RO EC)
3. Add in Calcium Nitrate until your meter reads a total of 2.1 (plus initial RO EC)
You now have achieved the recommended concentration of Jacks as presented on the label.
If you wish to run a lighter concentration, say EC 1.8, divide 1.8 by 2.1 and multiply that by multiply 1.26. Bring your EC up to that value with Jacks, and then top it off with Calcium Nitrate to your desired EC...
imag fr,
I have measured equal weights of each into equal amounts of water and get the same EC, so I don't know what you mean about not being able to use the mass measurements. Once again I'm confused. I'm confirming all my stuff with an EC meter to make sure I'm at .67 cal nitrate to my jacks.
Maybe the cal nit from peters and yara are the same
seems like cal nit should be something that is standard and predictable
I have measured equal weights of each into equal amounts of water and get the same EC, so I don't know what you mean about not being able to use the mass measurements. Once again I'm confused. I'm confirming all my stuff with an EC meter to make sure I'm at .67 cal nitrate to my jacks.
Maybe the cal nit from peters and yara are the same
seems like cal nit should be something that is standard and predictable
hey, jjfoo, good morning!
first of all, all calcinit in this dry granular form is basically the same, 15.5-0-0-19. i personally am using the yara brand just like you. it is good high quality stuff.
about measuring, please don't even try to use weight. or volume. weight is for those that don't have a decent meter. i only mentioned it earlier in the thread to help those that have scales but no meter.
i strongly suggest that you run your mix at a nice safe ec 1.5 for a while until you get used to jack's.
trust your meter and mix ec .9 jack's and ec .6 calcinit in ro water and watch your plants grow.
good luck! d9
first of all, all calcinit in this dry granular form is basically the same, 15.5-0-0-19. i personally am using the yara brand just like you. it is good high quality stuff.
about measuring, please don't even try to use weight. or volume. weight is for those that don't have a decent meter. i only mentioned it earlier in the thread to help those that have scales but no meter.
i strongly suggest that you run your mix at a nice safe ec 1.5 for a while until you get used to jack's.
trust your meter and mix ec .9 jack's and ec .6 calcinit in ro water and watch your plants grow.
good luck! d9
I'm currently running at 1.3 to 1.4. I have 5 gallon buckets in 5 gallon buckets. The bottom buckets are all connected with tubing. I have one bucket that has a pump which top waters 1 minute every hour. I water with 1.3 and the average EC in the pump bucket (which recirculates) is about 1.57. I have a dehumidifier so my room is usually about 45-50 rel hum.
I've never had such large plants before. I really dig this style. I plan to build an outdoor system that will contain my fruit trees in 5 gallon buckets as well.
I've never had such large plants before. I really dig this style. I plan to build an outdoor system that will contain my fruit trees in 5 gallon buckets as well.
