Straintalk and comparative anatomy

[wolfshade]

i really am diggin' this thread.
i've always thought that old "wives tale" about not being able to tell what strain you have by looking at the seed's was a load of horse doodie
perfect example earlier of the different oak types...do they all have the same acorn? NO

i think all it really takes is an in depth study of seed pattern, leaf shape/size/etc., overall plant structure...etc. etc. etc.
sure it's a lot of shit to sift through, but in the end...
the wealth of knowledge that is to be gained
can ONLY help breeders/growers worldwide

 

[BorgClone]

scribed im very interersted in al the relations i have a mistery strain i think grows near me for at least 2 generations. Im pulling my seat!

 

[Thule]

Thanks for interest Borgclone and wolfshade. Feel free to add your observations ands experiences, agree or disagree. Pictures are more than welcome!

I also have a pretty good eye for seeds, some are so unique you can tell them apart instantly. Keeping in mind that the original wild cannabis had small dark seeds, you can get an idea how much human hands have aided in selecting varieties like Thai or Rooibaard which both have very big seeds.

Equally unique are the seedlings. Some strains have deep purple (hehe) stems at first, but get green as the plant matures, some start green and finish red. The size, color and width of the first set of true leaves is sometimes a dead give away with landraces, they vary that much. (Try telling apart two commercial hybrids from seedlings..)

Here's a little anecdotal evidence on the relationship between Malawi and Central Asia:

The same leaf trait in Darwins Mazar i Shariff.

I'm not saying the Malawi is an indica, but maybe they are related. The MIS I grew had lots of narrow leaf phenotypes and seems like a very diverse strain having mixed with the local sativas and imported hashplants.

"Arab traders" were to my knowledge not just Arabs, but Persians as well, linking them to the area now known as Iran and Afghanistan (the dari).

 

[Thule]

Speaking of seedlings, here's Malawi Gold:

And some Ethiopian highlands which grew quite diffrently:

 

[wolfshade]

so i've come across two interesting seeds lately
one has that "puckered" look on the "stem" end of the seed
the other has like a massive ridge running length-wise of the seed
most look like a rounded "V" shaped a few are damn near triangular

anyone else seen this feature on other seeds...and could maybe shed some light on what they might be?
one of these days i'll get of my lazy stoner ass and get back to growing, and take some pics....but...i'm in no rush...lol

 

[Thule]

so i've come across two interesting seeds lately
one has that "puckered" look on the "stem" end of the seed
the other has like a massive ridge running length-wise of the seed
most look like a rounded "V" shaped a few are damn near triangular

anyone else seen this feature on other seeds...and could maybe shed some light on what they might be?
one of these days i'll get of my lazy stoner ass and get back to growing, and take some pics....but...i'm in no rush...lol

Where did you get those seeds? Bagseed?

That "puckered" look is a primitive trait, they might come from a sativa dominant plant. The ridge means quite the opposite, common in big seeded and gighly domesticated varieties like Chinese strains and some strains in Africa. Also fiber hemp...

What are the colors like?

 

[Baba Ku]

When I was in my 20's my friends and I felt that the best weed we could grow was from very small seeds. The smaller and blacker the better. Most all of the weed we could get was chock full of seeds, and we would spend time searching out the small ones, especially in pre-paraquat mexicans.
But we were young and impressionable.

I have seen a plant put out seeds that were nearly all identical, and I have seen a single plant put out a variety of sized seeds. I have also seen some modern hybrids put out differing sized seeds from the same plant. I remember seeing three different sized seeds in an old pack of SamSK's gear.
Although there is usually a theme, I now have the opinion that we cannot judge much at all about the genetic disposition of a plant by it's seed size.
I also think that although the same theme may exist, it is also hard to discern a plant by the markings of the seed.

Just as the plant can show differing growth patterns by simply experiencing different growing conditions, so can seeds differ. I find very compelling evidence of this by the fact that we can, to a certain extent, control the characteristics of the seeds. In that I mean that by simply manipulating the nutrient levels of a seed bearing plant, we can produce seeds that differ from one another dramatically.
A plant being used for seed that is fed heavy, as you would a flowering plant used for smoke, will put out very thick, tough shelled seeds. These can be very hard to germinate as the shells seem to not want to open up, even when the embryo wants it to. While seeds from the same clone that has not been fed anything at all will be much easier to pop, and will often have a slightly different look to them than the ones from the heavy fed plant.

Seeing these things over the years have led me to believe that there is far less that can be gleaned from the looks of seeds than we often think.

Same thing for leaves...
Yes, there are several different variety of oak tree, and each one can positively be identified by the shape of it's leaf. But, how many oak hybrids are there? I mean, you can grow a pin oak grove right next to a southern oak grove and never the two will mix.
Not so with cannabis. They ALL intermingle with one another, and that fact alone makes it clear that identifying specific traits and genetic makeup from the leaves alone would be a hard thing to do.

The genome needs to be mapped. Then we can stop speculating.

 

[Thule]

The genome needs to be mapped. Then we can stop speculating.

Yes. But since that is not happening any time soon let us entertain ourselves with what we have.

Seed size is indeed affected by it's location in the plant (bigger ones close to the main stem) and nutrients, but the shape of the seed as well as color pretty much stays the same.

 

[englishrick]

ive noticed that plants grown in hydro seem to produce massive calax and that seems to reflect on seedsize,,

 

[wolfshade]

yeah both are bagseed
i tend to enjoy bagseed...even though it's more of a crapshoot with what you're going to get
and even sometimes just get shitty genetics....for me it's kinda like christmas...not really sure what's in the big shiny box, but one way or the other you know you're going to like the present inside

the somewhat smaller puckered seeds are minimally streaked with DARK brown almost black streaks
the "field" is somewhat grey in tone

the larger ridged seeds have a rich brownish streaking (more streaks than the other, smaller ones)
and the ridges of the two shell halves are rather pronounced and even somewhat splayed out so as to flatten the seed in appearance
and yes this herb was HEAVILY seeded

i'll get pics soon
now if can just remember where i left that macro lens!
damn stoner...can't even put my camera gear back in the bag....lol

i'd be more than happy to map the cannbis genome from sativa to ruderalis
who wants to pay for the equipment?! XD

 

[Thule]

I'm so drunk

 

[elmanito]

I'm so drunk

I'm not surprised

Namaste

 

[Thule]

I'm not surprised

Namaste

Good idea to come here at 5 o clock in the morning drunk out of my mind

 

[Rinse]

I was thinking can we map out regions with types of stones, similarities in effects?

 

[Thule]

I was thinking can we map out regions with types of stones, similarities in effects?

I haven't smoked anough strains myself to achieve that, but I am working on a map with the mains physical types. It get's surprisingly complicated with wild and domestic lines which often overlap.

 

[Rinse]

I haven't smoked anough strains myself to achieve that, but I am working on a map with the mains physical types. It get's surprisingly complicated with wild and domestic lines which often overlap.

Me neither smoked enough lol, maybe if everyone can chip in though, would be interesting.

 

[Thule]

Most people draw a line between INDICA and SATIVA, but what exactly is an INDICA?


I think we can all agree that they are generally the wide leaf dominant desert types known for their generous budding and short flowering time. The effect is often regarded as a stone, rather than a high. There are however exceptions which make classifying surprisingly hard.

Not all wideleafs are indicas, certainly not Afganicas. Not all indicas are wideleafs.

Where do strains like Lebanese and Highland Thai stand on the indica scale?

Lebanese are often short plants with good yields and good drought resistance but have rather narrow leaves.

Highland Thai seems related to Yunnanese strains and can have dark WIDE ASS leaves and a narcotic high accompanied with an astronomical flowering time. SamS is convinced Yunnan is the original home of both Thai and Afghanica.

Not to mention Pakistan / Hindu Kush. These plants often grow to huge bushes and compared to the Mazaris below, have dark very shiny leaves and distinct resinous buds.

Here's a mazar i shariff:

This line had some red stemmed sativa phenotypes in it and I think it's safe to assume these Afganicas are a very heterozygous population, in other words a polyhybrid in nature.

What types constitututed to a classical Afghani? Could one come up with a 'squat indica' crossing non indica lines from different parts of Asia? Or was the Afghanica phenotype born in Central Asia to begin with?

Discuss!

 

[Rinse]

Thule, where do you think cannabis originated from?

 

[Thule]

Thule, where do you think cannabis originated from?

Haven't made up my mind yet really, the oldest traces of cannabis have been found in North Eastern China and Turkey..

Kazakhstan could be a good guess but I don't think it is possible to pin point any certain location. Botanists look into hot spots in diversity and in Kazakhstan there are ruderalis, indica, sativa and hemp almost side by side.

 

[Thule]

I made this VERY rough map to get a better perspective of things.

The grey area circled below is an area where the wild schwaggy ruderalis type is abundant. The area stretches from Central Europe (Slovakia, Czech Repulblic, Austria) to Eastern Siberia. The southernmost populations have a higher frequency of the THC producing BT allele, and grow taller than their northern cousins. Not all populations will autoflower, but in the northernmost parts it is necessary.

The area in black is supposed to roughly present the area where the 'indicas' are being grown for their hashis. Now if you feel the area stretches beyond that in Asia, let's fix it.

Any way you put it, there's overlapping. I don't think Afganistan has any autoflowering populations but what you have is wild narrow leaf 'sativas' growing up on the hills.